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 Conrad Turner wrote:
Darth,

Wouldn't it be, given GW's recent reported behaviour, like Walkers saying "Supermarket 'A' can select enough of our product that they can freely choose which varieties they stock, and how much, because they are ordering way over our self-imposed minimum quantities. Supermarket 'A' will be told of upcoming competitions, promotions, and other product changes up to 3 months ahead of release date. Corner shop 'Z', however, does not order enough so the following conditions must be met.

1. Corner shop 'Z' is not allowed to sell any "Roast Chicken" flavour, our most popular, until they have sold x packets of "Cheese and Onion" as that is the flavour we want to push.

Granted this doesn't really apply to food retailers but some other retailers do actually do this and specially select stores to host their products.

2. On release of a new flavour, corner shop 'Z' will be required to place an order within 2 weeks of flavour notification, but will not be suppled with advertising until 2 weeks before release date, and may not use this advertising or otherwise notify potential customers until 5 days before release date. Minimum order quantity applies, but orders may not be fulfilled in their entirety. (Order 6 cases, we may drop off 4 bags.)

Technically speaking when it comes to food products you don't know about them until they have been released. As soon as you see the advert on the telly for them that is when they are available in store.

3. No corner shop will sell multipacks to people suspected of splitting these down for re-sale, nor will they sell single packs to persons suspected of selling on single crisps. (condition not enforcable for supermarkets)

It does say on multipacks the phrase "Not to be sold separately". This can be seen on crisps as well as canned drinks like Coca Cola.

4. Any corner shop found to be in breach of these conditions wil forfeit status and will be required to buy product at higher cost for a period not less than 6 months

Its not illegal to sell multiple pack items separately. Manufacturers just don't want the shops to sell them separately, so they dictate the terms to them. If said retailers fail to comply to a reasonable standard then the manufacturers won't be happy with them. They allow it for reduced items to clear (i.e. Damaged product with a missing piece, like a four pack of Beer that has only 3 cans, but obviously at a reduced price).

P.S. That goes double for corner shops tenously connected to pidgeon fanciers who can use homing pidgeons to send messages to other areas about rumored new flavours, pack designs, ad campaigns, etc. - added mid-year to stomp down on imagined problemI find it inexplicable that GW seem to be doing all they can to destroy their own reputation, margin, market share, etc. I'm certainly moving over to Kettle Chips in future!

Well it didn't damage the reputation of crisp and fizzy drink sellers. For the most part people just didn't care.

When I started, they used to print the order codes for the latest models in the back of the WD every month. Not just of the whole models, but of the pieces. Converting stuff was just a matter of phoning them, giving them the codes for the bits you wanted, paying them, and they turned up in the post. Now whilst I am fully aware of the problems that caused them, and the fact that you just can't do that with Styrene frames unless you sell the entire frame, how many people are seriously going to buy 'x' number of packs to get the 'y' number of parts they need? So bits sites sprang up. Not content with having people outside of GW taking the risk that certain bits won't sell, GW wants to stop all this trade - oblivious that whilst people may be prepared to buy a set or two of Valk engines for a completely unrelated modelling project, £40-£80 for three or four engines and a load of (to them) useless bits is way out of reality.

Exactly like what the food retailers did. They didn't like that their products were being split up and sold separately so they dictated terms to the retailers. Even though it is not illegal for retailers to do this I might add.

And how many GD winners in the last 10 years have been Out-Of-Box models with standard posing? Not many, I bet. (OK, maybe a glut from this year's Warhammer Skink, but in general I believe you need a converted model to stand much of a chance.)

Thats true. You certainly need something special to win GD. I did like the Tau Armies on Parade with the working water fountain though.

The reality of the situation GW are seeming to want to put themselves in, seems counter-productive to me. Allow bits sellers and you encourage imagination and creativity whilst expanding your target demographic through social media sites, like this one, as people share their creations made from <gasp> your product! after all, if I go to a bits site to buy the engines I want, where did he get the kit from? So if GW's finances rely on getting every penny profit from every single kit, someone needs to point out that 5% on 100 sales is better than 7% on 20 sales.

Well I prefer to be able to get bits separately myself and at least food companies do tend to sell their stuff in singles also, so perhaps its not such a big deal when food companies do it. I'm not saying I like what GW do in these kind of instances but I tend to not really care about how they dictate the terms of their own products, because its their bag to do so. If they end up hurting themselves in the process then thats their fault.

I would hate to see this hobby go bust and for GW to go out of buisness but at the end of the day they make their choices when it comes to marketing for better or worse. I don't have a big problem with them wanting a say about how their products get sold on. However I did think it was ridiculous that they wanted to claim trademark for the term Space Marine. However I am a lot more forgiven than a lot of other people, so I chalk it up as a mistake they made and move on.

