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It would not be the death of mankind, but the death of freedom for man and an eternity of servitude

Is this servitude worse than servitude to an corpse on a throne?

Is this servitude worse than servitude to an corpse on a throne?

Not even servitude to a throne but to the a mix of lies told by the guy before he got on the throne and then lies made up about by yes men like the ultras and the ecclesiarchy.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, the forces of chaos want anarchy, not the ruination of mankind. That's why chaos is so devoted to overthrowing the Imperium more than anything else, because the Imperium is imposing a kind of order that's different from what the chaos gods want.

And one of the things the chaos gods do NOT want is the death of mankind, as without man, there are no gods.


... well... there would be gork and mork, but that hardly counts...

Per C, at least Slaanesh ignores causality, so there's actually no reason that they would be destroyed if all of humanity died off, because Schrodinger Chaos Gods.

As for what happens, I doubt they'd actually consume the entire universe. The Eye of Terror is a more likely fate. Few actual large empires like the IOM, but shattered pocket empires, like those ruled by Huron Blackheart or the Iron Warrior fortress worlds.

People have basically made the point already but Khorne=War not madness. Until Monotheism took over the world a thousand years or so ago, almost every society had a god of war that they would have worshipped either as part of a pantheon or singularly. The Roman Empire would have been a perfect breeding ground for any of the chaos gods, they fought bloody wars, were wildly decadent, disease was rife in poor districts of the over crowded city and all of the political backstabbing would have Tzeentch doing his happy dance. The key is that the Chaos god are eternal, if the Imperium falls, mankind loses. But if a Chaos society is wiped out by the Imperium, it only takes a small amount of the victors to be corrupted by the same things their enemies worshipped and the cycle begins anew.

da001 wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Because a few will be turned into half-demon things and the rest will be enslaved or worse. Not exactly a Win for the human race.

This is imperial propaganda.
Look at the Sabbat Worlds: the Imperium is at war with a full civilization that worships Khorne. And they have been doing that since forever. They are humans who worship the god of war (and not the "dumb god of always angry"), and they prosper. They have children and take care of them, they have schools, they have honour.

The Imperial Truth is a lie.

The Sabbat worlds is a big sector with varying degrees of life; that being said the only society under chaos control is rural Gereon.
And it's a fething hole; -The workers have to have leeches (imago) in their arms to have permission to go out at specific times
-The main work is working in either meat foundries or smashing imperial idols
- The farm land is brutally used up in a few years leaving the soil unsuitable for growing food for the populace
- Glyphs, wirewolfs, excubitors, and traitor guardsman subdue the population by any means necessary
- jehgenesh literally steal a planets' resource such as ore or water from that planet.
When we return to Gereon in "The Armour of Contempt" we see a starved dying populace that is barely surviving and barely worth saving; only 2-3 years had passed iirc

On Aexe Cardinal we have 2 warring nations and the blood pact get their claws into one (Shadik Republic) which leaves them fighting an endless trench warfare to the point where there is very few resources (Including man-power) left

Chaos does not preserve; it burns through resources leaving the discarded burn-out remains. The Imperium may be stagnant but it tries to protect it citizens as much as it can while having to produce a massive effort to fight off forces on all sides

The Gods seek to consume the universe, though their mortal agents may have other plans.

As to how, the rule book says:

"If the Emperor fails, then none will be able to stop the influx
of the dark powers; ravenous and all-consuming Daemons will flood into the galaxy. Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind. Reality as it is known will be subsumed by the stuff of Warp space - a realm of nightmares and cruel insanity where all life will end. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos."

There are two options in my eyes for Chaos destroying/conquering the Imperium:
1) The Emperor is killed and the Chaos Gods are given unrestrained power over the Materium and while humanity does fracture into pocket city-state like empires, it survives and probably pushes back all the Xenos.
2) Abaddon conquers Terra and becomes the new Emperor of Mankind, finds some way to block the God's abillity to interact with mankind and destroys any remaining servants of the Gods. Afterwords, Abaddon rules Man and he most likely cleans up the Xenos and makes the Imperium much more stable. Or goes nuts.

