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2013/11/18 19:04:08
Subject: Re:Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
paulson games wrote: It seems as though the blog page mysteriously disappeared... just like so many other bad press posts that have hit Defiance's facebook page and forums.
Fortunately a kindly gent on the Frothers forum saved it.
(all names are changed to protect the wicked parties).
2013/11/19 00:32:54
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
As entertaining as it might be I would just like to see them disappear and stop taking resources away from all the other amazing small miniature companies that have sprung up recently.
I would be more conflicted if they brought something amazing to the table, but just couldn't get the business side of things together...but they offer nothing. Barely average poorly cast models, horrible realisations of decent concept art.
We have so many companies doing everything that Defiance wish they were doing.
2013/11/19 04:31:30
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
Agreed on that, plastictrees... I'm just surprised that they continue to be able to get people to give them money on credit! I could understand ordering one of their items through a distributor, if someone really wanted it... but to kickstart them just seems crazy, given their track record.
2013/11/19 04:42:21
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
plastictrees wrote: As entertaining as it might be I would just like to see them disappear and stop taking resources away from all the other amazing small miniature companies that have sprung up recently.
I would be more conflicted if they brought something amazing to the table, but just couldn't get the business side of things together...but they offer nothing. Barely average poorly cast models, horrible realisations of decent concept art.
We have so many companies doing everything that Defiance wish they were doing.
I don't agree completely. I am a big fan of their "good plastic" UAMC minis and I haven't seen anyone else release a similar product yet. However, as soon as WGF does come out with near-future troops, I'll be right on board with you.
Everything else, though... well, who else is making some nice bugs?
Just got pointed this way, since I heard of Darred's blog posting via one of the fictionally-named people in the story.
From contact with the people involved over the past weeks, that's the way I'd understood it as well.
I'd been involved in Wargames Factory when Tony ran it and – since he's a very likeable, plausible person and had (mostly) paid me for my work, I defended him at the time the smash-up happened with the Hong Kong-based supplier/partner. The fact that the new owner didn't pay my back wages really influenced my decision, without my realizing some of the things Tony had done to contribute to the failed partnership. Serious things, as it later turned out.
So when Tony started Defiance I was happy to write a set of rules, run demos and do some forum moderating. But it became clear that Tony was repeating all the errors that he'd blamed on the Chinese end of the business, and that his casual financial approach seemed irresponsible. So in mid 2012 I stepped away – I wasn't getting paid, investors I knew personally told me they weren't getting repaid – and I took my toys home quietly. I didn't say anything. A friend and I started a new, small company to publish rules.
In the last couple of months I've been in contact with the production team mentioned in Darred's blog – all people I believe to be good folks with the best of intentions – in order to provide contacts with some suppliers who told me by phone that they were owed considerable sums of money from many months before. Aside from confirming the wisdom of my stepping away from DG, this also indicated to the team the actual state of finances. As Darred said, their efforts to find a way of continuing to operate DG have been undermined by the founder of the company. They offered to stay and see the Kickstarter through, but are no longer willing to do so.
I'd left my Beta version of the set of Sci Fi rules (which seem to be well liked) on the DG site, but I've asked for them to be taken down. I'll revise them and offer them again under a different name at another time.
That's about it, to the best of my knowledge – Howard
Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com
2013/11/19 21:27:37
Subject: Re:Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
I've got a ton of Tyranids. I pledged in Trollforge's KS and in Total Extinction. I'm also looking forward to more Shadowkesh.
I'll wait for the cheaper AVP plastics. Starship Troopers had plastic bugs? I would like to know more.
Excalibur looks like 15mm stuff, otherwise (judging from their photos) is an extremely ironic recommendation from someone who thinks that Hudson's Bugs look like toys. They may not cast up well, but the designs were unique.
I'm looking more for Not-Shadows instead of Not-Giger-Aliens. Do you have any suggestions to fit that aesthetic?
Just got pointed this way, since I heard of Darred's blog posting via one of the fictionally-named people in the story.
From contact with the people involved over the past weeks, that's the way I'd understood it as well.