As to their idea that impulse buying is the key to their success, that would work better - and indeed did work better - when you could get a rhino for £5 or 3 for £10. With the cost of the stuff they produce now - and it is undoubtedly better quality than the RTB01 era - running to anything up to £70 for something you may need multiples of in an army, I don't know of many people who could honestly say they could afford to drop even the cost of one as an 'Impulse' purchase. I recently had to replace my portable DVD player, and it cost £70 to get one with a bigger screen and better functions, but I knew the old one was playing up so started to save £1 coins. By the time I had to actually look for the replacement, I had more than enough to do so. I could comfortably look for a replacement, judge each on it's merits, and make an informed decision.

There is a kid down at our store who always ends up with these kind of impulse buys. He plays in the apocalypse games with the Vets and whenever anyone has a toy that does something really amazing you can bet he will have it within a few weeks. He did this with the flying necron croissant. He saw it in a game and two weeks later he had 3 of his own.

I told him at the weekend there he actually needs to invest in an army and not just buy all the unique toys and not to be fooled by the idea that apocalypse is all about just bringing the uber units you want to the field. Although yes you can do that, having an army is better for synergy. Having an ally is OK too, but its just no good buying individual units with no thought about how they are going to work together.

I truly believe that GW make some of the best models in '28mm' out there. I have both Tau and Necron armies, and would have loved to update the both of them. But I cannot bring myself to buy a single tomb spider or Riptide as I believe that the GW management are trying to comit financial suicide - as has been ponted out previously GW is growing by a few percent in a market growing by much larger amounts, even in this economy - and I believe anything that drags out their demise at this point is just being cruel.

I do worry about their long term future. The fact that they had to downsize a lot of stores shows this. They have been struggling for quite a few years now and they are desparate to protect their IP because they think this has something to do with their downturn. I honestly believe that they are struggling to compete because of the reasons I stated earlier. Their overheads compared to other companies is hurting them drastically and I believe its the reason for all the downsizing. Heck, they even downsized Games Day this year.

 DarthOvious wrote:
[
I do worry about their long term future. The fact that they had to downsize a lot of stores shows this. They have been struggling for quite a few years now and they are desparate to protect their IP because they think this has something to do with their downturn. I honestly believe that they are struggling to compete because of the reasons I stated earlier. Their overheads compared to other companies is hurting them drastically and I believe its the reason for all the downsizing. Heck, they even downsized Games Day this year.

Downsizing is a pretty standard way of increasing profits on paper... have less people to pay, the more money you make. It's usually a short term solution.

Brother Weasel wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
[
I do worry about their long term future. The fact that they had to downsize a lot of stores shows this. They have been struggling for quite a few years now and they are desparate to protect their IP because they think this has something to do with their downturn. I honestly believe that they are struggling to compete because of the reasons I stated earlier. Their overheads compared to other companies is hurting them drastically and I believe its the reason for all the downsizing. Heck, they even downsized Games Day this year.

Downsizing is a pretty standard way of increasing profits on paper... have less people to pay, the more money you make. It's usually a short term solution.

True, its also a sign that they don't need the staff in the shops anymore because they receive less custom. Perhaps more people are buying from the net rather than going to the store, so that means less staff in the store. Probably another potential problem really. If you don't need the staff in store but the store is where all the gaming action is then it creates a problem.

I still think its a big problem for GW that some online retailers can offer 20% off the price, because this then means more people buy off those retailers rather than GW and this could hit their profit margins. Don't get me wrong I have bought from those retailers in the past also so I am not having a dig. I am just making an observation in regards to the buisness. How can GW maintain the stores and their investment in their future products if their profit margins decrease because customers buy off other retailers rather than them.

 DarthOvious wrote:

Brother Weasel wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
[
I do worry about their long term future. The fact that they had to downsize a lot of stores shows this. They have been struggling for quite a few years now and they are desparate to protect their IP because they think this has something to do with their downturn. I honestly believe that they are struggling to compete because of the reasons I stated earlier. Their overheads compared to other companies is hurting them drastically and I believe its the reason for all the downsizing. Heck, they even downsized Games Day this year.

Downsizing is a pretty standard way of increasing profits on paper... have less people to pay, the more money you make. It's usually a short term solution.

True, its also a sign that they don't need the staff in the shops anymore because they receive less custom. Perhaps more people are buying from the net rather than going to the store, so that means less staff in the store. Probably another potential problem really. If you don't need the staff in store but the store is where all the gaming action is then it creates a problem.

I still think its a big problem for GW that some online retailers can offer 20% off the price, because this then means more people buy off those retailers rather than GW and this could hit their profit margins. Don't get me wrong I have bought from those retailers in the past also so I am not having a dig. I am just making an observation in regards to the buisness. How can GW maintain the stores and their investment in their future products if their profit margins decrease because customers buy off other retailers rather than them.

Indeed, The stores didn't make enough money to justify the amount of people they had, at least localy, I know my local store makes more profit then they used to, they sell a little less, but they don't pay 5 people anymore. I was speaking from a pure busines standpoint of cutting people increasing profits, more so if they are cuting no retail outlet people, but then it depends on the business.

