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If anything it would seem like it would give humans the power to destroy anything in their path, calling down diseases from Nurgle to infect the Hive Fleets, eating the souls of the Eldar, doing to magicy thing to Necrons and Khorne granting soldiers the savagery of an Ork. What about the worlds within the Eye that have life, like Torvendus, maybe you could say its depraved life, or human life that doesn't deserve to exist but its human life none the less.

Their seems to be a lot of confusion on the chaotic side as well about this. In the Dark Apostle series they talked about bringing an end to mankind in one book and in another talked about how they needed to save mankind through Chaos.
The Iron Warriors seem to have this issue to, Forrix talking about how Honsou believes in the dream of Humanity united under Chaos while at the same time talking about destroying humanity in another part of the book. Same hatred of humans in the Siege of Castellex. I'm not sure whether this nuance is on purpose, is this the product of bad writing or is just because games workshop can't decide how to portray the followers of Chaos.

I'm not sure if I should end this post with DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR or LET THE GALAXY BURN(yea you know who I root for) so I'll just tell everyone to have a nice day.

Yeah, the forces of chaos want anarchy, not the ruination of mankind. That's why chaos is so devoted to overthrowing the Imperium more than anything else, because the Imperium is imposing a kind of order that's different from what the chaos gods want.

And one of the things the chaos gods do NOT want is the death of mankind, as without man, there are no gods.


... well... there would be gork and mork, but that hardly counts...

It doesn't really matter. If the Imperium were defeated by Chaos then the astronomicon would be gone, and a divided humanity would be overrun by all of it's other enemies. So Chaos winning would likely lead to the death of most of mankind anyways.

Vraksian Defender wrote:
How exactly does Chaotic victory equal the death of mankind?

It doesn't. That's an idiotic lie spread by the Cabal for their own nefarious ends.

Either that or the fans are misinterpretting the Cabal. IIRC, what was stated was that Horus would have a huge "What have I done?" moment and then kill everyone after he won, not that Chaos would implode on itself.

 Orblivion wrote:
It doesn't really matter. If the Imperium were defeated by Chaos then the astronomicon would be gone, and a divided humanity would be overrun by all of it's other enemies. So Chaos winning would likely lead to the death of most of mankind anyways.

Chaos doesn't need the astronomicon to send astropathic messages or to navigate the warp. Demons (via daemons, possessed chaos marines, or daemon-possessed ships. Chaos has lots of options, and yes, all three of these options have been stated in various "official" sources) are actually better at navigating the warp and do it better than navigators. Several times, it's come up in the fluff that trying to outrun a chaos ship in the warp is a losing preposition. The warp is, after all, their home. You don't even need a daemon in some cases. Typhus navigates his ship through the warp personally without any astronomicon, and he's not even a navigator (though he is Nurgle's greatest champion). The same applies to astropathic messages. A demon or possessed psyker/chaos marine is far better at both sending and interpretting messages sent through the warp than an astropath ever could hope to be.

A chaotic Imperium would be able to be even MORE unified than the current Imperium in terms of travel and communications. It wouldn't be unified anyways, though, because Chaos itself is inherently divisive in terms of personality. That has nothing to do with the lack of communication or travel, though, and it's possible that Abaddon would be able to keep it marginally unified anyways (enough to fight its enemies, at least)

The main argument Chaos has that it'll be able to defend mankind is that Chaos is power, and only with the power of Chaos can mankind last against its enemies. Presumably the gods, should they win, would at least live up to that promise to the best of their ability, if only because they're kinda screwed if mankind goes down, too. With planners like Tzeentch as one of the gods, they aren't going to be stupid enough to just let mankind fall apart to its myriad of outside foes if they ever do defeat the Imperium.

TiamatRoar wrote:

Vraksian Defender wrote:
How exactly does Chaotic victory equal the death of mankind?

It doesn't. That's an idiotic lie spread by the Cabal for their own nefarious ends.

Either that or the fans are misinterpretting the Cabal. IIRC, what was stated was that Horus would have a huge "What have I done?" moment and then kill everyone after he won, not that Chaos would implode on itself.

