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They were pretty good before 6th edition. But then everything else dropped while termies stayed the same price. It's not their fault..

Plus tau and eldar are just mean vs space marines. That and wild packs of death marks with ap2 cryptek guys flying around in breakfast pastries.

Aside from that, terminators are pretty much what the marines are all about which is being swiss army knives. They're built for anything but don't really excel at anything in particular... Fun to field though.

 ansacs wrote:


I will however admit that termies are very overpriced. The two books they are best in are CSM and GK where they can be given better weapons; combi-X or be turned into paladins

and in SW where they cost and have the possibillities of the CSM but can lead your troops into battle

Terminators are meant to be played by sticking them in an assault vehicle (aka land raider) and roll up to the enemy then get out and charge. A squad of terminators at full strength on the charge will win most combats. That being said, people alway play them wrong and send them after the enemies close combat elite choice like other terminators and wonder why they can't win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Space wolves have the best terminators over all, end of story. Even though they cost a little more.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
They look really pretty on the shelf.

Lol.

They can have a role on the battle field. If you like small elite armies, Termies are a must have, like Draigo- or Deathwing. They can also be a nasty surprise for the enemy when deep striking.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
They look really pretty on the shelf.

Lol.

They can have a role on the battle field. If you like small elite armies, Termies are a must have, like Draigo- or Deathwing. They can also be a nasty surprise for the enemy when deep striking.

I don't feel that most terminators (SM, DA, BA, GK) are a nasty surprise when deepstriking. A group, usually 5 or so, comes down in a location, and shoots, what, four stormbolters and a cyclone missile launcher? Then gets destroyed the next turn by a unit or two's firepower? That's not a nasty surprise to me. I've faced Deathwing armies several times before, and their deepstriking, while more powerful than many other TDA variants thanks to the TL, still doesn't do nearly enough damage before my army wiped out their units.

The TDA armor guys you do see occasionally deep striking kind of coincidentally happen to be the same ones I talked about before -- Wolf Guard and CSM Terminators. Not coincidentally, both of these can take combi-weapons (particularly combi-meltas and combi-plasmas) in large quantities. Thus, on the turn you drop in either from teleportation or DP, you get a reasonable burst of firepower, followed up by a threat that wasn't too expensive for you to take. It's like ~35pts or so for a WG or CSM Terminator with a combi-weapon. That price is much closer to acceptable for the roles that you can use them in.

Draigowing works as a small elite army simply because you're not using normal terminators, you're using Paladins that have reasonable survivability and a higher concentration of firepower than most other TDA variants. Deathwing, in my experience, simply doesn't work as an army concept.

So far in 6th they have kept their role as the ones that wrech havoc upon the plans of my nefraious Xenoid foes

Terminators are still over costed unfortunately. They do not possess the resiliency to make them worth the expense, note Paladins do and are worth their price tag. 27.5pts per wound is fair with the risk of ID. Tracks with 2x the cost of a base marine for equal small arms resiliency and the better wargear selection, invuln save, etc balance out the other factors.

This is how I would fix Termiantors...

IMO Termiantors should be costed as follows...

Terminator with Powersword and Stormbolter... 30pts
Terminator with Powerfist and Stormbolter or Lightning Claws... 35pts
Terminator with Thunderhammer and Stormshield.... 40pts

Terminators would be a cost effective solution and would be fielded in increased regularity. The cheaper base Terminator would allow them to be fielded without bloating costs, same goes for the assault variety.

I'm still running a Ghostwing with 25-27 TDA at 1500pts, focused around delivering a GK Librarian w/ homer on turn 1, surviving until turn 2, followed by a full GKT squad on turn 2. I can hold my own versus most lists by playing smart, deploying right, and forcing the pace of the game. Although I haven't faced Gravy-Gun Bikers yet, I'm sure they can be tied up in CC with a DK or two.

SJ

The only terminators that work are the ones that are under 35 PPM (and draigowing, but that's another topic)

* CSM termies with power weapons
* Wolf Guard termies with power weapons
Notice a theme there? When your not paying for a power fist, the weapon the terminator becomes a bit more feasable.

What you are all saying pretty much goes with my experience. I just wanted to check and see if I was over looking something.

IMO to stick with the fluff they should make them have either a 2++ or a 2+ 3++ save. Then they could justify the price.

The relentless rule should also allow assaulting after a deepstrike only if they did not shoot during the shooting phase.

I also wouldn't mind access to better heavy weapons for them.