If GW cared about people offering 20% discounts, they would jack up their prices to independents or deal with it through trade agreements, plenty of places have set price points. (Apple)

Brother Weasel wrote:

Indeed, The stores didn't make enough money to justify the amount of people they had, at least localy, I know my local store makes more profit then they used to, they sell a little less, but they don't pay 5 people anymore. I was speaking from a pure busines standpoint of cutting people increasing profits, more so if they are cuting no retail outlet people, but then it depends on the business.

Agreed.

If GW cared about people offering 20% discounts, they would jack up their prices to independents or deal with it through trade agreements, plenty of places have set price points. (Apple)

I thought this was what they were doing with their trade agreements anyway. They won't be allowed to specify what price the independent retailers can sell on for but they have been clearly unhappy with the website stores for a long time now. I thought part of the last trade agreement was you needed a brick and mortar store in order to be able to sell GW products on to the public. I remember Matt from Miniwargaming stating this in their video on the last trade agreement. I think Wayland Games do actually have a brick and mortor store that they also sell from, but its just that most of their trade is done from over the internet.

I'm just going to take a moment to congratulate everyone on the quality of discussion in this thread, by pg 11 in most threads about GW being "a bit odd" the name calling and faeces slinging is well underway!

GW isn't going anywhere. All the prophecies of its doom I've heard in the last 15 years have been proved false, and yet there's always people like you lot making them, convincing yourself that no, this time it's different. Bollocks. You're not special, GW hasn't gone off the deep end lately, nothing's substantially different than it was in 1997 when people were worried about 3E destroying 40k as a game. Kickstarters, garage companies, resin kit makers or these forums might as well not exist as far as GW bottom line is concerned.

That doesn't mean they're nice. They are not nice. Some call them bullies. Maybe. But they endure. They're not great games designers, great miniatures designers, great at PR or even great at storytelling. They're like one of those WWE wrestlers with no flashy moves, speed, charisma or obvious talent for entertainment, but who can stand there in the ring and take fifty hits without feeling it.

Games Workshop is the Big Show of wargaming

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
GW isn't going anywhere. All the prophecies of its doom I've heard in the last 15 years have been proved false, and yet there's always people like you lot making them, convincing yourself that no, this time it's different. Bollocks. You're not special, GW hasn't gone off the deep end lately, nothing's substantially different than it was in 1997 when people were worried about 3E destroying 40k as a game. Kickstarters, garage companies, resin kit makers or these forums might as well not exist as far as GW bottom line is concerned.

That doesn't mean they're nice. They are not nice. Some call them bullies. Maybe. But they endure. They're not great games designers, great miniatures designers, great at PR or even great at storytelling. They're like one of those WWE wrestlers with no flashy moves, speed, charisma or obvious talent for entertainment, but who can stand there in the ring and take fifty hits without feeling it.

Games Workshop is the Big Show of wargaming

More like Al Snow...

I would disagree on the mini designers part, They arn't 100% but They do a lot of good. (what ais good is purly in the eye of the beholder though, yo umay like... say... PP minis, that i persoanly can't stand... neither of us would be right or wrong) The do however have a good hold on how to make minis, and when the feel like it, how to make minis that can be customized well (DE, original SM etc)

The reason why GW needs to keep the retail shops going is because the shops and White Dwarf are their only forms of marketing apart from word of mouth from existing players.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The reason why GW needs to keep the retail shops going is because the shops and White Dwarf are their only forms of marketing apart from word of mouth from existing players.

there are not enough retail shops (in the US) to consider it advertising... I live in California, My GW store is the farthest one north, and I live about 9 hours from Oregon... that's about what, the UK in distance?

 azreal13 wrote:
I'm just going to take a moment to congratulate everyone on the quality of discussion in this thread, by pg 11 in most threads about GW being "a bit odd" the name calling and faeces slinging is well underway!

There is still time yet to have it devolve into a monkey fight.

I just wanted to add. Don't jinx it.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
GW isn't going anywhere. All the prophecies of its doom I've heard in the last 15 years have been proved false, and yet there's always people like you lot making them, convincing yourself that no, this time it's different. Bollocks. You're not special, GW hasn't gone off the deep end lately, nothing's substantially different than it was in 1997 when people were worried about 3E destroying 40k as a game. Kickstarters, garage companies, resin kit makers or these forums might as well not exist as far as GW bottom line is concerned.

That doesn't mean they're nice. They are not nice. Some call them bullies. Maybe. But they endure. They're not great games designers, great miniatures designers, great at PR or even great at storytelling. They're like one of those WWE wrestlers with no flashy moves, speed, charisma or obvious talent for entertainment, but who can stand there in the ring and take fifty hits without feeling it.