 Orblivion wrote:
It doesn't really matter. If the Imperium were defeated by Chaos then the astronomicon would be gone, and a divided humanity would be overrun by all of it's other enemies. So Chaos winning would likely lead to the death of most of mankind anyways.

Chaos doesn't need the astronomicon to send astropathic messages or to navigate the warp. Demons (via daemons, possessed chaos marines, or daemon-possessed ships. Chaos has lots of options, and yes, all three of these options have been stated in various "official" sources) are actually better at navigating the warp and do it better than navigators. Several times, it's come up in the fluff that trying to outrun a chaos ship in the warp is a losing preposition. The warp is, after all, their home. You don't even need a daemon in some cases. Typhus navigates his ship through the warp personally without any astronomicon, and he's not even a navigator (though he is Nurgle's greatest champion). The same applies to astropathic messages. A demon or possessed psyker/chaos marine is far better at both sending and interpretting messages sent through the warp than an astropath ever could hope to be.

A chaotic Imperium would be able to be even MORE unified than the current Imperium in terms of travel and communications. It wouldn't be unified anyways, though, because Chaos itself is inherently divisive in terms of personality. That has nothing to do with the lack of communication or travel, though, and it's possible that Abaddon would be able to keep it marginally unified anyways (enough to fight its enemies, at least)

The main argument Chaos has that it'll be able to defend mankind is that Chaos is power, and only with the power of Chaos can mankind last against its enemies. Presumably the gods, should they win, would at least live up to that promise to the best of their ability, if only because they're kinda screwed if mankind goes down, too. With planners like Tzeentch as one of the gods, they aren't going to be stupid enough to just let mankind fall apart to its myriad of outside foes if they ever do defeat the Imperium.

Chaos defeating the Imperium wouldn't automatically make all of humanity fall to Chaos immediately. It would take decades, if not centuries to once again unite humanity under a new flag. In that time huge portions of the human race would be eradicated by Tyranids, Orks, Eldar, Necrons and Tau. The Tau and possibly even the Eldar might absorb some humans into their own populations but for the most part they would be a fraction of what they were under the Imperium. That's my take on the situation at least.

 Orblivion wrote:

Chaos defeating the Imperium wouldn't automatically make all of humanity fall to Chaos immediately. It would take decades, if not centuries to once again unite humanity under a new flag. In that time huge portions of the human race would be eradicated by Tyranids, Orks, Eldar, Necrons and Tau. The Tau and possibly even the Eldar might absorb some humans into their own populations but for the most part they would be a fraction of what they were under the Imperium. That's my take on the situation at least.

Well, that might be one of the reasons why GW changed Abaddon's plan a bit. His plan now is apparently to envelop the entire galaxy in warp rather than just conquer the Imperium piece-meal. Maybe some people at GW realized how infeasible the latter case would be.

Vraksian Defender wrote:


I'm not sure if I should end this post with DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR or LET THE GALAXY BURN(yea you know who I root for) so I'll just tell everyone to have a nice day.

No your ending is all we need to know

A chaos fan thread....so ...

Heresy

is the correct reply to it.




OtoH, the death of mankind is already covered in "the full circle" ( 3rd edition ) and "end times" ( 5th/6th edition ).
Chaos is surely part of the means to get there..

The Scorpion and the Frog

A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the
scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The
frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion
says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of
paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"

Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."

The stupid thing about that old story is it's actually NOT a scorpion's nature to do that.

I prefer the LOTFR Scorpion Clan version of the same Tale

Its exactly the same excpet for the last line:

replies the scorpion:"but little frog, I can swim....."

awesome

 Mr Morden wrote:
I prefer the LOTFR Scorpion Clan version of the same Tale

Its exactly the same excpet for the last line:

replies the scorpion:"but little frog, I can swim....."

awesome

The Scorpion Clan is the only thing that makes that game moderately enjoyable.

