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Thanks for clarifying that. Apologies to Frazzled.

You know what they say, " to know me is to run screaming."

 motyak wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 motyak wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Christers being persecuted? Sounds like sweet, sweet, Karmic justice to me.

Because all current Christians have persecuted other people? Or out of some misguided need to see folks you disagree with persecuted?

Just curious as to your reasoning.

I'm thinking B.

I must have misunderstood him, or maybe I just hope that people are more reasonable than they appear in writing. I thought that, by "christers", he meant the kind of christian who hates gays/blacks/whatever with the burning passion that seb' posts showed that the guy holds. Not Christians in general. But I could have been off, maybe he'll clarify.

Apologies, ive been buisy lately. I was infact refering partly to those such as the west baptist church, whom persecute all they disagree with and picket dead soldiers funerals.
I was also refering slightly to the witch burnings. Centurys of innocents being drowned, burnt and crushed leaves quite a big Karmic debt.

So you think modern day Christians who are perfectly nice people deserve to suffer for something done hundreds of years ago? Thanks for clarifying that. Apologies to Frazzled.

As opposed to those who believe that babies born out of wedlock are going to burn in hell, or women who sleep with men outside of wedlock are going to burn in hell, or men who sleep with men are going to burn in hell, or that people are going to burn in hell because eve ate an apple and force fed it to adam and if we dont accept jebus and have some magic water splashed on us we cannot be seen by god as truely accepting of him(or whatever the hell it means)?

I'm happy to see that thinking that it is somewhat "karmically just" that the extreme fringes of christianity are considered as hate groups goes so much againat your moral compass you are happy enough to pass judgement upon some daring to suggest such.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 motyak wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 motyak wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Christers being persecuted? Sounds like sweet, sweet, Karmic justice to me.

Because all current Christians have persecuted other people? Or out of some misguided need to see folks you disagree with persecuted?

Just curious as to your reasoning.

I'm thinking B.

I must have misunderstood him, or maybe I just hope that people are more reasonable than they appear in writing. I thought that, by "christers", he meant the kind of christian who hates gays/blacks/whatever with the burning passion that seb' posts showed that the guy holds. Not Christians in general. But I could have been off, maybe he'll clarify.

Apologies, ive been buisy lately. I was infact refering partly to those such as the west baptist church, whom persecute all they disagree with and picket dead soldiers funerals.
I was also refering slightly to the witch burnings. Centurys of innocents being drowned, burnt and crushed leaves quite a big Karmic debt.

So you think modern day Christians who are perfectly nice people deserve to suffer for something done hundreds of years ago? Thanks for clarifying that. Apologies to Frazzled.

As opposed to those who believe that babies born out of wedlock are going to burn in hell, or women who sleep with men outside of wedlock are going to burn in hell, or men who sleep with men are going to burn in hell, or that people are going to burn in hell because eve ate an apple and force fed it to adam and if we dont accept jebus and have some magic water splashed on us we cannot be seen by god as truely accepting of him(or whatever the hell it means)?

I'm happy to see that thinking that it is somewhat "karmically just" that the extreme fringes of christianity are considered as hate groups goes so much againat your moral compass you are happy enough to pass judgement upon some daring to suggest such.

So your argument is that all Christians are haters then. Thats exceptionally brilliant AND bigoted at the same time.

 Frazzled wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

I'm happy to see that thinking that it is somewhat "karmically just" that the extreme fringes of christianity are considered as hate groups goes so much againat your moral compass you are happy enough to pass judgement upon some daring to suggest such.

So your argument is that all Christians are haters then. Thats exceptionally brilliant AND bigoted at the same time.

That doesn't appear to be what he said.

 dogma wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

I'm happy to see that thinking that it is somewhat "karmically just" that the extreme fringes of christianity are considered as hate groups goes so much againat your moral compass you are happy enough to pass judgement upon some daring to suggest such.

So your argument is that all Christians are haters then. Thats exceptionally brilliant AND bigoted at the same time.

That doesn't appear to be what he said.

It's ok - I'm used to fraz' now

 dogma wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

I'm happy to see that thinking that it is somewhat "karmically just" that the extreme fringes of christianity are considered as hate groups goes so much againat your moral compass you are happy enough to pass judgement upon some daring to suggest such.

