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Unless you run Blood Angels, the "Heroic" got nerfed to "Glorious" Intervention didn't it? So for IF to utilize that rule, you'll have to make the Vanguard an ad-hoc "bodyguard" for your random wandering character types now. I've been contemplating the idea of a Jump Pack Libraian joining a Vanguard Grav-Pistol "Gunslinger Spam" Squad (5 w/2x GP)and Deep Striking next to that pesky Tau Crisis Suit Team! Land, open up w/ 10x shots and some Psyker nastiness, survive entire turn, shoot again and CHAAARGE! (hey, it sounds good on paper? )

Also, just to fill out my Fast Attack slots, I'm finishing up two small Asssult Squads with 2x Flamers in each, as Anti-Horde/ Harassment/ "You Have To Stop And Deal With These Pri 's " type of siucide-denial units. Cheap and disposable like good Assault troops oughta be!

But yah, I don't care what they say: a bunch of Assault Termies will STILL ruin most any ones day! (...if you can get there!)

Dagger wrote:
But yah, I don't care what they say: a bunch of Assault Termies will STILL ruin most any ones day! (...if you can get there!)

It's that last part which is the issue.

Whilst one can appreciate quite why we've wandered off on this particular tangent, I think the thread would be best served if we returned back a bit more towards the OPs original interests.

Thanks !

The Honor Guard have mobilization problems, and don't even get an apothecary.

I'd say the VV are overall more versatile for "pressuring", and they get access to cheap storm shields.

It's really hard to say which is the best C:SM assault unit, when all of them have pretty critical flaws.

Martel732 wrote:
The Honor Guard have mobilization problems, and don't even get an apothecary.

Drop Pod, Artificier Armour. Sure, the 2+ won't help against plasma or rending shurikens, but on the other hand it's better against volume of fire than 3+/5+++. It also doesn't cease existing to Heldrakes or similar threats.

Ok why does ever say drop pods for assault you can't assault out of them so ur left stayed in front of opponent units who get a whole trun to move away from ur assault troops and shot them dead that my problem with pods i run 5 of them some time and frist 3 units are dead in on trun

I'd go with the drop pod idea as AlmightyWalrus said, but my vote is still for Assault Terminators. If you get a good scatter roll, with the new disembark it is unlikely any units you would want to tie up in melee would be able to move far enough in the following turn to escape the Terminators, and 2+/3++ is still a pain in the ass for a lot of armies.

zilka86 wrote:
Ok why does ever say drop pods for assault you can't assault out of them so ur left stayed in front of opponent units who get a whole trun to move away from ur assault troops and shot them dead that my problem with pods i run 5 of them some time and frist 3 units are dead in on trun

Once again, please either add something constructive to the conversation or go away.

zilka86 wrote:
Ok why does ever say drop pods for assault you can't assault out of them so ur left stayed in front of opponent units who get a whole trun to move away from ur assault troops and shot them dead that my problem with pods i run 5 of them some time and frist 3 units are dead in on trun

If you're losing 3 units that YOU get to deploy where you want in one turn you need to work on how to use Drop Pods properly. I hate resorting to what is effectively a "lol l2p" argument, but there really is nothing else to say. When the enemy is busy moving away from your 3 Drop Pod units, what is the rest of your army doing? Sitting around twiddling their thumbs?

Besides, if they're moving off objectives, that means they'll have to move on to them again if they want to hold them. Play the mission and all that.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Honor Guard have mobilization problems, and don't even get an apothecary.

Drop Pod, Artificier Armour. Sure, the 2+ won't help against plasma or rending shurikens, but on the other hand it's better against volume of fire than 3+/5+++. It also doesn't cease existing to Heldrakes or similar threats.

I still think this is letting Tau pie plate 25 pt/W models instead of 14 pt/W models. Eldar will scoot and shoot and away from your drop zone. Hell, even my lowly BA can do the exact same thing, except I have to send a crappy dreadnought to squish your honor guard instead of a Wraithknight. You'll never assault me with these guys, just as players who drop in DC never get to assault me either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

zilka86 wrote:
Ok why does ever say drop pods for assault you can't assault out of them so ur left stayed in front of opponent units who get a whole trun to move away from ur assault troops and shot them dead that my problem with pods i run 5 of them some time and frist 3 units are dead in on trun

If you're losing 3 units that YOU get to deploy where you want in one turn you need to work on how to use Drop Pods properly. I hate resorting to what is effectively a "lol l2p" argument, but there really is nothing else to say. When the enemy is busy moving away from your 3 Drop Pod units, what is the rest of your army doing? Sitting around twiddling their thumbs?

Besides, if they're moving off objectives, that means they'll have to move on to them again if they want to hold them. Play the mission and all that.

It's not like they have to move super far. Just move out of foot slogger assault range. Or move up a sacrifical unit to double tap and eat the charge to set up the kill zone. You drop pod guys will never catch a unit of something like dire avengers, just be kited forever.