A Chaos victory wouldn't mean the death of every single man, but the death of mankind as a unified species. Chaos works by focusing on the egoistic streaks and dreams of the individual, corrupting and luring them with the means of achieving these at the expense of mankind as a whole.

Looking at the Imperium, you have a monolithic interstellar empire, where almost every single world is part of a greater whole, working and interacting according to some great plan hatched by the Emperor and his High Lords on Terra.

Compare this to the forces of Chaos, which simply lack ... coherence. Where "the stronger is right" overrules any sort of law or order, and where internecine rivalries and feuds that make the Imperium's internal troubles seem laughable cripple the majority of their strike potential and means of production - for those warbands who actually have any, and do not rely simply on raiding others for basic supplies. Only the notion of a common enemy actually has any chance of getting the forces of Chaos to cooperate, and even then such alliances do not last long, as can be seen by the constant struggle between the followers of the four Chaos Gods, and even Cultists who share the same God, whilst the Imperium still keeps on existing for millennia.

Chaos simply means anarchy, and anarchy is no guarantor for survival.


PS: Given how the Nids' "Shadow in the Warp" affects psychic phenomena and the manifestation of daemons, I'm not sure Nurgle would actually be able to do much against them. His plagues are a supernatural manifestation, too, after all. You cannot infect where your powers don't reach.

Because a few will be turned into half-demon things and the rest will be enslaved or worse. Not exactly a Win for the human race.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Because a few will be turned into half-demon things and the rest will be enslaved or worse. Not exactly a Win for the human race.

This is imperial propaganda.
Look at the Sabbat Worlds: the Imperium is at war with a full civilization that worships Khorne. And they have been doing that since forever. They are humans who worship the god of war (and not the "dumb god of always angry"), and they prosper. They have children and take care of them, they have schools, they have honour.

The Imperial Truth is a lie.

Vraksian Defender wrote:
If anything it would seem like it would give humans the power to destroy anything in their path, calling down diseases from Nurgle to infect the Hive Fleets, eating the souls of the Eldar, doing to magicy thing to Necrons and Khorne granting soldiers the savagery of an Ork. What about the worlds within the Eye that have life, like Torvendus, maybe you could say its depraved life, or human life that doesn't deserve to exist but its human life none the less.

Their seems to be a lot of confusion on the chaotic side as well about this. In the Dark Apostle series they talked about bringing an end to mankind in one book and in another talked about how they needed to save mankind through Chaos.
The Iron Warriors seem to have this issue to, Forrix talking about how Honsou believes in the dream of Humanity united under Chaos while at the same time talking about destroying humanity in another part of the book. Same hatred of humans in the Siege of Castellex. I'm not sure whether this nuance is on purpose, is this the product of bad writing or is just because games workshop can't decide how to portray the followers of Chaos.

I'm not sure if I should end this post with DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR or LET THE GALAXY BURN(yea you know who I root for) so I'll just tell everyone to have a nice day.

The Tyranids are already immune to Nurgle's gift as per the 13th black crusade.

Also the necrons can detonate the celestial orrery, which destroys the entirety of the galaxy. Forever. Every single star will start to have fits before undergoing supernova and everyone dies.

Forever.

Thinks its becuase chaos could escape the eye of terror and turn everyone into daemons.

 da001 wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Because a few will be turned into half-demon things and the rest will be enslaved or worse. Not exactly a Win for the human race.

This is imperial propaganda.
Look at the Sabbat Worlds: the Imperium is at war with a full civilization that worships Khorne. And they have been doing that since forever. They are humans who worship the god of war (and not the "dumb god of always angry"), and they prosper. They have children and take care of them, they have schools, they have honour.

The Imperial Truth is a lie.

The overwhelming majority of "chaotic" society has atrocious living conditions for anyone not a Chaos Space Marine, with rampant slavery, widespread torture, absolutely no concept of rule of law, no value for life (even the Imperium has a concept of "wasteful expenditure") and most of them openly abide by the creed of "Do evil for evil's sake" in the words of one Chaos Space Marine.