I'd been involved in Wargames Factory when Tony ran it and – since he's a very likeable, plausible person and had (mostly) paid me for my work, I defended him at the time the smash-up happened with the Hong Kong-based supplier/partner. The fact that the new owner didn't pay my back wages really influenced my decision, without my realizing some of the things Tony had done to contribute to the failed partnership. Serious things, as it later turned out.
So when Tony started Defiance I was happy to write a set of rules, run demos and do some forum moderating. But it became clear that Tony was repeating all the errors that he'd blamed on the Chinese end of the business, and that his casual financial approach seemed irresponsible. So in mid 2012 I stepped away – I wasn't getting paid, investors I knew personally told me they weren't getting repaid – and I took my toys home quietly. I didn't say anything. A friend and I started a new, small company to publish rules.
In the last couple of months I've been in contact with the production team mentioned in Darred's blog – all people I believe to be good folks with the best of intentions – in order to provide contacts with some suppliers who told me by phone that they were owed considerable sums of money from many months before. Aside from confirming the wisdom of my stepping away from DG, this also indicated to the team the actual state of finances. As Darred said, their efforts to find a way of continuing to operate DG have been undermined by the founder of the company. They offered to stay and see the Kickstarter through, but are no longer willing to do so.
I'd left my Beta version of the set of Sci Fi rules (which seem to be well liked) on the DG site, but I've asked for them to be taken down. I'll revise them and offer them again under a different name at another time.
That's about it, to the best of my knowledge – Howard
ummmmm....wow. Nimrod Tony can't even keep a rules writer who defended him.... I'm sure it's completely someone else's fault; I mean, he's in meetings all day, how can he run the company?
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2013/11/20 03:44:26
Subject: Re:Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I am a big fan of their "good plastic" UAMC minis and I haven't seen anyone else release a similar product yet. However, as soon as WGF does come out with near-future troops, I'll be right on board with you.
In my opinion, this is the real mystery DG. Their first product was not perfect, but it was a solid all-plastic offering that was better than the sci-fi troopers that the Wargames Factory (where DG's crew came from) was making. This really made some waves and folks were really looking forward to what was next. I don't know, and perhaps someone can tell me whether DG ...didn't make enough $ on the UAMC marines,
or
lost thier plastic supplier,
or
was tempted to a cheaper material
or
what...
but they proceeded to relase 4 spin-cast products. Each of lower quality than the UAMC marines. Each with major issues (bugs) Scale and sculpting issues (Germans), Unavaialability (JRAB), Major casting issues (Chineese). They did make some one-piece worms, that didn't seem to have any major issues, but their attempts at making mulitpart minis post UAMC have all fallen flat.
Makes one wonder why they couldn't have just taken their time and released 1 or two high quality plastic kits rather than a string of spin-plas failures.
Just got pointed this way, since I heard of Darred's blog posting via one of the fictionally-named people in the story.
From contact with the people involved over the past weeks, that's the way I'd understood it as well.
I'd been involved in Wargames Factory when Tony ran it and – since he's a very likeable, plausible person and had (mostly) paid me for my work, I defended him at the time the smash-up happened with the Hong Kong-based supplier/partner. The fact that the new owner didn't pay my back wages really influenced my decision, without my realizing some of the things Tony had done to contribute to the failed partnership. Serious things, as it later turned out.
So when Tony started Defiance I was happy to write a set of rules, run demos and do some forum moderating. But it became clear that Tony was repeating all the errors that he'd blamed on the Chinese end of the business, and that his casual financial approach seemed irresponsible. So in mid 2012 I stepped away – I wasn't getting paid, investors I knew personally told me they weren't getting repaid – and I took my toys home quietly. I didn't say anything. A friend and I started a new, small company to publish rules.
In the last couple of months I've been in contact with the production team mentioned in Darred's blog – all people I believe to be good folks with the best of intentions – in order to provide contacts with some suppliers who told me by phone that they were owed considerable sums of money from many months before. Aside from confirming the wisdom of my stepping away from DG, this also indicated to the team the actual state of finances. As Darred said, their efforts to find a way of continuing to operate DG have been undermined by the founder of the company. They offered to stay and see the Kickstarter through, but are no longer willing to do so.