Then make a suggestion Martel, or are his only options to either roll over and die or play the game exactly the same as everyone else?

EDIT: On a related note, has anyone tried Assault Centurions yet?

zilka86 wrote:
Ok why does ever say drop pods for assault you can't assault out of them so ur left stayed in front of opponent units who get a whole trun to move away from ur assault troops and shot them dead that my problem with pods i run 5 of them some time and frist 3 units are dead in on trun

Because it puts your on the other side of the table in one turn right next to what you want to assault.... And with honour guard, you still have bolters and grendades to throw in their faces on that one turn you cant assault.

It's not like comming out of a pod is robbing you of anything either. theres NO way to assault if you go first turn one. If you use a pod, at the very least, the other person has to spend an unreasonable ammount of shooting killing whats already on his chin.

My personal favorite is the classic 10 man assault squad. 2 flamers, sgt has a powerfist if I can swing the points but he may just have the veteran upgrade.

They do two things well: mop up damaged units and garner attention.

I have a friend who loves him some biker nobs. I had the hardest time dealing with them with shooting because of that annoying cover save. Then I figured out if I played patiently and whittled the unit down a bit rather than trying to destroy it outright, my assault marines are more than a match for what is left over. I applied the same logic to many different units and I've had very good results. My trusty assault marines have killed pretty much any wounded unit I've ever pointed them at. It took a while to get it right, but the learning curve was well worth it. (BTW, whatever happened to the wise old saying of losing 20 games before you figured out how to play...?)

Another thing they do will is get shot at. It's very funny when people say assault is dead. If that were true, why is that assault units are usually the first thing people want to delete? I don't see many people trying desperately to take my TL Ultramarines tac squads off the board but they FREAK with assault units. I've seen people go after my assault squad to the point that my army is literally running amok on the board while they try their hardest to deal with 10 marines with chainsaws and jump packs.

6th edition changed assault to be sure, but as with anything in the game if you're willing to take your licks and lose a bunch learning a new strategy, you can do quite well with your assault units!

The game boils down to math. The math is against assault atm, which makes any kind of half-assed assault options, which is all the marines have by the way, fighting a serious uphill battle.

Yeah, you can drop in 2 or 3 pods of stuff. If they aren't Sternguard or command squads with special weapons, they aren't doing much damage when they drop. That's a wasted turn right there. The reality is my graviton bikers have a 30" threatened area. I'm willing to gamble that there are no magic places where a) I can't shoot you and b) you can assault me the next turn. You drop in your scary honor guard, and then I graviton them in the face from a safe distance.

Deepstrike/drop pod assault troops didn't really work in 5th and that was before intercepting S9 AP 2 pie plate from Tau and graviton bikers. I'm not even convinced drop pod assault troops could stand up to a pure BA shooter list, which is pretty sad, really.

Games that revolve around math, like 40K and Starcraft, have builds that work and builds that don't work. What works is dictated by math, not my whim or your whim.

Assault centurions are an interesting idea, as they are incredible anti-horde, but that's too specific for their cost and vulnerability. Plus slow and purposeful assault troops is just a poor idea: more points of failure.

Seriously, for assault units, I have been doing fine with graviton bikers after I have softened units up. And Mephiston. Realize that it is usually completely not important what kind of unit you get into CC with Taudar, just that you get there.

Yes, you can probably scoot away from the Drop Pods and shoot the guys that just came out. Then the enemy grav bike squad moves over and mows yours down. Of course unsupported assault units are going to die. Fortunately, they don't have to be unsupported.

It depends what you need.

Vanguard are best at dealing with hordes and meh armor saves
Honor guard can deal with anything that doesn't have ap2
TH/SS termies can take out elite things, but only elite things
Assault centurions with a chaplin tend to kill everything that doesn't have an ap 2 weapon

Those tend to be the choices available to you.

Oh and assault wins games, when your opponent has no chance of winning in melee the best way to win is, surprisingly, melee. Getting there is both easier and harder these days, but when you make it, victory tends to be yours.

Best way to tell if your opponent is a good player is if they have a balanced army of melee and ranged. Pure ranged doesn't work unless you're guard or tau these days.

In my experience, any kind of "support" you can provide drop assault models doesn't stop them from getting owned.

After years of playing fast BA tanks, I'm very good at scooting around to get shots while minimized the damage his "support" can dish out.

The reality is that lists that invest in drop assault units are missing out on all those points to shoot back at my list. I'll have more graviton bikers than the drop list, and I might trade some bikers for honor guard, but that's fine.

Note that Eldar lists can you shoot you with their stock troops and just shred you. So they can own your honor guard and bikes on the same turn. Yay!

Martel732 wrote:


Yeah, you can drop in 2 or 3 pods of stuff. If they aren't Sternguard or command squads with special weapons, they aren't doing much damage when they drop. That's a wasted turn right there.