This is a society that deserves only extinction with extreme prejudice.

It has nothing to offer anyone with a conscience.

 Kain wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Because a few will be turned into half-demon things and the rest will be enslaved or worse. Not exactly a Win for the human race.

This is imperial propaganda.
Look at the Sabbat Worlds: the Imperium is at war with a full civilization that worships Khorne. And they have been doing that since forever. They are humans who worship the god of war (and not the "dumb god of always angry"), and they prosper. They have children and take care of them, they have schools, they have honour.

The Imperial Truth is a lie.

The overwhelming majority of "chaotic" society has atrocious living conditions for anyone not a Chaos Space Marine, with rampant slavery, widespread torture, absolutely no concept of rule of law, no value for life (even the Imperium has a concept of "wasteful expenditure") and most of them openly abide by the creed of "Do evil for evil's sake" in the words of one Chaos Space Marine.

This is a society that deserves only extinction with extreme prejudice.

It has nothing to offer anyone with a conscience.

Again, imperial propaganda. And "atrocious living conditions" and "no value for life" apply to the Imperium too.

There are few sources that write from the point of view of chaos followers, but they do not live by the "do evil for evil´s sake" creed. Also, Chaos Space Marines are exceedingly rare, and can be ignored here. They do not represent a human society. Most people do not see a single one of them in their lives (just like loyalist Space Marines).

Edit: most of the stuff we get is Bolter porn describing Space Marines killing scum. The Sabbat Worlds or books like Daemonworld or Pawns of Chaos give a completely different perspective.

 Kain wrote:
The Tyranids are already immune to Nurgle's gift as per the 13th black crusade.

What happened in the 13th Black crusade with the nids?



PS:You ever read something, carry on for a few posts and think 'wait, what?!' and realise you've missed something again

I would say it leads to the death of a unified mankind.

 da001 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Because a few will be turned into half-demon things and the rest will be enslaved or worse. Not exactly a Win for the human race.

This is imperial propaganda.
Look at the Sabbat Worlds: the Imperium is at war with a full civilization that worships Khorne. And they have been doing that since forever. They are humans who worship the god of war (and not the "dumb god of always angry"), and they prosper. They have children and take care of them, they have schools, they have honour.

The Imperial Truth is a lie.

The overwhelming majority of "chaotic" society has atrocious living conditions for anyone not a Chaos Space Marine, with rampant slavery, widespread torture, absolutely no concept of rule of law, no value for life (even the Imperium has a concept of "wasteful expenditure") and most of them openly abide by the creed of "Do evil for evil's sake" in the words of one Chaos Space Marine.

This is a society that deserves only extinction with extreme prejudice.

It has nothing to offer anyone with a conscience.

Again, imperial propaganda. And "atrocious living conditions" and "no value for life" apply to the Imperium too.

There are few sources that write from the point of view of chaos followers, but they do not live by the "do evil for evil´s sake" creed. Also, Chaos Space Marines are exceedingly rare, and can be ignored here. They do not represent a human society. Most people do not see a single one of them in their lives (just like loyalist Space Marines).

Edit: most of the stuff we get is Bolter porn describing Space Marines killing scum. The Sabbat Worlds or books like Daemonworld or Pawns of Chaos give a completely different perspective.

Going by the Word Bearers novels, the Chaos Space Marines both dominate Chaotic society and treat anyone who isn't one of them like absolute dirt.

Rape, torture, murder, and such are all done for fun or even ritualized with no concept of the rule of law.

If you are not part of the Chaos Space marines, they are free to do whatever they want to you and there's nothing you can do about it other than close your eyes and think of England.

They may not be the majority force, but they are by far the dominant force, and everything we know about them paints them as relentlessly cruel, sadistic, who know that they're doing evil and wrong things, but do them any way just because those things are evil and wrong.

And honestly, that's how Chaos should be. It is the worst of our nature. It isn't supposed to be balanced or have any valid points. It is supposed to be evil incarnate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PredaKhaine wrote:

 Kain wrote:
The Tyranids are already immune to Nurgle's gift as per the 13th black crusade.