Chaos has already won, this is the perfect situation for them

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
There are two options in my eyes for Chaos destroying/conquering the Imperium:
1) The Emperor is killed and the Chaos Gods are given unrestrained power over the Materium and while humanity does fracture into pocket city-state like empires, it survives and probably pushes back all the Xenos.
2) Abaddon conquers Terra and becomes the new Emperor of Mankind, finds some way to block the God's abillity to interact with mankind and destroys any remaining servants of the Gods. Afterwords, Abaddon rules Man and he most likely cleans up the Xenos and makes the Imperium much more stable. Or goes nuts.

Except killing the Emperor would mean the daemons in the imperial webway would come spilling out and the possibility of the Emperor being reborn (see Starchild Theory) as well as extinguishing the Astronoicon; the Imperium currently is geared towards having backwater/safe planets generate resources and transporting them to warzones; this supply would immediately breakdown leaving the battlelines under supplied and more than likely overrun. The imperium would then crumble; inevitably some pocket empires would form but not for long in the face of xenos/chaos threats such as Orks and tyranids which are only just being held at bay

 Ailaros wrote:

And one of the things the chaos gods do NOT want is the death of mankind, as without man, there are no gods.


... well... there would be gork and mork, but that hardly counts...


[/quoteGork (and possibly Mork) would be offended by this.

To answer the OP: bad writing.

Oh good god no, Chaos need Humanity to keep power, structure, ect. Groups such as the Blood Pact or any war band would soon turn sour. Chaos feeds mostly on Human emotion…thus making humanity necessary to keep chaos alive. They just want the end of the false god emperor anyway.

To everyone saying humanity wouldn't be united if Chaos won because not all planets would be chaotic and therefore they would die, that actually sound like an even better argument for humanity uniting under Chaos.

You have two choices: bow to Chaos or go extinct because you have no FTL travel.

I think a lot of planets would be uniting with Chaos pretty damn fast.

Well the Cabal said that if the traitor chapters won the horus heresy, that mankind would perish in two generations and then destroy chaos with them. If the emperor won, which he did, then humanity would be ensured for "10 or 20 thousand years" and then die out and the galaxy would be consumed by chaos.

So according to the Cabal, human extinction does not necessarily equal the extinction of chaos, but it is also the only way to destroy chaos.

 changerofways wrote:
Well the Cabal said that if the traitor chapters won the horus heresy, that mankind would perish in two generations and then destroy chaos with them. If the emperor won, which he did, then humanity would be ensured for "10 or 20 thousand years" and then die out and the galaxy would be consumed by chaos.

So according to the Cabal, human extinction does not necessarily equal the extinction of chaos, but it is also the only way to destroy chaos.

The Cabal said Horus would exterminate humanity under those conditions, not Chaos.

 Dannyevilguy wrote:
The Scorpion and the Frog

A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the
scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The
frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion
says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of
paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"

Replies the scorpion: "Youre dreaming, frogs and scorpions cant talk"

Fix'd


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Archie The Death Rider wrote:
Oh good god no, Chaos need Humanity to keep power, structure, ect. Groups such as the Blood Pact or any war band would soon turn sour. Chaos feeds mostly on Human emotion…thus making humanity necessary to keep chaos alive. They just want the end of the false god emperor anyway.

Youre neglecting, however, the fact that there are other races out there besides humanity. Even if humanity were destroyed, there are still the Eldar, Orks, etc to fuel chaos. Not to mention the Tyranids (who i admittedly do not know whether they affect the warp or not, but it seems logical).
Aside from that though, I think it is more of the intention of Chaos to destroy the Imperium, but not humanity, as a destabilized humanity would soon turn to utter chaos.

On a side note the fluff seems to say different things about chaos making people sterile, only one child was ever born on the night lords covenant ship, although that could just be because of poor nutrition and people dying all the time.

]

 Kain wrote:

A Tyranid Fleet descended on a sector contested by both Nurglite elements loyal to Abaddon and by the Imperium at Belis Corona. The followers of Nurgle found to their dismay that the Tyranids were now utterly immune to any and all of nurgle's blessings, having simply adapted beyond them, while the forces of the Imperium were dismayed on having a new enemy to confront. Only the Eldar's intervention stopped the sector from being lost.

What text is this from?

I should point out that not all Chaos Space Marines are all that bad, besides the Blood Gorgons, there are also the Soul Drinkers, CSMs who believe that they are still loyal to the EOM, just not his Imperium. I don't know all that much about them, but I imagine that they're fairly nice compared to the others.

