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 PsychoticStorm wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:


But it's a lot juicier if you lie and pretend they were trying to copyright roman numerals as an isolated concept. Anybody can relate to that! They've existed for thousands of years! Scandalous

That's a big if and a huge assumption that everybody here mentioning it is really lying, you can of course go like everybody else follow the trial read the transcripts and form your won opinion, see the charts and the notes on what they claimed it was their, read the experts reports and the discussion by forum members there, inducing actual layers.

Or you can assume everybody here is purposefully lie.

Considering what happens any and every time Matt Ward is rumored to be writing an upcoming book?

Yeah. It's not unfair to assume that people purposefully lie where GW is involved.

Sorry, I must be being dense here, I still don't see how "attempting to copyright roman numerals on a space marine shoulderpad" and "attempting to copyright roman numerals" are the same thing. I'm not being deliberately obtuse, I honestly don't get it.

And I know that GW are deep in the dark arts - I don't see what difference that makes to this specific point

 Kanluwen wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:


But it's a lot juicier if you lie and pretend they were trying to copyright roman numerals as an isolated concept. Anybody can relate to that! They've existed for thousands of years! Scandalous

That's a big if and a huge assumption that everybody here mentioning it is really lying, you can of course go like everybody else follow the trial read the transcripts and form your won opinion, see the charts and the notes on what they claimed it was their, read the experts reports and the discussion by forum members there, inducing actual layers.

Or you can assume everybody here is purposefully lie.

Considering what happens any and every time Matt Ward is rumored to be writing an upcoming book?

Yeah. It's not unfair to assume that people purposefully lie where GW is involved.

I seriously don't know where to start with that statement.

How about it is naive, patronising, irrelevant and insulting?

Yeah that'll do.

 Bull0 wrote:
Sorry, I must be being dense here, I still don't see how "attempting to copyright roman numerals on a space marine shoulderpad" and "attempting to copyright roman numerals" are the same thing. I'm not being deliberately obtuse, I honestly don't get it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

HTH

Roman numerals (combined with) arrows, X crosses and inverted V

Right or wrong, they still aren't claiming that they own roman numerals, but roman numerals with something else (either the pad, or with the shapes that make up tactical markings...) Witch is what Bull0 is talking about.

This copyright talk is about as off-topic as you can get, and copyright and trademark law doesn't really have anything to do with requiring Wayland Games to abide by the terms of a contract that they decided to sign.

GW has engaged in a pattern of wrongdoing including, but not limited to,

-Attempting to defraud their former artists,

-Pursuant to the aforementioned fraud, attempting to provide false or misleading statements to a federal court in an ongoing litigation,

-Misuse of federal statutes in an attempt to stifle "competitors",

And a general pattern of using their superior resources to engage in frivolous legal proceedings. The "virtue" of this approach is that GW persistently chooses to pursue this strategy against entities that lack the legal resources to fight back. Or, in the words of Cory Doctorow;

Games Workshop's strategy is to make "space marine" less generic by launching high profile, bullying attacks on everyone who uses it, so that there will come a day when people hearing the phrase immediately conclude that it must be related to Games Workshop, because everyone know what colossal dicks they are whenever anyone else uses the phrase

In the end this thread has been derailed quite a few times when people focus on details and call posters to defend themselves without really bringing anything solid forward except their opinion.

The crux of the problem is what I said 3 pages ago.

GW is using its bulk to threaten or eliminate whoever does something they do not like or perceive as a threat, regardless of its legality or ethical considerations, there are ample of examples for this in the past and the trend, BOW case been the latest, only gets worse.

If people want to defend this behavior and believe its good for anybody that is not GW, good for them, for me and others its at least worrisome and unhealthy for the industry.

All true; I just think if we're going to crucify them, we should stick to the things they actually did, rather than make up new things. All in favour?

*edit* I said "All true" before I saw PS' post; obviously I don't agree that calling someone out on a factually incorrect statement is "derailing" and also don't agree that by questioning individual points or actions we're somehow defending GW's entire oppressive campaign (particularly when I've repeatedly said that I don't defend them on any of that). But hey, whatever works.

Lol the IP fraud keeps rolling on. This makes as much sense as trying to ballchain an idea...