What happened in the 13th Black crusade with the nids?



PS:You ever read something, carry on for a few posts and think 'wait, what?!' and realise you've missed something again

A Tyranid Fleet descended on a sector contested by both Nurglite elements loyal to Abaddon and by the Imperium at Belis Corona. The followers of Nurgle found to their dismay that the Tyranids were now utterly immune to any and all of nurgle's blessings, having simply adapted beyond them, while the forces of the Imperium were dismayed on having a new enemy to confront. Only the Eldar's intervention stopped the sector from being lost.

 Kain wrote:

Going by the Word Bearers novels, the Chaos Space Marines both dominate Chaotic society and treat anyone who isn't one of them like absolute dirt.

I love those books.

But that´s why I insisted in the "there are very few Chaos Space Marines" thing. CSM do not represent chaos societies. They are too extreme. There is no way a society can exist for thousand of years that way.

We have few examples of "normal" chaos societies, but we have some. And the average chaos worshipper´s life is not much worse than the average hive world citizen´s life.

 da001 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Going by the Word Bearers novels, the Chaos Space Marines both dominate Chaotic society and treat anyone who isn't one of them like absolute dirt.

I love those books.

But that´s why I insisted in the "there are very few Chaos Space Marines" thing. CSM do not represent chaos societies. They are too extreme. There is no way a society can exist for thousand of years that way.

We have few examples of "normal" chaos societies, but we have some. And the average chaos worshipper´s life is not much worse than the average hive world citizen.

Generally speaking the Chaos Space Marines sit comfortably at the top of the pecking order whenever Greater Daemons and Daemon princes aren't involved (and even then, some like Ahriman or Abaddon can lord it over them), if you're running a Chaos World and say, a Black Legion Warband says "you're being too nice, these people must SUFFER IN ETERNAL SLAVERY WELP" if you say no, they're liable to do things to you and your people that would make even the biggest gorn fetishist scream in terror.

And there's certainly no real way for you to fight them off. Especially since the Chaos Space Marines are the one with virtually all the real favor from the gods.

I mean, how many Daemon princes are formed out of non-astartes? I only really recall Emilie from the Ciaphas Cain Books and Asphodel who was on the route to daemonhood in the Gaunt's ghosts novels.

Meanwhile, M'kar the failborn can make Daemon Prince after doing nothing more than getting stabbed in the chest.

I think N'kari and Ka'bandha (The khorne demon prince in the dex - I may have the name wrong) were also pre space marine - the demon princes from the 2nd ed chaos book.

Although I've no idea what Foulspawn was before he was a spawn.

 PredaKhaine wrote:
I think N'kari and Ka'bandha (The khorne demon prince in the dex - I may have the name wrong) were also pre space marine - the demon princes from the 2nd ed chaos book.

Although I've no idea what Foulspawn was before he was a spawn.

I believe you mean Doombreed the flaming one, Ka'Bandha is one of the many bloodthirsters currently competing for who's the biggest and baddest (I go with An'ggrath because he has the advantage of an actual statline that's heads and shoulders over Skarbrand).

As for Doombreed's identity...I think there's an answer.

 Kain wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
I think N'kari and Ka'bandha (The khorne demon prince in the dex - I may have the name wrong) were also pre space marine - the demon princes from the 2nd ed chaos book.

Although I've no idea what Foulspawn was before he was a spawn.

I believe you mean Doombreed the flaming one, Ka'Bandha is one of the many bloodthirsters currently competing for who's the biggest and baddest (I go with An'ggrath because he has the advantage of an actual statline that's heads and shoulders over Skarbrand).

As for Doombreed's identity...I think there's an answer.

Yep - I meant Doombreed

 Kain wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Going by the Word Bearers novels, the Chaos Space Marines both dominate Chaotic society and treat anyone who isn't one of them like absolute dirt.

I love those books.

But that´s why I insisted in the "there are very few Chaos Space Marines" thing. CSM do not represent chaos societies. They are too extreme. There is no way a society can exist for thousand of years that way.