Games Workshop is the Big Show of wargaming

What do you mean by "us lot." You may hold a different opinion, but you're still "one of us"

The fact is, back in 2nd/3rd 40K, there really wasn't a viable alternative. Sure, there were other games, but they came and went, my miniature shelves back in the day were littered with models from games that simply hadn't stayed the course.

Fast forward 15 or so years, and my return to gaming after not rolling a dice since early third, and the market is a very different place. Hell, you can even look back at my gaming club from its founding in early 2012 to see a difference. We started as almost exclusively 40K, with the odd game of Fantasy or Specialist Game to break things up.

Last night, one could have turned up cold and still had a good chance of a game of Infinity, Warmahordes, or X Wing. Sure, GW's games are still popular, but in the span of less than two years they've gone from literally the only game in town to just one among many. Is my club an anomaly? Possibly, but my interactions with gamers from other towns nearby and on Dakka suggest that it probably isn't the case.

That's the difference between now and then. No longer is a tabletop wargamer more or less obliged to play a GW game in order to have anything but the slightest chance of getting a game. There are established, popular, high quality alternatives that are, either anecdotally or definitively growing larger and larger, and in 25 years around this hobby, even when I wasn't playing I still kept a toe in, I can't think of a time when this was ever the case.

Also, as the technology gets more accessible and with the advent of Kickstarter, the barrier to entry has never been lower, if you have a quality product or idea, the only thing you really need is the passion and diligence to get your idea out there, no longer do you need to be beholden to men in grey suits who don't understand the market or need to find ££££ in capital to fund equipment.

Having said all that, fundamentally, I agree with your main point. GW won't die, implode or whatever, they're too big and too stable for theirs to be a quick and honourable death, they will stagger around, crying, with snot running out of their nose a long time before they're in any serious danger, but being a publicly owned company, catching that sort of cold will ultimately precipitate change, or Kirby retires, whichever happens first can't happen soon enough for this poster, and maybe whoever takes over can recapture a little bit of what took GW to the top in the first place.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
GW isn't going anywhere. All the prophecies of its doom I've heard in the last 15 years have been proved false, and yet there's always people like you lot making them, convincing yourself that no, this time it's different. Bollocks. You're not special, GW hasn't gone off the deep end lately, nothing's substantially different than it was in 1997 when people were worried about 3E destroying 40k as a game. Kickstarters, garage companies, resin kit makers or these forums might as well not exist as far as GW bottom line is concerned.

True, none of those things happened in the past. We are however in a diificult period economically. GW will probably survive like they usually do as do most companies but every now and again a high street store does go out of buisness.

That doesn't mean they're nice. They are not nice. Some call them bullies. Maybe. But they endure. They're not great games designers, great miniatures designers, great at PR or even great at storytelling. They're like one of those WWE wrestlers with no flashy moves, speed, charisma or obvious talent for entertainment, but who can stand there in the ring and take fifty hits without feeling it.

Games Workshop is the Big Show of wargaming

Agreed, GW are the biggest company at the moment. All we can do is hope they get smarter with their buisness practices.

Brother Weasel wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The reason why GW needs to keep the retail shops going is because the shops and White Dwarf are their only forms of marketing apart from word of mouth from existing players.

there are not enough retail shops (in the US) to consider it advertising... I live in California, My GW store is the farthest one north, and I live about 9 hours from Oregon... that's about what, the UK in distance?

I agree, however it still is their only form of marketing other than WD and word of mouth.

That is why it's a bit strange to crack down on word of mouth channels like YouTubers, blogs and forum sites.

Brother Weasel wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The reason why GW needs to keep the retail shops going is because the shops and White Dwarf are their only forms of marketing apart from word of mouth from existing players.

there are not enough retail shops (in the US) to consider it advertising... I live in California, My GW store is the farthest one north, and I live about 9 hours from Oregon... that's about what, the UK in distance?

Wow, what a distance to travel. Obviously I live in the UK and as I have said already I have two GW stores I go to. There is a local one where I live and one I get the train to on a Saturday because they do an Apocalypse session in the afternoon. There are others as well that I don't go to I could if I wanted to.

 DarthOvious wrote:
There is a kid down at our store who always ends up with these kind of impulse buys. He plays in the apocalypse games with the Vets and whenever anyone has a toy that does something really amazing you can bet he will have it within a few weeks. He did this with the flying necron croissant. He saw it in a game and two weeks later he had 3 of his own.

I told him at the weekend there he actually needs to invest in an army and not just buy all the unique toys and not to be fooled by the idea that apocalypse is all about just bringing the uber units you want to the field. Although yes you can do that, having an army is better for synergy. Having an ally is OK too, but its just no good buying individual units with no thought about how they are going to work together.

I truly believe that GW make some of the best models in '28mm' out there. I have both Tau and Necron armies, and would have loved to update the both of them. But I cannot bring myself to buy a single tomb spider or Riptide as I believe that the GW management are trying to comit financial suicide - as has been ponted out previously GW is growing by a few percent in a market growing by much larger amounts, even in this economy - and I believe anything that drags out their demise at this point is just being cruel.