Making them cheaper just shows lack of imagination.

Bal4eva wrote:
What you are all saying pretty much goes with my experience. I just wanted to check and see if I was over looking something.

IMO to stick with the fluff they should make them have either a 2++ or a 2+ 3++ save. Then they could justify the price.

The relentless rule should also allow assaulting after a deepstrike only if they did not shoot during the shooting phase.

I also wouldn't mind access to better heavy weapons for them.

Making them cheaper just shows lack of imagination.

A 2++ invul wouldn't do a thing to stop them from being torrented to death and would require driving their price up even further. 2+ and a 4+ FnP would be better than any invul IMO, as it would mitigate both low AP fire somewhat and reduce the effectiveness of torrent fire.

Fire power wise, storm bolters need to be better...period. Salvo 2/4 with a 36" range, or assault 2/heavy 4 ala psycannons. Powerfists are also balls on them as well. IMO terminator powerfists should swing at I2 or more, so they are swinging before weak guys with fists or axes that will butcher them.

Making them cheaper is only one of a multitude of potential fixes for them. As the Horus Heresy books show, there are a ton of ways to make terminators cool AND effective.

again, I feel the best fix is make storm bolters 2/4 salvo. T5, 2+/5+ with a 5+/4+ FnP (at least give us the option to pay for it on term squads>.> ) and 2 HW. the only thing that your not paying more for is the T5. and the chance to have 4 shots per model.

I see Chaos Terminators doing pretty well overall when they're played. Khorne for the Icon of Wrath in a Land Raider, or Tzeentch, again usually best in a Land Raider.

SM Termies though can usually get the Hammer/Storm Shields right? Those are awesome, and super tough to kill. Even the powerfist ones don't need too many once in combat to ruin even a Daemon Prince's day.

Board presence/pressure, that's what Terminators are good for.

And you Tau Riptide blasty guys, can't do that on Overwatch!

 raiden wrote:
again, I feel the best fix is make storm bolters 2/4 salvo. T5, 2+/5+ with a 5+/4+ FnP (at least give us the option to pay for it on term squads>.> ) and 2 HW. the only thing that your not paying more for is the T5. and the chance to have 4 shots per model.

You have to be careful about double heavy weapons or else you end up with a squad of "2 heavy weapons plus their meat shield", like BT missile spam terminators were pre-6th edition marine codex, or a derivation of the current "max combi-weapon suicide chaos terminator boys".

The change to storm bolters would be sweet for terminators, sure, but it would be a COLOSSAL nerf to Grey Knights, so that's not going to happen.

T5 isn't an awful idea, but it makes terminator characters significantly tougher, as it's basically the same as pairing artificier armor and a bike in terms of staying power, and we know from the current uber captain builds that this is fairly tough, and this would make terminator armor for multi-wound characters extremely expensive (45+ points).

There's an answer that will work....but I haven't seen it listed here yet, that's for sure.

 Carnage43 wrote:

 raiden wrote:
again, I feel the best fix is make storm bolters 2/4 salvo. T5, 2+/5+ with a 5+/4+ FnP (at least give us the option to pay for it on term squads>.> ) and 2 HW. the only thing that your not paying more for is the T5. and the chance to have 4 shots per model.

You have to be careful about double heavy weapons or else you end up with a squad of "2 heavy weapons plus their meat shield", like BT missile spam terminators were pre-6th edition marine codex, or a derivation of the current "max combi-weapon suicide chaos terminator boys".

The change to storm bolters would be sweet for terminators, sure, but it would be a COLOSSAL nerf to Grey Knights, so that's not going to happen.

T5 isn't an awful idea, but it makes terminator characters significantly tougher, as it's basically the same as pairing artificier armor and a bike in terms of staying power, and we know from the current uber captain builds that this is fairly tough, and this would make terminator armor for multi-wound characters extremely expensive (45+ points).

There's an answer that will work....but I haven't seen it listed here yet, that's for sure.

heres the thing.. your paying MORE points for the HW, so let them take them. the idea is to make terms A LOT tougher. your paying that many pts for a model, it should be freakin tough
buff the grey knights to assault 4

Terminators are currently awful in the most recent loyalist books. Dark angels pay lots of extra points for special rules that come with downsides, like not being able to dwa with your entire force of terminators. Space marine terminators compete with centurions for shooting, who do have 2 wounds and t5, and cost about the same as a terminator with a heavy weapon, but their bolter is 3 to 6 twin linked shots as opposed to the 2 shot storm bolter.

