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I have just gotten back into 40k. The last time I played was 2nd edition. Since then a lot has changed and I have tryed to find a way to use my terminators in an effective role and just can't find one. It seems to me like the weakness in there armor is just volume of shots (you have to roll a 1 sometime) so deepstriking them into a group of troops is a waste of time. They also lack any kind of real heavy weapon for tank busting. So deepstriking them next to a tank seems like a waste of time. And since they can't assault on the same turn as they deepstrike they are worthless in an assault role. I have tried with DW termies and recently got the new SM codex and started an Ultramarine army. I just can't seem to have a game where they last past the first turn or do much of anything but draw fire.

How are you using your termies and what success are you having?

Btw the two armies I play against most often are Tau and Eldar.

They look really pretty on the shelf.

yeah, seems right those are the 2 fotm armies. and TEQ armies will NOT do well against them for the most part. well marines in general. but, if like me you continue to use bad units because you like them. Terminators are best used as an "aggro" grabber. they will be the targets of enemy fire soon as they pop onto the table, use them to crush a flank, and distract his fire, but make sure you move the rest of your paltry army up to support them/take advantage of their diversion.

Note: I suggest TH/SS if you want them to be beefy. but you lose the paltry firepower they bring (unless your DA who then can bring a mix in each squad ) but they will die, horribly fast.

Terminator models make really good display models to show off in your glass display cases. Other than that they are plain rubbish. 1 wound toughness 4 models that cost 40+ points are what is wrong with 40k. Oh they have a 2+ armor save? How many 1's will you be rolling on 10 saves?

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:
Terminator models make really good display models to show off in your glass display cases. Other than that they are plain rubbish. 1 wound toughness 4 models that cost 40+ points are what is wrong with 40k. Oh they have a 2+ armor save? How many 1's will you be rolling on 10 saves?

4, I think.

That's my experience, anyway.

All models in terminator armour should be toughness +1 like deathwing knights and have 2 wounds like paladins, those 2 things would give them the resilience they are supposed to have and able to actually fulfill their intended purpose.

On top of that let them take 2 heavy weapons per 5 models and the sergeants able to take wargear.

These simple changes would make them usable.

Terminators play the role of making everybody build their lists around fighting tons of 2+ saves when nobody actually fields them.

herpguy wrote:
Terminators play the role of making everybody build their lists around fighting tons of 2+ saves when nobody actually fields them.

Unless you're Eldar, where even your basic troops have quasi-rending, so you don't need to

Yeap, it is a shame that they don't have 2 wounds, with the number of AP2 weapons, they die really quickly.

Tau laugh at terminators, but it's not like they're building lists around fighting them. Their str8 ap2 pie plates wreck just about anything and are not cost prohibitive, so why not take 'em? Termies ain't nothin' special.

If only I could figure out how to convert mine to bikes lol

Only thing that really works out for me with them is the minimum body termicide unit, dropping in combi meltas on a land raider or plasmas on an opposing tough enemy. They look so cool but alas they don't play it. My deathwing are up on a shelf until next edition hopefully.

I have said it before and i'll say it again, terminators work one of two ways.

1. They roll average or worse and become a point sink and just be utterly useless the whole game.

2. They roll above average and make movie marines look tame in comparison.

herpguy wrote:
Terminators play the role of making everybody build their lists around fighting tons of 2+ saves when nobody actually fields them.

High volume small arms fire, AP1, and AP2 is not anti-terminator tailoring, it's stuff everyone should be taking. Why would you purposely make your army with low amount of guns, no AP1, and no AP2? That's stupid.

Mine fufil the roll of reminding me no matter what kind of fluff a unit has or how cool it looks, sometimes its just not worth buying. So they have made me save money over the years on poor decisions like at one point wanting a tau flyer, or wasting money to convert up ork flash gits.

 Krellnus wrote:
I have said it before and i'll say it again, terminators work one of two ways.

1. They roll average or worse and become a point sink and just be utterly useless the whole game.

2. They roll above average and make movie marines look tame in comparison.

"Rolling really well" is not "working", it's luck. Needing luck for a unit to work isn't a sound strategy.

Terminators should be 30-32 points in the current meta game, not 40. Of if they are going to cost 40+ they need to crank up both their damage output and staying power.

The can work well as a bully unit that can stick around and contest that objective end game. People see termies and think they should ram them right into the middle of the enemy. What you really need to do is DS them on that backfield objective the opponent left their long fangs or artillery on.

I will however admit that termies are very overpriced. The two books they are best in are CSM and GK where they can be given better weapons; combi-X or be turned into paladins.

The DW can work to a degree but they need to be played with extreme finesse so you can scalpel away the important units in the opponent's army.

Warlords do well in terminator armor. Gives them some extra durability. Not to mention they usually already have 2 or more wounds, and can be hidden in squads that are much cheaper than Termies and can soak up more wounds. There are obvious exceptions. Biker lords. Shrike. A couple others. But Termies as a squad just don't cut it anymore. They look awesome, but they just don't have enough bang for their buck.

termies with Mark of Tzeentch and 4+ inv save could be very usefull : your opponent would waste a lot of shots to take them down.