We have few examples of "normal" chaos societies, but we have some. And the average chaos worshipper´s life is not much worse than the average hive world citizen.

Generally speaking the Chaos Space Marines sit comfortably at the top of the pecking order whenever Greater Daemons and Daemon princes aren't involved (and even then, some like Ahriman or Abaddon can lord it over them), if you're running a Chaos World and say, a Black Legion Warband says "you're being too nice, these people must SUFFER IN ETERNAL SLAVERY WELP" if you say no, they're liable to do things to you and your people that would make even the biggest gorn fetishist scream in terror.

And there's certainly no real way for you to fight them off. Especially since the Chaos Space Marines are the one with virtually all the real favor from the gods.

I mean, how many Daemon princes are formed out of non-astartes? I only really recall Emilie from the Ciaphas Cain Books and Asphodel who was on the route to daemonhood in the Gaunt's ghosts novels.

Meanwhile, M'kar the failborn can make Daemon Prince after doing nothing more than getting stabbed in the chest.

Sort of.
We see the game from a Space Marine perspective, but we also know that there are very very very few of them. Again: most people do not see a single SM/CSM in their live. The galaxy is vast and they are mostly legends. Most of the chaos forces are part of the Lost and the Damned, a completely different army. Made from humans.

Few sources here, but there are some:
1) Daemonworld. The Witch Queen ruling it had a company of CSM as bodyguards, and defeated a Bloodthirster.
2) Grey Knights (book). There is a society that worships Tzeentch and they are OK. The leader is a priest (who maybe is a Herald) and a big guy which blood is worms.
3) The books about the Sabbat Worlds. Khorne worshippers, ruled by humans.
4) Teturact from The Bleeding Chalice. This is an example of an extremely powerful not-astartes chaos entity. It is not an example of having a good life under the rule of chaos.
5) The slaaneshy leader from Crimson Tears.
6) The society the Blood Gorgons get recruits from.

Actually, the Space Marines obsession has grown worse. Search for good human characters in the old fluff.

Primarch level humans? I can give you three: Luther, Kor Phaeron and Eugen Temba.

EDIT: missed something. Wait... Doombreed is Genghis? Source? I always thought he was Hitler.
EDIT 2: something else. A full demonic invasion is not representative of a human society: they kill humans. Chaos demons, Chaos Space Marines and Chaos "humans" are three different things.

 da001 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Going by the Word Bearers novels, the Chaos Space Marines both dominate Chaotic society and treat anyone who isn't one of them like absolute dirt.

I love those books.

But that´s why I insisted in the "there are very few Chaos Space Marines" thing. CSM do not represent chaos societies. They are too extreme. There is no way a society can exist for thousand of years that way.

We have few examples of "normal" chaos societies, but we have some. And the average chaos worshipper´s life is not much worse than the average hive world citizen.

Generally speaking the Chaos Space Marines sit comfortably at the top of the pecking order whenever Greater Daemons and Daemon princes aren't involved (and even then, some like Ahriman or Abaddon can lord it over them), if you're running a Chaos World and say, a Black Legion Warband says "you're being too nice, these people must SUFFER IN ETERNAL SLAVERY WELP" if you say no, they're liable to do things to you and your people that would make even the biggest gorn fetishist scream in terror.

And there's certainly no real way for you to fight them off. Especially since the Chaos Space Marines are the one with virtually all the real favor from the gods.

I mean, how many Daemon princes are formed out of non-astartes? I only really recall Emilie from the Ciaphas Cain Books and Asphodel who was on the route to daemonhood in the Gaunt's ghosts novels.

Meanwhile, M'kar the failborn can make Daemon Prince after doing nothing more than getting stabbed in the chest.

Sort of.
We see the game from a Space Marine perspective, but we also know that there are very very very few of them. Again: most people do not see a single SM/CSM in their live. The galaxy is vast and they are mostly legends. Most of the chaos forces are part of the Lost and the Damned, a completely different army. Made from humans.