So your argument is that all Christians are haters then. Thats exceptionally brilliant AND bigoted at the same time.

That doesn't appear to be what he said.

It is actually.

Sorry to say this fraz, but it isnt...

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Sorry to say this fraz, but it isnt...

So what do you consider "an extreme fringe" of Christianity?

GG

 generalgrog wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Sorry to say this fraz, but it isnt...

So what do you consider "an extreme fringe" of Christianity?

GG

Well... i am tempted to say it is quite obviously the most extreme subsection of those who either call themselvesor could be considered christian. Those who through words, action or belief (though the latter cannot really be determimed or matter without the first two) have put thselves beyond the realm of reasonable behaviour.

In the specific case of chriatianity, i thinl we can all agree on what a "reasonable christian" wpuld be (no claims om this being an exhaustive liat as i am currrently crossing london on public transport and typing on phone but even if i had acceas to all the worka of man, there will always be something to miss ) - generally someone who lives a life by the guidancr set forward in the bible, lives constrained by human law, is thoughtful of their actions and how they affect others, undrrstandung that others live by different beluefs, etc... generally entirely the same as a reasonable peraon of any othrr religion ot lack there of.

The extreme fringe would contain people who push their religious vews (or some specific aspect of them) to the fore, generally to a point where they become the cebtral part of their existance, where they are uncapable of accepting that other people live other ways and acting hostiley towards those people either in attitude or physical.

I would suggeat the extreme fringe would include those with extremely stong views which conflict with those of society as a whole - people very stongly opposed to abortion, against non-married sex, using religiin to act against those of other races or religions etc.

Hopefully that covers some things - very hard to keep track of what i have written on pgone, so i will probably have missed stuff and not saud things well. Will not be able to reply point for point to any replies.

 Frazzled wrote:

It is actually.

So your claim is that all Christians believe...

 SilverMK2 wrote:
...that babies born out of wedlock are going to burn in hell, or women who sleep with men outside of wedlock are going to burn in hell, or men who sleep with men are going to burn in hell, or that people are going to burn in hell because eve ate an apple and force fed it to adam and if we dont accept jebus and have some magic water splashed on us we cannot be seen by god as truely accepting of him(or whatever the hell it means)?

If so, that's ridiculous. I know many Christians who do not make those claims.

The amount of generalisation and hypocrisy in this thread is ridiculous.

It's like when people try to claim that Stalin being an Atheist equates all Atheists as being evil. It's silly and juvenile, and is really just the association fallacy in it's purest form.

 dogma wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

It is actually.

So your claim is that all Christians believe...

 SilverMK2 wrote:
...that babies born out of wedlock are going to burn in hell, or women who sleep with men outside of wedlock are going to burn in hell, or men who sleep with men are going to burn in hell, or that people are going to burn in hell because eve ate an apple and force fed it to adam and if we dont accept jebus and have some magic water splashed on us we cannot be seen by god as truely accepting of him(or whatever the hell it means)?

If so, that's ridiculous. I know many Christians who do not make those claims.

For the most part, they don't. My MiL though... ugh... my wife marrying me was the "worst mistake of her life" according to the MiL, all due to me being an atheist. I'm still pissed about that 8 years later.

Nah, she just doesn't like you.

 Frazzled wrote:
Nah, she just doesn't like you.

She's required by Law to not like him

It's in the fine print on the marriage license...

Exactly.

 generalgrog wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Sorry to say this fraz, but it isnt...

So what do you consider "an extreme fringe" of Christianity?

GG

The Orange Institution? The Klan? The 2011 witch killings in Peru? The Christian Identity?

How the hell....
Okay i started this so i will finish it.
I did not mean Christians in general. Some of my friends are Christians and are perfectly nice peple.

Im on about the hate groups. Those whom condemn others. The extremists whom think that gays, bis, pagans, unmarried couples, etc are evil and should burn.
Those whom will kill because they think it is their right to do so to those whom differ from them.

I hope that this clarifys things and clears them up.
And more fool me for getting involved in a religious thread on Dakka.