I'd left my Beta version of the set of Sci Fi rules (which seem to be well liked) on the DG site, but I've asked for them to be taken down. I'll revise them and offer them again under a different name at another time.
That's about it, to the best of my knowledge – Howard
That's huge news. Howard was Tony's biggest appologist and now even now he's out and spilling the beans.
The lose of the marines and decent plastics was due to their split with wargames factory. Ie Tony mismanaging Wargames factory to the point it was taken over due to debt. After the take over they relaunched as Defiance.
You'll note that Wargames Factory has continued on just fine without Tony (or other employees) that regrouped as Defiance. Wargames factory is putting out some really impressive stuff. They've been working with Dreamforge and they also do the plastics for Malifaux. Mantic also has some nice sci fi plastics coming out very shortly.
The lack in quality on Defiance's end is likely due to them having an unclear vision and burning their bridges with quality production companies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/20 20:55:09
Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com
2013/11/20 21:59:15
Subject: Re:Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
NoseGoblin wrote: I was hoping that the company was turning over a new leaf but with all the recent news it seems that is not a possibility.
As a result I requested and was given a full refund.
From Defiance?
How did you get ahold of them? They never got back to me on any of my queries...
Thanks, Jehan-reznor. I'll put it on my lookout list for Black Friday.
I contacted them and never received a reply. I then opened a ticket with Amazon Payments. I would imagine they still have some leeway in deciding that they will or will not give refunds so I am assuming they (Defiance) decided that they would approve the refund.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I am a big fan of their "good plastic" UAMC minis and I haven't seen anyone else release a similar product yet. However, as soon as WGF does come out with near-future troops, I'll be right on board with you.
In my opinion, this is the real mystery DG. Their first product was not perfect, but it was a solid all-plastic offering that was better than the sci-fi troopers that the Wargames Factory (where DG's crew came from) was making. This really made some waves and folks were really looking forward to what was next. I don't know, and perhaps someone can tell me whether DG ...didn't make enough $ on the UAMC marines,
or
lost thier plastic supplier,
or
was tempted to a cheaper material
or
what...
but they proceeded to relase 4 spin-cast products. Each of lower quality than the UAMC marines. Each with major issues (bugs) Scale and sculpting issues (Germans), Unavaialability (JRAB), Major casting issues (Chineese). They did make some one-piece worms, that didn't seem to have any major issues, but their attempts at making mulitpart minis post UAMC have all fallen flat.
Makes one wonder why they couldn't have just taken their time and released 1 or two high quality plastic kits rather than a string of spin-plas failures.
Just got pointed this way, since I heard of Darred's blog posting via one of the fictionally-named people in the story.
From contact with the people involved over the past weeks, that's the way I'd understood it as well.
I'd been involved in Wargames Factory when Tony ran it and – since he's a very likeable, plausible person and had (mostly) paid me for my work, I defended him at the time the smash-up happened with the Hong Kong-based supplier/partner. The fact that the new owner didn't pay my back wages really influenced my decision, without my realizing some of the things Tony had done to contribute to the failed partnership. Serious things, as it later turned out.
So when Tony started Defiance I was happy to write a set of rules, run demos and do some forum moderating. But it became clear that Tony was repeating all the errors that he'd blamed on the Chinese end of the business, and that his casual financial approach seemed irresponsible. So in mid 2012 I stepped away – I wasn't getting paid, investors I knew personally told me they weren't getting repaid – and I took my toys home quietly. I didn't say anything. A friend and I started a new, small company to publish rules.
In the last couple of months I've been in contact with the production team mentioned in Darred's blog – all people I believe to be good folks with the best of intentions – in order to provide contacts with some suppliers who told me by phone that they were owed considerable sums of money from many months before. Aside from confirming the wisdom of my stepping away from DG, this also indicated to the team the actual state of finances. As Darred said, their efforts to find a way of continuing to operate DG have been undermined by the founder of the company. They offered to stay and see the Kickstarter through, but are no longer willing to do so.