Few sources here, but there are some:
1) Daemonworld. The Witch Queen ruling it had a company of CSM as bodyguards, and defeated a Bloodthirster.
2) Grey Knights (book). There is a society that worships Tzeentch and they are OK. The leader is a priest (who maybe is a Herald) and a big guy which blood is worms.
3) The books about the Sabbat Worlds. Khorne worshippers, ruled by humans.
4) Teturact from The Bleeding Chalice. This is an example of an extremely powerful not-astartes chaos entity. It is not an example of having a good life under the rule of chaos.
5) The slaaneshy leader from Crimson Tears.
6) The society the Blood Gorgons get recruits from.

Actually, the Space Marines obsession has grown worse. Search for good human characters in the old fluff.

Primarch level humans? I can give you three: Luther, Kor Phaeron and Eugen Temba.

EDIT: missed something. Wait... Doombreed is Genghis? Source? I always thought he was Hitler.
EDIT 2: something else. A full demonic invasion is not representative of a human society: they kill humans. Chaos demons, Chaos Space Marines and Chaos "humans" are three different things.

Khorne respects martial prowess and while Hitler won the Iron Cross the hard way, Genghis Khan was a very badass mofo in personal combat. Khan is just the most sensible choice.

Black Crusade from FFG has tons of Chaotic worlds which aren't ruled by Chaos Marines. Several of them aren't too bad in terms of standard of living if you know how to deal with things. They generally lean to various degrees of evil, though, but some no more than most Imperial worlds. Admittingly others, however, are waaaaay worse than even the worst Imperial worlds. Actually, the same goes for standard of living on many, but not all, of them.

For the most part, Chaos' "best" (standard of living, morals) planets overlap with the Imperium's worst ones, with some of Chaos' "best" planets being better than many of the Imperium's "worst" ones. I haven't heard of nor expect anything like Ultramar for Chaos, though, nor will you ever find an Imperial planet that does things like create temples entirely out of human skin or have entire walls bound with tortured souls eternally screaming in "exquisite" anguish (a Slaaneshi planet actually has that).

Q'Sal arguably has a good standard of living for the entire populace even by Imperium standards, but it's a bit hard to compare because it's.... weird (as expected of a Tzeentch planet, I suppose).

 Kain wrote:

Khorne respects martial prowess and while Hitler won the Iron Cross the hard way, Genghis Khan was a very badass mofo in personal combat. Khan is just the most sensible choice.

Perhaps. I don´t think we will ever be given a direct answer. Which is good.
Coming to think of it, Khan created what could be a human-chaos empire. It was an empire created by merits of war, with lots of atrocities going on against the enemy. But those that surrender were treated fairly, and the mogol empire had a lot of redeeming qualities. Religious tolerance, a system based on merit, and exempted teachers, lawyers, and artists from taxes. Here is a quote from the wikipedia: "On the whole, the tight discipline made the Mongol Empire extremely safe and well-run; European travelers were amazed by the organization and strict discipline of the people within the Mongol Empire."

The last part reminds me of old descriptions of Khorne.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Black Crusade from FFG has tons of Chaotic worlds which aren't ruled by Chaos Marines. Several of them aren't too bad in terms of standard of living if you know how to deal with things. They generally lean to various degrees of evil, though, but some no more than most Imperial worlds. Admittingly others, however, are waaaaay worse than even the worst Imperial worlds. Actually, the same goes for standard of living on many, but not all, of them.

For the most part, Chaos' "best" (standard of living, morals) planets overlap with the Imperium's worst ones, with some of Chaos' "best" planets being better than many of the Imperium's "worst" ones. I haven't heard of nor expect anything like Ultramar for Chaos, though, nor will you ever find an Imperial planet that does things like create temples entirely out of human skin or have entire walls bound with tortured souls eternally screaming in "exquisite" anguish (a Slaaneshi planet actually has that).

This is what I thought. Perhaps it is time to get some stuff from Black Crusade.

However, if Chaos SM or Chaos Demons are involved, any human society quickly goes to hell.