How is that "worrisome and unhealthy for the industry"?

Do you think that if the Infinity Art Book had been leaked by the publisher that CB would have been happy?

 Kanluwen wrote:
How is that "worrisome and unhealthy for the industry"?

Do you think that if the Infinity Art Book had been leaked by the publisher that CB would have been happy?

How is there a comparison between leaks of artwork from a book that you would only buy for the pictures and some early pics of minis?

If Wayland or BoW were giving the minis away early (or the 3D files perhaps) you'd have a more valid comparison.

 d-usa wrote:
This copyright talk is about as off-topic as you can get, and copyright and trademark law doesn't really have anything to do with requiring Wayland Games to abide by the terms of a contract that they decided to change just because an associate of Wayland was doing something that GW did not approve.

Fixed that for you.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
How is that "worrisome and unhealthy for the industry"?

Do you think that if the Infinity Art Book had been leaked by the publisher that CB would have been happy?

How is there a comparison between leaks of artwork from a book that you would only buy for the pictures and some early pics of minis?

If Wayland or BoW were giving the minis away early (or the 3D files perhaps) you'd have a more valid comparison.

What if the early pics of the minis came from a WD that wasn't officially on sale yet? After all, if you buy WD nowadays, its only for the pictures as there isn't much worth reading in it.

alphaecho wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
How is that "worrisome and unhealthy for the industry"?

Do you think that if the Infinity Art Book had been leaked by the publisher that CB would have been happy?

How is there a comparison between leaks of artwork from a book that you would only buy for the pictures and some early pics of minis?

If Wayland or BoW were giving the minis away early (or the 3D files perhaps) you'd have a more valid comparison.

What if the early pics of the minis came from a WD that wasn't officially on sale yet? After all, if you buy WD nowadays, its only for the pictures as there isn't much worth reading in it.

It would serve the same purpose. Much like if I uploaded pages from the Ikea catalogue on to a home furnishing blog.

 azreal13 wrote:

alphaecho wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
How is that "worrisome and unhealthy for the industry"?

Do you think that if the Infinity Art Book had been leaked by the publisher that CB would have been happy?

How is there a comparison between leaks of artwork from a book that you would only buy for the pictures and some early pics of minis?

If Wayland or BoW were giving the minis away early (or the 3D files perhaps) you'd have a more valid comparison.

What if the early pics of the minis came from a WD that wasn't officially on sale yet? After all, if you buy WD nowadays, its only for the pictures as there isn't much worth reading in it.

It would serve the same purpose. Much like if I uploaded pages from the Ikea catalogue on to a home furnishing blog.

If your home furnishing blog has an ad for a website where I can buy the Ikea products at a discount... then we're back on topic. Good work everybody!

I get that point Azreal13 but if "Magazine Publisher" knows that "Magazine Seller A" is passing the mag on three days before the selling date to his mate, who then scans pages and puts them on the internet then "Magazine Publisher" might want to impose extra terms on "Seller A" to prevent that.

What if the entire worrying point I try to raise is not about the leaks, but the way they decided to deal with them.

What is worrisome? its the fact GW tries to bully into submission or extinction everybody significantly smaller than them, which is the entire industry, based on them doing something they do not like not on a legal basis.

The fact they changed the distributors contracts just to stop BOW because their legal attempts failed shows the extend they are willing to go and how unethical they can become.

And Yes Kanluwen CB had leaks in the past some quite more significant than seen pages from the artbook, they did not hunt down to blogs that posted or reposted the leaks, nor the individuals that brought them into the light.

They did their internal security found who leaked them and stopped him.

If GW is hellbent to stop leaking, they can do their internal security and stop it, do they do that? no they legally threat forums, blogs and companies and when they fail they use their contracts to enforce their will.

Yes that IS worrisome.

 Bull0 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

alphaecho wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
How is that "worrisome and unhealthy for the industry"?

Do you think that if the Infinity Art Book had been leaked by the publisher that CB would have been happy?

How is there a comparison between leaks of artwork from a book that you would only buy for the pictures and some early pics of minis?

If Wayland or BoW were giving the minis away early (or the 3D files perhaps) you'd have a more valid comparison.