I play them with mark of Khorne in a Land Raider with dirg caster : if you reach CC they would be really impressive.

The biggest problem with Terminators right now is their cost -- they're just too damn expensive for their survivability buff over regular tacticals. As others have said, you're doubling the tactical's survivability while more than doubling their cost, so despite seeming more tough, they're actually more fragile to sustained fire. The reason you think they're tough is that, in previous editions when firepower was less strong, the few attacks that struck a TDA armored fellow could just bounce off if you are good at not rolling ones when it's necessary. Now that the number of shots has gone up radically, averages come into play more, so that 2+ save is only just twice as good as a 3+, and Terminators are generally not strong enough to justify their increased cost anymore.

The TDA armored guys you do occasionally see are those where the TDA is priced appropriately: Wolf Guard and CSM Terminators. They're around 30 or so points at their base level, and here they're worthwhile, because you basically get a free power weapon alongside the double survivability at around double the cost of the PA alternative. Even then, they're rather niche, but they are viable. On the other side, Paladins are still seen, because even at 55 points, you get WS5, 2W, and a good number of powerful special weapons. The 2W combined with the 2+ makes them worth it, whereas normal GKT aren't worth it in general. Deathwing Terminators are expensive and have no additional survivability over other Terminators, and their firepower just doesn't cut it compared to, say, Ravenwing, so you don't see competitive DW lists.

Terminators in general need to be cut in price, like at least 5 points, maybe 8-10 for them to be really viable again. Either that, or Close Combat needs to come back in a big way.

I would love to see terminator armour become 3+ on 2d6. *Then* they'd be worth 40 points.

They say "I'll be back" in the next edition.

Squad count is also a slight advantage for CSM termies...

3 groups of 3 nurgle termies are cheaper than 2 C:SM squads

that spreads out fire and leaves opponents prioritizing, also when templates miss, they are less likely to hit anyone in a group of 3

plus, other than using bonus troops, the rest of the elite troops leave a lot to be desired

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

herpguy wrote:
Terminators play the role of making everybody build their lists around fighting tons of 2+ saves when nobody actually fields them.

High volume small arms fire, AP1, and AP2 is not anti-terminator tailoring, it's stuff everyone should be taking. Why would you purposely make your army with low amount of guns, no AP1, and no AP2? That's stupid.

I'm just saying that every time somebody posts an army list there's always a few people who say "Well how are you going to deal with terminators???" Despite everybody claiming that 6th is the age of terminators, I have seen far less than in 5th.

Oh, and my fix for making termies relevant:

Units that deep strike may assault if they pass a leadership test and if the unit was not wounded or lost any hull points before the end of the movement phase. If that deep striking unit does assault, they will half the charge distance.

If you want to deep strike a unit of termies next to some pathfinders in a ruin and assault, you could:

33% chance on target
80% chance of passing leadership
95% chance of passing dangerous terrain
(Potential wounds lost due to sky fire)

Roughly 1/4 chance of dropping and assaulting, without casualties

karandras15 wrote:
Oh, and my fix for making termies relevant:

Units that deep strike may assault if they pass a leadership test and if the unit was not wounded or lost any hull points before the end of the movement phase. If that deep striking unit does assault, they will half the charge distance.

If you want to deep strike a unit of termies next to some pathfinders in a ruin and assault, you could:

33% chance on target
80% chance of passing leadership
95% chance of passing dangerous terrain
(Potential wounds lost due to sky fire)

Roughly 1/4 chance of dropping and assaulting, without casualties

meh, I think making them T5. give them +1 str when using anything but a powerfist. (works on THs) make their storm bolters assault 4. there, now we are getting somewhere. OH, let them take 1 HW + a CML. and give them the "option" to buy FnP

Man stacking abilities on these guys and soon they will be a unit of 5 chapter masters. Honestly just let the unit take 2 heavy weapons per 5 and make them 35 pts a piece and you would be more or less there.

It is not like they are entirely useless as is. They just need a nudge in survivability and a better alpha strike.

 ansacs wrote:
Man stacking abilities on these guys and soon they will be a unit of 5 chapter masters. Honestly just let the unit take 2 heavy weapons per 5 and make them 35 pts a piece and you would be more or less there.

It is not like they are entirely useless as is. They just need a nudge in survivability and a better alpha strike.

yep. keep the cost, make em T5. take 2 HW. and its done

When BT had double heavy weapons in a 5man tda squad, they were great. I ran a 5man tda command squad with 2x CMLs or AC and SS on the sgt which can move upfield or stay backfield, and be useful as a counter assault unit.

Now that we lost that, my terminators have been relegated to the display shelf, just waiting for that odd apocalypse game to join my crusade.

Heck just letting them take 2 HWs (forget +1T or W) per 5 would be enough to convince me to use them again. Drop pod a sternguard squad and iron clad first turn, use teleport homer to deep strike a squad with 2 ACs turn 2.

My two cents:

Either they:

1.) Kept their stats the same but give them either T5 or 2W, change stormbolter profile to being able to chose between assault 2/Heavy 4, and let them take 2 special weapons per 5 guys

2.) Keep stats and rules the same, make them 5-10 points cheaper.

personally I would prefer to see a buff, as it would get -just-that much closer to fluff accuracy