I do worry about their long term future. The fact that they had to downsize a lot of stores shows this. They have been struggling for quite a few years now and they are desparate to protect their IP because they think this has something to do with their downturn. I honestly believe that they are struggling to compete because of the reasons I stated earlier. Their overheads compared to other companies is hurting them drastically and I believe its the reason for all the downsizing. Heck, they even downsized Games Day this year.

Well GW have taken someone who spent a significant slice of his disposable income on their product - I have a total of 4 armies (SM, Nids, Tau and Necron in that order of purchase IIRC) none of which are 'current' models except a single Necron flyer and Doomsday Ark. both of those were bought as modelling projects only. I also used to paint everything with GW rattlecan primer and GW paint. Yes, Everything. Horizon Arnie T-800 from Terminator 2, Elvira, Finemoulds 1:72 scale TIE fighter and TIE Interceptor. Everything.

Now, due to increased costs and reports of behaviour I find inexplicable for a business, I have absolute zero interest in anything they produce. I will still work on stuff I already have, including a 5 man squad of inquisitor scale marines, but will not get anything further from them. I am changing all my paints to Vallejo (And will use those to paint whatever GW stuff I already own that is either not actually painted yet, or due a repaint to get it up to my current standard.), have bought Rosemary & Co brushes, and am turning to other manufacturers such as DreamForge Games for my models.

As GW don't make much profit from rules systems - the only reason they 'update' games like WH40K is to get a better chance at releasing new models - it seems puzzling to seem them attempt to cut off the modelling community with such spite. As has been said before, information leads purchasers to make informed choices. You cut off that information and you run the risk of having customers decide to spend there money somewhere they are getting told what they need to save for. You start a community based on "You can do whatever you like", then remove all options to (Economically) do that, expect a downturn in sales. And yes, 40K WAS originally "Do what you like". In the original RT book, they showed you how to make a grav tank for the imperium using an old deodourant bottle and a plastic spoon. (I wonder how "Blue Peter" would have taken it if GW had used "Sticky-backed plastic" in that model? ) White Dwarf used to contain adverts for other companies models.

I don't see GW doing that now, presumably because they don't have the confidence that their stuff is, on a good day at least, better than that. And yet, I do love the design of the Riptide, I'd like to get one - and the eldar equivalent, and a load of other stuff - but I will not be part of the problem here. And that's too many people saying to GW "Your tactics and prices are acceptable. You know this because we are still buying from you despite whatever pressure you put on independants, nor whatever prices you charge, nor whatever restrictions you put up to retailers to make their jobs harder, nor even the (reported) removal of hobby space in your own stores will stop us from slobbering all over your windows every time you deign to go 'Shinies! Look at all the new shinies!' because you decide to cull all information about a release except an unfeasibly small window just before release."

so yes, it's my fault for wanting those heady days of GW being in the business of supplying what I wanted over today's "You'll get what we say you want, when we say you want it, paying whatever we think we can get away with charging for it." and I'm hoping that by removing my spending from their accounts I can add my voice to those others who are yelling, pleading, and cajoling GW to take a step back from the precipice.

I have a feeling that, if they get to a point where they are finacialy failing (not pushing numbers around so they seam like they are doing ok, but losing money to the shareholders) there will be a change... look at microsoft.... they have big falures, they dump the CEO and look for a change.... but that's probably not going to happen if money is still paid out nicley.

 azreal13 wrote:

What do you mean by "us lot." You may hold a different opinion, but you're still "one of us"

The fact is, back in 2nd/3rd 40K, there really wasn't a viable alternative. Sure, there were other games, but they came and went, my miniature shelves back in the day were littered with models from games that simply hadn't stayed the course.

Fast forward 15 or so years, and my return to gaming after not rolling a dice since early third, and the market is a very different place. Hell, you can even look back at my gaming club from its founding in early 2012 to see a difference. We started as almost exclusively 40K, with the odd game of Fantasy or Specialist Game to break things up.

Last night, one could have turned up cold and still had a good chance of a game of Infinity, Warmahordes, or X Wing. Sure, GW's games are still popular, but in the span of less than two years they've gone from literally the only game in town to just one among many. Is my club an anomaly? Possibly, but my interactions with gamers from other towns nearby and on Dakka suggest that it probably isn't the case.

That's the difference between now and then. No longer is a tabletop wargamer more or less obliged to play a GW game in order to have anything but the slightest chance of getting a game. There are established, popular, high quality alternatives that are, either anecdotally or definitively growing larger and larger, and in 25 years around this hobby, even when I wasn't playing I still kept a toe in, I can't think of a time when this was ever the case.

Also, as the technology gets more accessible and with the advent of Kickstarter, the barrier to entry has never been lower, if you have a quality product or idea, the only thing you really need is the passion and diligence to get your idea out there, no longer do you need to be beholden to men in grey suits who don't understand the market or need to find ££££ in capital to fund equipment.