A list that features Honour guard, is probably going to feature some other things too. Yes, if I can drop sternguard and hit you with ap3 then I will. But that's assuming I'm playing marines. Against tau, having honour guard come down in the first drop is a nice option because it ruins any plans of sitting and shooting from afar. Against IG, hitting with the combi-meltas works... Against orks, Dropping the flamer dread is very awesome.

Why would you make your argument 'it boils down to math' and then imply that every single list has every perfect counter to what can come down in a pod?

It doesn't ruin anything for Tau. Because they just shoot the honor guard first.

Additionally, how do you magically have the correct drop unit in your list? You are just as likely to have the combi-meltas against Orks. List tailoring is not a valid argument.

No, I'm implying that the top lists (as well as some other lists, like BA) don't care about drop podded honor guard, because 2+ saves and 5.00 USD will get you a cup of Starbucks.

GW has brought back the bad old days of marine armor not cutting the mustard. There really is no way to wriggle around this and no way to scheme against it.

Ok In my opinion you should not have any assault troops and take more guns

The only intercept ap2+ guns in the tau army you see regularly are the ion accellerator and the railgun on a broadside.


If you want to avoid the interceptor plate, all you have to do is disembark so that you're within 2.5 inches of an opponents model with all your dudes, Do that and there's no valid placement of the template except on the pod (which has done its job by the time intercept happens). So, that means MR riptide has to intercept with bs3, on a three shot gun. that's 1.5 hits, and 1.3 wounds. It all boils down to math after all even better, if you can get out of LOS, he cant intercept at all. That means honour guard are getting to shoot first, with rapid fire bolters and whatever combat doctrine/chapter tactic you have.

The alternative is intercepting broadsides with railguns.... How often have you seen those?

No one argues that power armour isn't the big gak anymore, but just as obviously, no tau player wants 8 2up saves and 40 power weapon attacks sitting in front of their lines. The worst case scenario for the marine player, is that the tau player spends his turn moving away, blocking with a screen of something disposable, and shooting ALLOT of what they have at those guard.

zilka86 wrote:
Ok In my opinion you should not have any assault troops and take more guns

Yes, we quite noticed.

"If you want to avoid the interceptor plate, all you have to do is disembark so that you're within 2.5 inches of an opponents model with all your dudes,"

Easier said than done. I've won many, many games off of my opponent's drop pods not landing where they needed them to. Any deviation that makes it so a single model can't get within 2.5" is disastrous.

And that's just the Tau. Who don't live in a vacuum.

Tell me, in a fixed list tourney, or against an unknown opponent, what do you load in your pods? My answer is cheap (relatively) shooty stuff. But that's not what the thread is about. So how to you make this work for a TAC list?

zilka86 wrote:
I have spent over 50games trying out assault and it seems that it won't work in 6ed gunline so i mad a gun line sm army as that's the way to go. why is it so hard for people to see that this ed is all about gun lines

Try playing a screamerStar or jetSeer council and you will see that a unit with a 2+ rerollable save can assault just fine.

Agreed, but space marines are a bit short on those. Oh wait, fast-moving with a 2+ re-rollable. Can't forget that. And people bitched about 5th edition BA ASM.

So, it seems most people don't think we should have dedicated assault be a primary strategy, but many people like the idea of having assault potential, either for disrupting shooting, counter-assaulting enemies that penetrate the backfield, and/or mopping up damaged units.

What SM units are the best in that role?

I vote for Command Squad on bikes. Upsides: good shooting, access to special weapons and wargear, good assault, high toughness (coupled with Jink saves and an apothecary can make them hard as nails), excellent mobility for counter-assaulting. Bonuses everywhere for White Scars! Downside: the unit is expensive... at worst (i.e. - if it doesn't end up in melee), it is essentially an overpriced Biker squad that can't claim.

For assault potential, regular bikers can't be underestimated. Cheap, scoring (probably), and assault with one hit at Init 10 and two more attacks.

I still think the VV have potential now that they don't break the bank and have access to cheap storm shields. Yeah, they still die to massed fire pretty easily, but that's true of almost anything the marines field.

We can agree that Bikes have some pretty decent potential, especially if you've got a CM with gear.

Oh C:am definitely should NOT be a focused assault force, but it can absolutely plunk down a punchy unit or two

 davou wrote:
Oh C:am definitely should NOT be a focused assault force, but it can absolutely plunk down a punchy unit or two

Which, considering it's got Black Templars in it, is sad.

zilka86 wrote:
When a assault ork army with over 180 boyz can't attack a gun line and never have a chance ok being able to break the gun line . when you assault a enemy army it should be able to break thru that point of assault . when i drove my 5rhinos up to a enemy and jump out i should be able to shoot and then assault to break there lines

Why would you expect to assault out of a rhino? That is what Raiders are for