What if the early pics of the minis came from a WD that wasn't officially on sale yet? After all, if you buy WD nowadays, its only for the pictures as there isn't much worth reading in it.

It would serve the same purpose. Much like if I uploaded pages from the Ikea catalogue on to a home furnishing blog.

If your home furnishing blog has an ad for a website where I can buy the Ikea products at a discount... then we're back on topic. Good work everybody!

So what you're saying is, if the blog, regardless of its subject matter, carries advertising for a retailer that is offering the product which must have been purchased from one source and one source only at a discount, this is somehow a bad thing?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, other than GW are trying to be greedy by forcing people to buy from them directly to enhance their margin?

Its irrelevant anyway, as both Wayland and BoW have flatly denied there was any information sharing going on anyway.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
What if the entire worrying point I try to raise is not about the leaks, but the way they decided to deal with them.

What is worrisome? its the fact GW tries to bully into submission or extinction everybody significantly smaller than them, which is the entire industry, based on them doing something they do not like not on a legal basis.

The fact they changed the distributors contracts just to stop BOW because their legal attempts failed shows the extend they are willing to go and how unethical they can become.

And Yes Kanluwen CB had leaks in the past some quite more significant than seen pages from the artbook, they did not hunt down to blogs that posted or reposted the leaks, nor the individuals that brought them into the light.

They did their internal security found who leaked them and stopped him.

If GW is hellbent to stop leaking, they can do their internal security and stop it, do they do that? no they legally threat forums, blogs and companies and when they fail they use their contracts to enforce their will.

Yes that IS worrisome.

And you just made my point for me.

The leaks that we have been seeing from GW are not coming from someone within GW. Internal security checks do nothing to stop an external source--in this case, the leaks have been coming from whoever they have publishing White Dwarf.

If someone from whatever publisher that CB had used to do the Art Book leaked the material to a blog then they would have gone after them.

 azreal13 wrote:


I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, other than GW are trying to be greedy by forcing people to buy from them directly to enhance their margin?

Just to be clear, yeah, I think that's exactly what they're trying to do. Although they still won't be "forced" to, but they're supposedly more likely to buy direct from GW if they get the news about the release from GW too. They would be forced to in the eventuality that 3rd parties / trade accounts drainstop and cease to be a thing (which might be GW's endgame re: all this).

I want to reiterate that although I think this is happening and can see why they could be doing it from a business sense I don't think it's "nice" (because that seems to matter a lot)

 Bull0 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:


I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, other than GW are trying to be greedy by forcing people to buy from them directly to enhance their margin?

Just to be clear, yeah, I think that's exactly what they're trying to do.

Well then, in that we are in agreement.

What a horrible, horrible way to conduct business.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

alphaecho wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
How is that "worrisome and unhealthy for the industry"?

Do you think that if the Infinity Art Book had been leaked by the publisher that CB would have been happy?

How is there a comparison between leaks of artwork from a book that you would only buy for the pictures and some early pics of minis?

If Wayland or BoW were giving the minis away early (or the 3D files perhaps) you'd have a more valid comparison.

What if the early pics of the minis came from a WD that wasn't officially on sale yet? After all, if you buy WD nowadays, its only for the pictures as there isn't much worth reading in it.

It would serve the same purpose. Much like if I uploaded pages from the Ikea catalogue on to a home furnishing blog.

If your home furnishing blog has an ad for a website where I can buy the Ikea products at a discount... then we're back on topic. Good work everybody!

So what you're saying is, if the blog, regardless of its subject matter, carries advertising for a retailer that is offering the product which must have been purchased from one source and one source only at a discount, this is somehow a bad thing?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, other than GW are trying to be greedy by forcing people to buy from them directly to enhance their margin?

Its irrelevant anyway, as both Wayland and BoW have flatly denied there was any information sharing going on anyway.

Just to reiterate as clearly as possible, we at Wayland did not pass information to BOW nor did they pass leaked information to us. Anyone will be able to see clearly that the moment our affiliation with BOW was announced their GW coverage reduced considerably. Our footprint on BOW could only be described as low key. We generated little traffic from BOW. We have had a legitimate and legal business activity damaged and restricted. We keep vast amounts of information on our competitors and I can safely say by some massive margin we adhere to GW trade terms more completely than any other.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
What if the entire worrying point I try to raise is not about the leaks, but the way they decided to deal with them.