Thss termies in a raider are about all that is worth taking, and that is only because of the 3++ save. The armor is rarely used on those termies as they don't have the volume to grind through units like orks and units like fire warriors probably won't wound anyway.

I run a Deathstar unit that does rather well for me. 5 man TDA, 4 SS/TH 1 LC; Sang. Priest in TDA; and either a reclusiarch or a Chappy, this guy is always in PA as he has a 4++ regardless. They ride in a LRC and when I unload them and assault they usually wreck face. If a challenge is issued I have 3 choices to accept with and I get to re-roll failed to hits on the first round. I am usually wounding on 3's for almost everything due to FC or 2's because of STR 9 Thunder hammers.

Well, Centurions are T5 with 2 wounds and no invul; they're 63 points per model. I think it's safe to say GW will not push terminators close to this as there will be little to differentiate the units. If you want T5 and 2 wounds; take centurions.

I agree with the survivability and dakka-per-point argument. 35 points a piece, and back to 2 HW per 5-man squad would do it.

That's for the vanilla variety anyway. Deathwing are probably doomed to be cooked on the competitive circuit forever lol (poor us). You can't cheapen them, because you have to differentiate them from loyalists somehow, but they're still terminators, so you can't drastically alter their rules with anything like S or T or W changes. Perhaps 40 points a piece (instead of current 44) with 2 HW per squad, split fire (always not just on deep strike, and not on LD) and their characteristic ability to mix in shields etc. That might do it if they keep DWA.

Still wouldn't be tops, but in the hands of a very skilled player, could be a finesse list.

TEQ arent bad. Termies are bad. Wraithguard etc are awesome

jakl277 wrote:
TEQ arent bad. Termies are bad. Wraithguard etc are awesome

One of the primary aspects of a "TeQ" is you know....terminator armor, a 2+ save. Wraithguard are 3+ save.

You could argue that wraithguard are the Eldar terminators, which I'd agree with, but wraithguard are in no way TeQ.

Wraithguard are viable where terminators aren't for several reasons. First off, T6 3+ save offers more protection to small arms than T4 2+ save does, somewhere in the area of a third less damage against bolter fire. Secondly, their gun is a badass up-gunned melta-gun. Thirdly, they are cheaper. Fourth, they have better transport options, as the Wave Serpents is a beast in 6th, and a Land Raider is a joke and a half. Fifth, Farseers and Spiritseers offer much much better support and buffs than anything the space marine codex can.

As a DW player, they just need more bodies and/or more staying power. I have to take the fortitude banner to stand a decent chance.

Honestly, a 4+ FnP that can't be ignored by ID, and not paying for powerfists, would make DW and terminators in general fit the fluff and be competitive.

I like a stock Chaos term with MoT and a power axe. Power swords just don't cut it anymore. This build has the 4++ save which is way better than 5++... It's a remarkable difference. Obviously you can't walk them up the table. It's all about tactical positioning and often they work best as a counter assault element. Chaos terms are cheap and have a whole lot more options... The lightning claw and power fist combo for +1 attack is there and really cheap for these upgrades. Sure it'd be quite nice if they were all T5 and had a twin linked heavy bolter that rends but that's never going to happen.

As a Nids and Eldar player whenever I see termies I just think easy game here. With my nids I tarpit them with fearless poisoned bodies and laugh... Unless the Doom removed them from the table. With Eldar I say 40+ point model meet my 32 point wraithguard or for slightly more meet my ap2 flamer on that nicely spaced DS termi footprint. Honestly termites can work in about 2 methods (as you all have been describing) the problem lies in the myriad methods of destruction that exist on them.

40k is a game of statistics and units like termies are flawed because they have nothing to prevent ~30 wounds from killing a 5 man unit. That's 2 wave serpents or a unit of guants or an ig blobsquad. Their problem is even with non ap2+ weapons is ~17% chance to kill them (basically their armor save). If you want them to work you need to get them in melee where they can be survivable. At range they are just as survivable as regular marines (assuming 10 man to 5 man termi squad that is about equal points) and deal the same damage (again 5 man 1 special vs 10 man). However in melee you have a drastic increase in damage and durability. All fists or power weapons will beat out a tac squads damage in melee easily. In melee only MCs and a select few models in an army have ap2. The only viable way to use termies (in my opinion) is to use a land raider and only have them on the table when they are in combat. If you pick the target well they can't be wounded through their save and crush the target. The problem is Xeno melee units have their number either through bodies to counter the points or initiative to kill them before retaliation. Melee is the safest place for them and aside from a LR impossible to achieve vs a competent opponent.