Having said all that, fundamentally, I agree with your main point. GW won't die, implode or whatever, they're too big and too stable for theirs to be a quick and honourable death, they will stagger around, crying, with snot running out of their nose a long time before they're in any serious danger, but being a publicly owned company, catching that sort of cold will ultimately precipitate change, or Kirby retires, whichever happens first can't happen soon enough for this poster, and maybe whoever takes over can recapture a little bit of what took GW to the top in the first place.

My local gaming club has taken to playing Warmachine now. Personally I don't like it. It just doesn't look like a game that interests me. I have played X-Wing in the past though and I do like that although I don't actually own any X-Wing minis.

My biggest interest is still 40k. I do own some fantasy stuff as well. I also have some MTG decks as well and I own a copy of Death Angel (Space Hulk card game) and some expansion packs for it. Thats pretty much my interests when it comes to games other than computer games.

Ditto, I can't get excited about Warmahordes, by contrast a good gaming buddy of mine has gone evangelical about it and completely dropped GW. Horses for courses I guess.

I rate X Wing highly, Infinity is great too, although I've only played a handful of games. It's looking like a few of us may pick up Darklands too.

I will continue to play 40K, but I now modify my purchases to reduce any spending with GW to the absolute minimum, and once my current army is finished (itself composed of as many counts as models from other manufacturers as possible) it will take something spectacular for GW to get my gaming pound in the future.

 DarthOvious wrote:

Brother Weasel wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The reason why GW needs to keep the retail shops going is because the shops and White Dwarf are their only forms of marketing apart from word of mouth from existing players.

there are not enough retail shops (in the US) to consider it advertising... I live in California, My GW store is the farthest one north, and I live about 9 hours from Oregon... that's about what, the UK in distance?

Wow, what a distance to travel. Obviously I live in the UK and as I have said already I have two GW stores I go to. There is a local one where I live and one I get the train to on a Saturday because they do an Apocalypse session in the afternoon. There are others as well that I don't go to I could if I wanted to.

I actualy have 2 local to me... 15 min and 30 min away... but if i lived in Sacramento (my states capital) I would have to drive to Ventura (where my closest store is) and that's about 6 hours... the stores are also in hidden areas now (they used to be at the mall) I know why they moved out... that's why I don't think it's primarily advertising that they have stores.. the stores need to make profits or people get fired and stores close... If it was advertising primarily, then they wold be able to operate at a loss localy... (to a point of course)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:
Ditto, I can't get excited about Warmahordes, by contrast a good gaming buddy of mine has gone evangelical about it and completely dropped GW. Horses for courses I guess.

I rate X Wing highly, Infinity is great too, although I've only played a handful of games. It's looking like a few of us may pick up Darklands too.

I will continue to play 40K, but I now modify my purchases to reduce any spending with GW to the absolute minimum, and once my current army is finished (itself composed of as many counts as models from other manufacturers as possible) it will take something spectacular for GW to get my gaming pound in the future.

I hate the warmahordes minis...

Malifaux is fun, and i'm excited about robotech... but they are diffrent games then 40k.... Malifaux has small battles (mind you my first 2e game isn't happening till a week from sat) and robotech is purely my need to relive my youth through minis.... 40k is just fun for me... i play with the same people i've played since the beggining, and i go to the store for pick up games (there aren't pick up games or really anywhere else locally that we can just go play at)

GW will live, or die... but it will be a while... the large amount of material they have, books, games, minis and general wargaming exposure drives them on....my friends who only play 40k only buy what they need to play more these days, but they arent looking to play any other games either...IF gw died, they would just keep playing what they have and not move to another game... i have a few other friends who play every game under the sun...

I spend far less on 40k then i used to, but i wound't say it's because GW did anything, more that i have other priorities with my money. i've been doing this for 15 ish years, in that time i've developed more intrests then wargaming,

 Conrad Turner wrote:

Well GW have taken someone who spent a significant slice of his disposable income on their product - I have a total of 4 armies (SM, Nids, Tau and Necron in that order of purchase IIRC) none of which are 'current' models except a single Necron flyer and Doomsday Ark. both of those were bought as modelling projects only. I also used to paint everything with GW rattlecan primer and GW paint. Yes, Everything. Horizon Arnie T-800 from Terminator 2, Elvira, Finemoulds 1:72 scale TIE fighter and TIE Interceptor. Everything.

Now, due to increased costs and reports of behaviour I find inexplicable for a business, I have absolute zero interest in anything they produce. I will still work on stuff I already have, including a 5 man squad of inquisitor scale marines, but will not get anything further from them. I am changing all my paints to Vallejo (And will use those to paint whatever GW stuff I already own that is either not actually painted yet, or due a repaint to get it up to my current standard.), have bought Rosemary & Co brushes, and am turning to other manufacturers such as DreamForge Games for my models.