What is worrisome? its the fact GW tries to bully into submission or extinction everybody significantly smaller than them, which is the entire industry, based on them doing something they do not like not on a legal basis.

The fact they changed the distributors contracts just to stop BOW because their legal attempts failed shows the extend they are willing to go and how unethical they can become.

And Yes Kanluwen CB had leaks in the past some quite more significant than seen pages from the artbook, they did not hunt down to blogs that posted or reposted the leaks, nor the individuals that brought them into the light.

They did their internal security found who leaked them and stopped him.

If GW is hellbent to stop leaking, they can do their internal security and stop it, do they do that? no they legally threat forums, blogs and companies and when they fail they use their contracts to enforce their will.

Yes that IS worrisome.

And you just made my point for me.

The leaks that we have been seeing from GW are not coming from someone within GW. Internal security checks do nothing to stop an external source--in this case, the leaks have been coming from whoever they have publishing White Dwarf.

If someone from whatever publisher that CB had used to do the Art Book leaked the material to a blog then they would have gone after them.

Internal security also means making your contractors and freelance artists behave and keep their mouth shut, it does not mean you can or should go hunt people reporting what was leaked.

BOW did not rappelled in to the building and scooped the information out of GW hands they reported what was leaked, there is no reason why BOW or Wayland should suffer for GWs inability to keep whatever they want for themselves to themselves.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

The fact they changed the distributors contracts just to stop BOW because their legal attempts failed shows the extend they are willing to go and how unethical they can become.

Not fact. Might not be wrong, But not fact. Because you think it's true, because BOW thinks it's true, doesn't mean that it is true (or false), they could be trying to stop more then just BOW, there are probably blogs and what not that you don't know about...

They did their internal security found who leaked them and stopped him.

would they still be mad if someone released it from a copy that got out before the sale date? then you would be talking about the same thing.

Are you are suggesting (and imagine how well this would go over) that GW not ship their WD or minis to places till after they are released so that they don't have to do what they do to stop leaks?

Of course if they would pre release the info themselves we'd have a different conversation, but they aren't and this is what they are doing to stop leaked information (presumably) they found a leak source, and are stopping it...

Well a trade agreement change only for the UK penalizing a business when a business partner talks about GW stuff that are not released, except if there is any other UK company that consist of a retailer and a news media company that I do not know of then its really tailored for Wayland/ BOW partnership.

They could be mad, there is nothing they can do about it beyond tightening the internal security next time,, once its out of your hands its out of your hands, beyond enforcing a release date on distributors, one cannot legally do much more.

 insaniak wrote:
Sure, Bandi could probably put out not-Eldar faster than GW could. But I would seriously doubt that there would be any real benefit in them doing so. GW are a big fish in a small pond. I doubt they even register on Bandi's radar at all. The effort involved in rushing out a series of models to sell to a niche part of a niche market wouldn't even be worth considering.

In fairness, that Russian company makes stuff very close to GW, and so do Mantic, especially at the beginning.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Well a trade agreement change only for the UK penalizing a business when a business partner talks about GW stuff that are not released, except if there is any other UK company that consist of a retailer and a news media company that I do not know of then its really tailored for Wayland/ BOW partnership.

but not fact. (again i said it may well be right, but that's not what fact is... GW sells mins = fact, gw is making new sisters plastics for release = not fact)

They could be mad, there is nothing they can do about it beyond tightening the internal security next time,, once its out of your hands its out of your hands, beyond enforcing a release date on distributors, one cannot legally do much more.

Minus doing what GW did... If the leak in the line is one of your distributors, then they make changes to stop that leak.. witch they did, and it worked.

It didn't work, info is still leaking, they've just stopped (temporarily) BoW disseminating it.

Which, given the nature of the online community, is like trying to cure the bubonic plague by shooting one rat.

That's not a fact that's assumption, fact is BOW and Wayland refused the accusations, but decided to part ways so that GW cannot penalize Wayland because BOW reports leaks like the ample ones found here on Dakka or BOK or wherever else.