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Banbaji wrote:

Now this is the part where somebody finds a stupid mistake in my math.

You're not taking into account that an Explodes! result is essentially a loss of 2/3/4 Hull Points, which would increase the power of AP2/1 weapons relative to others.

I think that labmouse nailed it. On the units that automatically get AsC they are good but the upgrade cost is ~10 pts too high on most platforms (the HB is a joke in most cases as its price vs other options is ridiculous, attack bikes are the only place they are semi reasonably priced, ie. 10 pt difference between MM and HB). The only place AsC can beat out the other weapons is flexibility and killing AV10 rear armour. This leads to 1 unit that can use it reasonably well...Tac Termies...which are overpriced by ~1/3 their point cost.

The AsC is about tied with CML in almost all situations. Each has it's own benefits and the difference between their ranges is usually not important due to DS. Termies are in a tough place these days though so probably doesn't matter.

Weren't termies in a tougher place last edition when every power weapon could slice them to shreds?

And weren't Hammernators even worse off in 4th edition when their Stormshields merely gave them a 4+ inv. in close combat and otherwise they were identical to tactical terminators?

The "gold standard" terminators, i.e. TH/SS termies for 40 points, are no longer available to either Space Marines or Black Templar.

Meanwhile, many other units have gotten significant buffs. Tau Fire Warriors, Eldar Guardians, Tactical Marines of all stripes, etc. They're having to compete against more effective units, elsewhere.

Edit: Or Dark Angels. Didn't they get TH/SS termies at 40 points back in the day? I forget.

Corollax wrote:
The "gold standard" terminators, i.e. TH/SS termies for 40 points

I believe it was the 4th edition codex that set the price for the TH/SS terminator to 40 points. Except back then, they died just as easily to plasma fire as normal terminators. They merely had a 4+ inv. in cc. This made dual Lightning claw terminators a better pick than the hammernator, given that they had +1 attack, struck at initiative, and re-rolled failed wounds while the hammernator wounded easier, but had 1 less attack and struck last. And frankly because 5 tactical terminators could take 2 heavy weapons, assault termies were hardly lucrative.

They received a ridiculous boost in 5th when this got bumped to a 3++ inv not only in cc, but also at range. But LC termies were still viable.

6th ed has made LC termies into a pile of gakk, so obviously 9 out of 10 people will take Hammernators over them, which is why a points increase is justified, I think.

Bring back 4th ed rending tbh...

Termies have been in a rough place since 3ed ie since their save went to 2+ on 1D6. They cost 3x the price of a TAC marine now with less that 2x the capability.

For a short period of time the TH/SS termies saw a ray of light due to meta shifts and the 3++ all the time. And Tac termies were actually pretty good in black templars when they were allowed 2 heavy weapons per 5 man unit. Chaos termies are pretty good for the same reason as they can get combi weapons on every termie.

Don't DA get Assault Cannons for only 20pts now? Hopefully it stays that way going forward.

It was good in 5th, the change in Vehicle Damage tables has really put a damper on its AT ability, unfortunately the price was not dropped slightly to match.

Its a good weapon if its free or comes stock, but not worth many of the upgrade costs associated with it. And of course, its range can be a huge concern.

GW likes to cost things based on:
how much they cost before (GW usually doesn't like to change points costs for weapons and wargear)
and potential (GW likes to charge a premium for the potential to do a lot of damage, whether or not you can reliably do a lot of damage)

Personally, I do like Assault Cannons. I like the flexibility they provide.

IMHO termies should run about 30 points.

I base that on the cost of Honor Guard, which I think are appropriately costed.

Terminators cannot sweep and they are bulky. They have a 1/3 invun save, get storm bolters, relentless, and can deep strike. That's worth a 20% price increase.

Disagree.

Lychguard are costlier and they cant even deep strike, and Wraithguard can't either.

35 point termies shoud be okay.

35 points:

termies: 2+ save, 5+ inv., powerfists, 2 base attacks, deep strike

wraithguard: deadly 12" ranged weapon, T6

lychguard: T5, WBB, 4++ inv.