MOO.

 master of ordinance wrote:
How the hell....
Okay i started this so i will finish it.
I did not mean Christians in general. Some of my friends are Christians and are perfectly nice peple.

Im on about the hate groups. Those whom condemn others. The extremists whom think that gays, bis, pagans, unmarried couples, etc are evil and should burn.
Those whom will kill because they think it is their right to do so to those whom differ from them.

I hope that this clarifys things and clears them up.
And more fool me for getting involved in a religious thread on Dakka.

MOO.

The progblem of course is, to be a Christian means to follow Christ. If you're not a Christian/baptized, you're not getting past the angelic rent a cops. So pagans by definition are going to have a problem. Now this of course doesn't address the issue of whether there are other means, or if Heaven can be entered through the means according to each person's faith.

 Frazzled wrote:
or if Heaven can be entered through the means according to each person's faith.

Or if there is no heaven, hell, afterlife or "higher power" and we are all just hating on one another for no reason.

All of which is besides the point, which we seem to have skipped ever further away from - whether the particular group(s) listed in the presentation are legitimate "hate groups", if so, why, and if not, why/how have they been included.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 generalgrog wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Sorry to say this fraz, but it isnt...

So what do you consider "an extreme fringe" of Christianity?

GG

Well... i am tempted to say it is quite obviously the most extreme subsection of those who either call themselvesor could be considered christian....etc.

I was hoping you would identify a certain group or groups, but I understand that you were in transit and not really able to answer that question fully.

Let me just throw out a problem with using the term "extreme fringe" without identifying a group by name. It makes it hard for us to "calibrate" ourselves with your definition. So let me jump in here with what I would call "extreme fringe".

One thing to remember as well, certain "extreme fringe" Christian groups present them selves as Christian organizations but are really nothing more than cults, and therefore not really Christian.

So my example of "extreme fringe" Christianity

1: Westboro Baptist
2:Christian Identity movement (I.E. skin head/ KKK)
3-10 I'm sure I've forgotten some

I do not consider the AFA an "extreme fringe" group.

GG

 generalgrog wrote:
I do not consider the AFA an "extreme fringe" group.

Considering you are a pretty conservative Christian, that isn't surprising, but to non-Christians, non-conservative Christians, and, I would imagine, gays of all stripes, they are.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 motyak wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 motyak wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Christers being persecuted? Sounds like sweet, sweet, Karmic justice to me.

Because all current Christians have persecuted other people? Or out of some misguided need to see folks you disagree with persecuted?

Just curious as to your reasoning.

I'm thinking B.

I must have misunderstood him, or maybe I just hope that people are more reasonable than they appear in writing. I thought that, by "christers", he meant the kind of christian who hates gays/blacks/whatever with the burning passion that seb' posts showed that the guy holds. Not Christians in general. But I could have been off, maybe he'll clarify.

Apologies, ive been buisy lately. I was infact refering partly to those such as the west baptist church, whom persecute all they disagree with and picket dead soldiers funerals.
I was also refering slightly to the witch burnings. Centurys of innocents being drowned, burnt and crushed leaves quite a big Karmic debt.

So you think modern day Christians who are perfectly nice people deserve to suffer for something done hundreds of years ago? Thanks for clarifying that. Apologies to Frazzled.

As opposed to those who believe that babies born out of wedlock are going to burn in hell, or women who sleep with men outside of wedlock are going to burn in hell, or men who sleep with men are going to burn in hell, or that people are going to burn in hell because eve ate an apple and force fed it to adam and if we dont accept jebus and have some magic water splashed on us we cannot be seen by god as truely accepting of him(or whatever the hell it means)?

I'm happy to see that thinking that it is somewhat "karmically just" that the extreme fringes of christianity are considered as hate groups goes so much againat your moral compass you are happy enough to pass judgement upon some daring to suggest such.