Soul Drinkers aren't Chaos Marines. They're just mutants who were mutated by Chaos, unvoluntarily. They never swore their soul to Chaos or their loyalty or worked with Chaos (on purpose) or did any chaotic rituals or anything of the sort.

(not including their chaplains and dreadnaught that engineered everything in the first place)

In the end, they died fighting Chaos. Well, the three survivors went into the warp, but that was because they had no where else to go and acknowledged they had no home in either the Imperium or with Chaos.

Contrast this with the Blood Gorgons who do Chaotic rituals often (such as the blood bonding) and actually did swear themselves to Chaos Undivided, for the most part knowing what they were getting into when they did it.

One of the reasons why I like the Warhammer 40k universe if the way that even the 'good' guys are in the moral grey area and that some evil is sometimes completely subjective.

When the Emperor started his campaign to unify the world and the lost colonies of man. He did it with the best intention. He also attempted to starve chaos and look for an alternative way of travel and even went as far as making a deal with the devil (Chaos Gods) to create an army to realize his dreams to fruition.

It was a dream that failed and one can argue he became increasingly aware of it after the betrayal of Horus. However, chaos is not about prosperity and the ultimate lie is the delusion that Chaos will bring about a new enlightenment for humanity. The only creatures that would benefit from chaos are the creatures of the warp.

Now while the Imperium of man has become a bureaucratic nightmare that the Emperor himself would spit on, it is still infinitely better then letting chaos win. There needs to be structure and there's no structure with chaos just chaos...it is by definition toxic to the existence of anything that thrives with structure.

There are some of you that would say that there are chaos worlds and societies that exist within the warp. That's true. There are also worlds in the Imperium that are 'perfect' like the whole Ultrimar reigion.

However, I can't imagine someone telling me that my spouse being gutted and my children sold into slavery before my planet is sacrified to a chaos deity is beneficial towards not only my existence but my prosperity.

Well some would argue a meritocracy parallel to that of the Orks is the best for humanity.

Some inquisitors like the idea to an extend, others... Not so much. And perhaps men are a totally different animal from the green skins

Inkubas wrote:
One of the reasons why I like the Warhammer 40k universe if the way that even the 'good' guys are in the moral grey area and that some evil is sometimes completely subjective.

When the Emperor started his campaign to unify the world and the lost colonies of man. He did it with the best intention. He also attempted to starve chaos and look for an alternative way of travel and even went as far as making a deal with the devil (Chaos Gods) to create an army to realize his dreams to fruition.

It was a dream that failed and one can argue he became increasingly aware of it after the betrayal of Horus. However, chaos is not about prosperity and the ultimate lie is the delusion that Chaos will bring about a new enlightenment for humanity. The only creatures that would benefit from chaos are the creatures of the warp.

Now while the Imperium of man has become a bureaucratic nightmare that the Emperor himself would spit on, it is still infinitely better then letting chaos win. There needs to be structure and there's no structure with chaos just chaos...it is by definition toxic to the existence of anything that thrives with structure.

There are some of you that would say that there are chaos worlds and societies that exist within the warp. That's true. There are also worlds in the Imperium that are 'perfect' like the whole Ultrimar reigion.

However, I can't imagine someone telling me that my spouse being gutted and my children sold into slavery before my planet is sacrified to a chaos deity is beneficial towards not only my existence but my prosperity.

For the most part I think Imperium worlds on average are nicer than chaos worlds, if you just do some quick eye-ball comparisons of various chaos and order planets. I don't think Chaos ever promised a plushy life, though. The main promises from Chaos that I recall at the moment is mainly that the Imperium is holding mankind back from the power needed to defend itself against the many things in the galaxy/universe poised against it. Although Slaanesh also motivated the Emperor's Children by showing them visions of galaxy for humanity where basically everyone was happy because nothing was morally wrong (after all, all those torturous and horrific chaos lifestyles and fighting isn't so bad if everyone is having a good time. ...kinda like Orks when I think about it).

But yea, pretty sure Chaos never really promised a better standard of living (Better from an outsider looking in, not from the "orks" on the inside). The Imperium's definitely better for that as far as I can tell