I think Terminators should be in the neighborhood of ...

30pts for 2+/5++ Power Sword and Storm Bolter
+5pts for Powerfist or Pair of Lightning Claws
+10pts for ThunderHammer Storm Shield

The Baal at least can move 12", fire, and is AV 13. It is still one of the better platforms for the AC, but it costs quite a few points.

ACs don't suck. But imperial platforms and the points cost often make them kind of poor and over costed.

 labmouse42 wrote:
IMHO termies should run about 30 points.

I base that on the cost of Honor Guard, which I think are appropriately costed.

Terminators cannot sweep and they are bulky. They have a 1/3 invun save, get storm bolters, relentless, and can deep strike. That's worth a 20% price increase.

You cant be serious about the price on the Honour Guard. That amount of Ompf for 25p makes them one of the most price worth units in the game.
I dont know any other unit that gets that much for 25p. Just compare them to the GK Purifiers for 25p each. Those were one of the best units not a long time ago and is now shadowed by the Honour Guard.
Honour Guards have +1 attack (+2 with the banner), 2+ save, flexible powerweapons and chapter tactics.

Back to the topic:
I think the Assault Cannon is great. Its such a flexible weapon. A Lascannon might be better at killing Landraiders, but not by much. And the Assaultcannon is way better att killing everything else.
It deserves some drawbacks, like short range and the price.
The problem is usually the delivery system as mentioned before. The Assault Cannon doesn't really fit on some units.

 Vombat wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
IMHO termies should run about 30 points.

I base that on the cost of Honor Guard, which I think are appropriately costed.

Terminators cannot sweep and they are bulky. They have a 1/3 invun save, get storm bolters, relentless, and can deep strike. That's worth a 20% price increase.

You cant be serious about the price on the Honour Guard. That amount of Ompf for 25p makes them one of the most price worth units in the game.
I dont know any other unit that gets that much for 25p. Just compare them to the GK Purifiers for 25p each. Those were one of the best units not a long time ago and is now shadowed by the Honour Guard.
Honour Guards have +1 attack (+2 with the banner), 2+ save, flexible powerweapons and chapter tactics.

Purifiers have Cleansing Flame, Force Weapons and access to 4 Psycannons, as well as Storm Bolters. Purifiers were never a melee unit, just like Codex: Grey Knights isn't a melee-centric Codex. You also can't take Honour Guard as troops or make them scoring with Grand Strategy, and you don't have to take a specific HQ to be allowed to take them as Elites.

There's a reason no one took Honour Guard in the old Space Marine Codex.

The prime armies they shine against, hordes and nids and orks and such, are very underplayed right now due to crap assault rules. That also helps contribute to poor performance.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Banbaji wrote:

Now this is the part where somebody finds a stupid mistake in my math.

You're not taking into account that an Explodes! result is essentially a loss of 2/3/4 Hull Points, which would increase the power of AP2/1 weapons relative to others.

Well, that only really applies to the lascannon, which has twice the chance for an explodes result. The chance of each of the weapons discussed above causing an explodes result is as follows:

Autocannon
AV 10 = 0.15
AV 11 = 0.11
AV 12 = 0.074
AV 13 = 0.037

Lascannon
AV 10 = 0.22
AV 11 = 0.19
AV 12 = 0.15
AV 13 = 0.11
AV 14 = 0.074

AC
AV 10 = 0.22
AV 11 = 0.15
AV 12 = 0.074
AV 13 = 0.074
AV 14 = 0.049

Krak
AV 10 = 0.093
AV 11 = 0.074
AV 12 = 0.056
AV 13 = 0.037
AV 14 = 0.019

Make of that what you will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
The Baal at least can move 12", fire, and is AV 13. It is still one of the better platforms for the AC, but it costs quite a few points.

ACs don't suck. But imperial platforms and the points cost often make them kind of poor and over costed.

This I generally agree with.

I look at it this way. If scatterlasers or starcannons had ranges of 24", how much more in harm's way would warwalkers have to get? But with 36', they usually get their pick of cover and/or LOS blocking terrain and they utilize their battle focus to move in and out.