As is the case sometimes. It happens. sometimes customers shop elsewhere because they don't like a company's actions. I actually changed my mobile provider because I was dissatified with the way they dealt with an issue I had. Company's depend on keeping their customers and its all about keeping existing customers while bringing in new ones while maintaining a profit. Sometimes they just fail to satisfy everyone.

As GW don't make much profit from rules systems - the only reason they 'update' games like WH40K is to get a better chance at releasing new models - it seems puzzling to seem them attempt to cut off the modelling community with such spite. As has been said before, information leads purchasers to make informed choices. You cut off that information and you run the risk of having customers decide to spend there money somewhere they are getting told what they need to save for. You start a community based on "You can do whatever you like", then remove all options to (Economically) do that, expect a downturn in sales. And yes, 40K WAS originally "Do what you like". In the original RT book, they showed you how to make a grav tank for the imperium using an old deodourant bottle and a plastic spoon. (I wonder how "Blue Peter" would have taken it if GW had used "Sticky-backed plastic" in that model? ) White Dwarf used to contain adverts for other companies models.

Back in the good old days when GW wasn't a PLC. Unfortunately when a company becomes a PLC it also becomes more focussed on profits.

I don't see GW doing that now, presumably because they don't have the confidence that their stuff is, on a good day at least, better than that. And yet, I do love the design of the Riptide, I'd like to get one - and the eldar equivalent, and a load of other stuff - but I will not be part of the problem here. And that's too many people saying to GW "Your tactics and prices are acceptable. You know this because we are still buying from you despite whatever pressure you put on independants, nor whatever prices you charge, nor whatever restrictions you put up to retailers to make their jobs harder, nor even the (reported) removal of hobby space in your own stores will stop us from slobbering all over your windows every time you deign to go 'Shinies! Look at all the new shinies!' because you decide to cull all information about a release except an unfeasibly small window just before release."

It depends on a persons point of view in concerns to it all. As I have stated I don't have a problem with this particular incident. I did have a problem with the whole Space MArine trademark thing though, so I'm not saying that don't make bad decisions. They do. It just all depends on how many people take issue with what they do.

so yes, it's my fault for wanting those heady days of GW being in the business of supplying what I wanted over today's "You'll get what we say you want, when we say you want it, paying whatever we think we can get away with charging for it." and I'm hoping that by removing my spending from their accounts I can add my voice to those others who are yelling, pleading, and cajoling GW to take a step back from the precipice.

Thats the way to make a difference. If you are unhappy with a company then don't give them your money and its the exact same thing I would do. I'm just not in a position where I feel I would do that yet but who knows, perhaps GW will hack me off one day and I'll stop giving them my money as well.

Back in the good old days when GW wasn't a PLC. Unfortunately when a company becomes a PLC it also becomes more focussed on profits.

Believe me, that focus isn't exclusive to PLCs!

It is a truism that happy customers spend more though, which is why GW appearing so totally indifferent to the disillusionment of "us lot" is so baffling and frustrating to me, you don't pander to the crowd who will give you their business regardless, you focus on those that don't, in the hope that you will change their mind, your business will grow and you make more profit!

Brother Weasel wrote:


I would disagree on the mini designers part, They arn't 100% but They do a lot of good. (what ais good is purly in the eye of the beholder though, yo umay like... say... PP minis, that i persoanly can't stand... neither of us would be right or wrong) The do however have a good hold on how to make minis, and when the feel like it, how to make minis that can be customized well (DE, original SM etc)

I do wonder if current GW are really that good any more.

All the 'hit' new models are variations on the designs done by the people that created the games in the first place, the misses are nearly always where they stray from the well trodden path.

The Jes Goodwin/Naismith designs for space marines are really the foundation the whole thing is built on, aided by the lotr minis that were copies of the movie trilogy's designs.

Even the big monsters in fantasy are usually based on mythical tropes.

NoggintheNog wrote:

Brother Weasel wrote:


I would disagree on the mini designers part, They arn't 100% but They do a lot of good. (what ais good is purly in the eye of the beholder though, yo umay like... say... PP minis, that i persoanly can't stand... neither of us would be right or wrong) The do however have a good hold on how to make minis, and when the feel like it, how to make minis that can be customized well (DE, original SM etc)

I do wonder if current GW are really that good any more.

All the 'hit' new models are variations on the designs done by the people that created the games in the first place, the misses are nearly always where they stray from the well trodden path.

The Jes Goodwin/Naismith designs for space marines are really the foundation the whole thing is built on, aided by the lotr minis that were copies of the movie trilogy's designs.

Even the big monsters in fantasy are usually based on mythical tropes.

The necrons were splended, DE, splended, New eldar, Splended, the riptide, spended

 azreal13 wrote:

Back in the good old days when GW wasn't a PLC. Unfortunately when a company becomes a PLC it also becomes more focussed on profits.

Believe me, that focus isn't exclusive to PLCs!