The thing is, he didn't say that the extremist groups would be the ones to pay that debt. He may have meant it, but he didn't write it. I too believe that Westboro, KKK, all those groups are evil, even the AFA, because if you are going around bashing any kind of people then there is a very serious problem (not literally bashing in their case, but it still stands). But what is the difference between saying that all gays are bad because gay (I don't think their reasoning goes much past this), and all christians should suffer from some karmic debt because hundreds of years ago bad stuff happened. Ridiculous. Why not say Germany should suffer karmic bitchslaps for the next few hundred years, why not America for the whole indian thing, Spain for the Incans, how can you say that me saying 'thats the wrong thing to say' is the same as me saying all that horrible stuff you said in your first paragraph? I'm just as against the hate groups present in my religion, and in any other part of society, as any of you. I just don't like when the vitriol reaches down and touches the normal christians who are just nice people (not saying all are nice people, but the regular christians who are. I'm not sure if there needs to be a comma there or not to get that across, so I figured explaining it was easier). If MoO meant just the hate groups in terms of paying back that debt, then sure, I can understand where he is coming from. But if he meant all christians, he is starting to cross that same line.

edit: missed MoO's post. Good to hear he meant the extremists, the ones who hate perfectly nice people who happen to be gay/black/whatever else that group happens to hate. I do resent silver saying that I think they aren't hate groups though. I'm pretty sure in this thread I agreed (or maybe it was another one on Westboro or something, one of the crazy groups).

 generalgrog wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Sorry to say this fraz, but it isnt...

So what do you consider "an extreme fringe" of Christianity?

GG

Snake handlers
Clinic bombers/ Doctor murderers
Faith healers
Straight camps

Off the top of my head Feeder I would strike out Faith Healers and Snake Handlers. Being they are more in danger of themselves (Snake Handlers) and the other a extortion (Faith Healer)

National Liberation Front of Tripura (India)
Iron Guard and Lăncieri (Romania)
Army of God (US and due to bombing clinics) I won't add in others due to individual members actions
Hutaree for going with training to how to make and employ IED's
Orange Volunters in UK. Not sure if their still active.

Extemists groups above. There are others on a "Watch List" but label as Hate groups.

 Jihadin wrote:
Off the top of my head Feeder I would strike out Faith Healers and Snake Handlers. Being they are more in danger of themselves (Snake Handlers) and the other a extortion (Faith Healer)

You don't think intentionally poisoning yourself is extreme? Being extreme isn't the same thing as being a terrorist, after all.

Well Ahtman. Look at this from another angle. Snake Handler placing his/her trust in God screwing around with Nature's critters with fangs with their conviction. A suicide bomber placing his/her trust into their God to see the "Promise Land" dying in a righteous cause.

Who ever the suicide bomber kills in their attack is their servants in the after life.

Edit

Above comment

That popped in my head because I think its been never mention in all our talks about Suicide Bombers.

 Jihadin wrote:
Off the top of my head Feeder I would strike out Faith Healers and Snake Handlers. Being they are more in danger of themselves (Snake Handlers) and the other a extortion (Faith Healer)

National Liberation Front of Tripura (India)
Iron Guard and Lăncieri (Romania)
Army of God (US and due to bombing clinics) I won't add in others due to individual members actions
Hutaree for going with training to how to make and employ IED's
Orange Volunters in UK. Not sure if their still active.

Extemists groups above. There are others on a "Watch List" but label as Hate groups.

I was going with "taking faith to the extreme" type of Christian. Someone who thinks God gives a re-rollable 2+ vs venom is pretty extreme IMO. Likewise, someone who genuinely believes (not a con artist) that they can remove tumors, polio etc by laying on hands and praying hard enough is too.

 Jihadin wrote:
Well Ahtman. Look at this from another angle. Snake Handler placing his/her trust in God screwing around with Nature's critters with fangs with their conviction. A suicide bomber placing his/her trust into their God to see the "Promise Land" dying in a righteous cause.

Who ever the suicide bomber kills in their attack is their servants in the after life.

They both seem pretty extreme, one is also a terrorist where the other isn't. One can hold extreme beliefs without harming others, or can harm others indirectly, like when people won't take their kid to the doctor for medicine/treatment when they are seriously sick becuase god will heal them.

Surely you would establish the "extreme" identity of a Christian sect by reference to its differences from "standard" Christianity.

Naturally this poses the problem of first defining standard Christianity.

Like looking at all the Christian groups in the world and finding out what is universal or close to universal for them and use that as the definition for standard Christian? Or would things become too generalized to be meaningful if that occurred?