The actual results from firing the assault cannon is not the problem. It's the cost, combined with the range, combined with what actually can take the thing.

It's very rare that I consider even using an Assault Cannon.

To me, they simply aren't worth it; either I'm going for close-range blowing up, in which case I'll use melta, or long-range trifling, in which case Lascannons or Missile launchers win.

Assault cannons are in the weird medium range that is owned by Grey Knights and Necrons. Putting yourself into that range without significant ability to deal the appropriate amount of damage to what you're intending to destroy is not a good idea. Especially if the only way to ensure that the weapon does it's job is to take two of them.

I'll pay to put them in two places. Tac terminators and general purpose dreadnoughts.

Both of these units I use in a troubleshooter role. The dread ambles along on foot, supporting my advance across the table. The terminators DS in and deal with whatever I need them to. The assault cannon's flexibility means that whatever I need it to do, it has a fair shot of handling it. Sure, it might not be the optimal weapon for the job, but it can still get it done.

It seems most competitive lists don't adhere to the TAC philosophy, preferring to specialize and overwhelm their opponents. The assault cannon is a generalist weapon, so doesn't fit with that mindset. And why pay a premium for a weapon that doesn't fit your philosophy?

And it is an expensive gun, and one that needs to be close to work. Which makes fragile platforms, like speeders and razorbacks, a poor choice for deployment. And since AV12 and 2+ saves aren't what they used to be, the "sturdy" platforms aren't as reliable as we'd like.

Which units does it seem costly on?

assault cannon is expensive because of 4th ed spamming when SM could take tons of them in army. In response GW heavily restricted them and raised their cost, forgetting the actual reason they were so powerful (spamming and 4th edition).

Now they're nothing special but were never readjusted.

Some of them did though. Terminator Assault Cannon are down by 1/3, which is appreciable.

It's the most 'all round' weapon as it can potentially scratch anything that comes into it's range, no matter how tough; I guess it pays for it's versatility.

But rending is incredibly unreliable; I don't ever count on getting a rend from a single assault cannon, and with that philosophy suddenly the weapon is very pedestrian.

Which is exactly the problem. Relying on 6's to do damage is not good. If you have two in a unit, maybe, but if that unit is 440 points for two assault cannons and a bunch of nigh-useless bodies with a huge DS footprint, that's not good.

If the imperials magically had a war walker hull, and could mount 6 X assault cannons in a squad, the 24" range would still be an issue.

I think one of the biggest problems is the upgrade costs for Imperial vehicles is grossly out of whack compared to the other 6th edition codices.

To upgrade a razorback from TL HB to TL AC, you have to pay 20 points. Look at the upgrade costs for the Wave Serpent, its 5 points to upgrade the TL shurikan cannon to the far superior TL star cannon and more utilitarian TL scatter laser. Its almost as if GW actually took into consideration the actual cost of a weapon when calculating the price of upgrades for the Eldar codex, a concept that escapes them for Imperials.

Imperial vehicle upgrade costs in general are ridiculous. 30 points for a typhoon missile launcher? Lascannons are typically 20 points or more. And these are all on low AV platforms that are slower than other armies (and thus can't fire all of their weapons when moving). The one platform that is durable and can always fire multiple weapons at combat speed is the LR, and oh, you can't upgrade any of the weapons on it.

I think the Stormtalon is a good place for the AC, especially because you get it twin-linked. In fact it's even better than a Land Raider's TL-AC because against most targets it is BS 5. Plus the Stormtalon has more mobility than the LR and I think what tops it all off is that it's actually a BS 5 TL-AC with Skyfire and Interceptor (but BS 4 against Flyers and FMCs).

It makes for a nice combo with the Skyhammer ML and the entire thing isnt too costly either - a single round of shooting can bring down the costlier Crimson Hunter or Hemlock Wraithfighter.

 Sir Arun wrote:


It makes for a nice combo with the Skyhammer ML and the entire thing isnt too costly either - a single round of shooting can bring down the costlier Crimson Hunter or Hemlock Wraithfighter.

Agreed, plus I like using the unique weapon systems when I can.