Because of all of this I will say they CAN work. If... and only if, you have a great general, the right list, a good target they can kill (most likely support units), and protection from shooting they can be great.

TLDR, They only function under a narrow focus and are countered by a myriad normal threats in the game. The person that can achieve success with them will find vastly more efficient units in the same codex for less points and/or more destructive potential. you can make them work but you would be better served using units like bikers w/ specials or poding marines to achieve similar damage with relative durability

Edit: epic fail Iphone once again......sry..... Termies work but statistics are working against them at all times in your game. they have less chance of damage, less chance of survivability, and less chance of destruction Vs EVERY other unit. Their biggest flaw is they are unable to mitigate the fact that one failed save is 20% of the bodies in most of their squads. Other armies can take losses eg: a marine squad loses a guy no problem, a cultist dies....who cares... a termi dies AWWWWWW S@$@ because for a one termi i literally have 8 cultists, guardsmen or termagants. Given this games point levels and relative compositions i will put my 40 guants vs your 5 termies (assuming stock) and laugh every time that they kill or distract your units the whole game.

I would entertain the idea of an extra attack, also 30, 35,40 pricing sounds about right for PW, PF / LC, TH/SS respectively.
+1 T +1 W and Buyable FnP and I will be gaking myself with happiness. I could care less about stormbolters, but assault 3 ap4 justifies their existence, no?

I still like the idea of giving armor rerolls against wound sources of sufficiently high AP.

Terminators really have no role anymore. They can't move fast, they can't reroll charge and they suffer from terrain. As far as assaults go they are dead.

Yes, they can kill stuff but generally you'll be dissapointed due to the above 3 problems. 3 tactical marines have more shots at 24" and 3x the shots at 12" for a similar price so just use those.

3 rounds of shooting > 3rd turn assault that will probably fail anyway.

Bal4eva wrote:
I have just gotten back into 40k. The last time I played was 2nd edition. Since then a lot has changed and I have tryed to find a way to use my terminators in an effective role and just can't find one. It seems to me like the weakness in there armor is just volume of shots (you have to roll a 1 sometime) so deepstriking them into a group of troops is a waste of time. They also lack any kind of real heavy weapon for tank busting. So deepstriking them next to a tank seems like a waste of time. And since they can't assault on the same turn as they deepstrike they are worthless in an assault role. I have tried with DW termies and recently got the new SM codex and started an Ultramarine army. I just can't seem to have a game where they last past the first turn or do much of anything but draw fire.

How are you using your termies and what success are you having?

Btw the two armies I play against most often are Tau and Eldar.

That's why. Both Tau and Eldar are practically designed for killing Terminators. The problem isn't with your skills, its with the Terminators. Assault Terminators still wreck in CC, but Tactical Terminators aren't really good at anything. Powerfists ensure that they'll strike last in combat and their Storm Bolters do nothing for them. Assault Cannons are only marginally useful, and if you're going to deep strike them I would recommend using one. The Cyclone missile launcher is great, but like the assault cannon can't be had in greater numbers unless you spend an ungodly amount of points for more terminators.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I'm still running a Ghostwing with 25-27 TDA at 1500pts, focused around delivering a GK Librarian w/ homer on turn 1, surviving until turn 2, followed by a full GKT squad on turn 2. I can hold my own versus most lists by playing smart, deploying right, and forcing the pace of the game. Although I haven't faced Gravy-Gun Bikers yet, I'm sure they can be tied up in CC with a DK or two.

SJ

I don't know about that. I run a white scars biker army with 27 bikes, and with scout in the first turn, I can get 48 grav shots off at these if need be. Probably wouldn't even need the combis, so say 36. That's 24 hits, and at 2+ that is 20 wounds. Even if you go first, you cant charge. And tying them up is all but impossible due to hit and run, unless you have something that lowers their I value. But maybe against say other marine bike lists without hit and run, that might work assuming you can get the charge without being shot first.

nah, that storm bolter is overpowered,
how about assault 2 at 24 inches and assault 3 at 12 inches

i use my terminators equipped with melta bombs and storm shields in a droppod as a distraction, while my grey hunters run towards the enemy (i never use rhinos). usually they live long enough to pop a tank in turn 2