It is a truism that happy customers spend more though, which is why GW appearing so totally indifferent to the disillusionment of "us lot" is so baffling and frustrating to me, you don't pander to the crowd who will give you their business regardless, you focus on those that don't, in the hope that you will change their mind, your business will grow and you make more profit!

Agreed. Happy customers spend more money. However we all know how that companies in general have a hard time meeting this philosophy. Pretty much most of the mobile phone companies here in the UK are generally regarded as rubbish. O2 seem to be labelled the best of a bad bunch.

Its up to the other modelling compnaies to hit GW where it hurts. Some people believe they are successful in that regard while others don't.

Brother Weasel wrote:


The necrons were splended, DE, splended, New eldar, Splended, the riptide, spended

All of which are based on designs paradigms set out at least a decade ago, and even twice that.

There are nice models in those ranges, but nice because they are recognisably Tau, Eldar or Necron perhaps?

The true creativity moved on from the company a long time ago, Blanch and Goodwin excepted,and I'm not entirely sure the current design team are really superior to anyone else out there any longer, they just have a better canvas to begin with.

 insaniak wrote:
They have stated publicly why they try to clamp down on rumours and advance showing of their product, and it's nothing to do with competitors stealing their thunder. It's because despite all rational evidence to the contrary (including sales from their own subsidiaries), they believe that not knowing that something is coming makes people more excited about it (and this more likely to buy it) when it is released.

It's lunacy, plain and simple.

In fairness, purchases of WD went up 10% when they started clamping down on leaks. I wouldn't be surpised if they had some sales figures that back up the "impulse purchase" opinion.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

NoggintheNog wrote:

Brother Weasel wrote:


The necrons were splended, DE, splended, New eldar, Splended, the riptide, spended

All of which are based on designs paradigms set out at least a decade ago, and even twice that.

There are nice models in those ranges, but nice because they are recognisably Tau, Eldar or Necron perhaps?

The true creativity moved on from the company a long time ago, Blanch and Goodwin excepted,and I'm not entirely sure the current design team are really superior to anyone else out there any longer, they just have a better canvas to begin with.

So they should reinvent the wheel? Create something that doesn't fit with the design aesthetic? Create a new race... oh wait then everyone would complain that they havn't finished the old...

The DE (albeit years ago) are diffrent then thier other minis, usre there are design cues... same with the crons, the fliers, the arks the barges, they didn't exist anywhere (well the scythe is pretty battlestar0 the new eldar, sure they have a lot of cues form the older ones, but then they should... the way the Knight goes to geather is amazing, as is th ability to pose it... same with the riptide..

Brother Weasel wrote:

NoggintheNog wrote:

Brother Weasel wrote:


The necrons were splended, DE, splended, New eldar, Splended, the riptide, spended

All of which are based on designs paradigms set out at least a decade ago, and even twice that.

There are nice models in those ranges, but nice because they are recognisably Tau, Eldar or Necron perhaps?

The true creativity moved on from the company a long time ago, Blanch and Goodwin excepted,and I'm not entirely sure the current design team are really superior to anyone else out there any longer, they just have a better canvas to begin with.

So they should reinvent the wheel? Create something that doesn't fit with the design aesthetic? Create a new race... oh wait then everyone would complain that they havn't finished the old...

The DE (albeit years ago) are diffrent then thier other minis, usre there are design cues... same with the crons, the fliers, the arks the barges, they didn't exist anywhere (well the scythe is pretty battlestar0 the new eldar, sure they have a lot of cues form the older ones, but then they should... the way the Knight goes to geather is amazing, as is th ability to pose it... same with the riptide..

Personally I love the new Riptide. In saying that the Forgeworld model is an absolute cracker as well. I picked one up at games day.

 DarthOvious wrote:

Brother Weasel wrote:

NoggintheNog wrote:

Brother Weasel wrote:


The necrons were splended, DE, splended, New eldar, Splended, the riptide, spended

All of which are based on designs paradigms set out at least a decade ago, and even twice that.

There are nice models in those ranges, but nice because they are recognisably Tau, Eldar or Necron perhaps?

The true creativity moved on from the company a long time ago, Blanch and Goodwin excepted,and I'm not entirely sure the current design team are really superior to anyone else out there any longer, they just have a better canvas to begin with.

So they should reinvent the wheel? Create something that doesn't fit with the design aesthetic? Create a new race... oh wait then everyone would complain that they havn't finished the old...

The DE (albeit years ago) are diffrent then thier other minis, usre there are design cues... same with the crons, the fliers, the arks the barges, they didn't exist anywhere (well the scythe is pretty battlestar0 the new eldar, sure they have a lot of cues form the older ones, but then they should... the way the Knight goes to geather is amazing, as is th ability to pose it... same with the riptide..

Personally I love the new Riptide. In saying that the Forgeworld model is an absolute cracker as well. I picked one up at games day.

i don't like the tau look personanly, but the model is well put togeather... the new FW one looks better to me