I'd left my Beta version of the set of Sci Fi rules (which seem to be well liked) on the DG site, but I've asked for them to be taken down. I'll revise them and offer them again under a different name at another time.
That's about it, to the best of my knowledge – Howard
That's huge news. Howard was Tony's biggest appologist and now even now he's out and spilling the beans.
Hard tooling is expensive... You need to sell about 3000 units or so (depending on your price point) just to make back the initial investment. The decision to move to spincast as a financially viable option if you are concerned about the up front costs or the ability to pay for the tooling with a short run.
Considering most minis only sell about 1000 units (according to a very knowledgably spincaster) it is a bit of a gamble.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/20 22:05:57
Any resemblance of this post to written English is purely coincidental.
2013/11/20 22:08:17
Subject: Re:Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
paulson games wrote: The lose of the marines and decent plastics was due to their split with wargames factory. Ie Tony mismanaging Wargames factory to the point it was taken over due to debt. After the take over they relaunched as Defiance.
You'll note that Wargames Factory has continued on just fine without Tony (or other employees) that regrouped as Defiance. Wargames factory is putting out some really impressive stuff. They've been working with Dreamforge and they also do the plastics for Malifaux. Mantic also has some nice sci fi plastics coming out very shortly.
The lack in quality on Defiance's end is likely due to them having an unclear vision and burning their bridges with quality production companies.
WGF has gone from strength to strength. We will see how they look in a year after this period of rapid growth of course, but they are doing some impressive work at the moment.
The lack of quality from Defiance seems to have everything to do with cost cutting. They could have had Ed at Trollforged cast for them, or assist with casting at least, but they chose to do a sloppy job of it themselves.
I assume that they are constantly about three steps behind their income, paying late for work/product with money that came in for completely different work/product. We just get to see that up close now.
kenofyork wrote: I got a check today for the products I sent to Defiance. I want to make sure to report the facts as far as I know. Take it for what it is worth and let's not try to read things in to it, but someone at the company has settled up with me. Defiance has gotten some bad press because of the non-payment to me. They have corrected the issue and I wanted to let it be known that all accounts are paid up.
rustforge wrote: Defiance has also paid us in full as well. We have been withholding comment, per our attorneys advice, until Ken had been paid as well. Ken advised me earlier today that he had been paid and I was waiting for him to say something before I posted.
Just quoting these two posts over so we can discuss the relevant info.
Jake, I am just giving them credit for finally paying their debt. That is a positive thing, and means there is a glimmer of hope for them for the future if they continue to make good on their obligations (such as to the Kickstarter backers now).
I certainly hope both of your cheques clear. It's certainly a good thing to hear this news so far, anyway.
Several people have asked about the events that happened that caused Rust Forge to seek legal assistance in order to secure payment from Defiance Games. Below is a timeline of events that should answer everyone’s questions.
Days 1 - 14 We contacted Defiance to inquire about a product trade for advertising purposes. We had been searching for some 28mm hard sci-fi miniatures to use for display and advertising to help show our products scale and we thought that the DG marines might fit the bill. Initially we sought to trade them some cargo containers they could use in a similar fashion for their promotional materials. DG countered that they would actually like to carry the product as part of their Alien Suns line. After discussion, it was decided to go ahead with this plan. Their order was placed and shipped with a NET10 payment schedule.
Days 15 - 45 A second smaller order was placed this time with a net 30 pay schedule before the initial net 10 became due. When the initial net 10 came due DG stated that the initial NET10 payment wasn't possible for them to make and asked for a NET 30 on the original order citing waiting on distributor payments. As having to wait for a distributor to send payment on their own net 30, net 60, or sometimes longer schedule is not uncommon we agreed with this time frame. After the 30 days had gone by with no payment, DG stated that due to some production issues, they had not received the money that they were expected and were going to be further delayed with payment. We weren't happy, but we accepted this reason. Everyone has unexpected issues that crop up from time to time.
Days 46 - 90(ish) DG continued to be in regular communication throughout this time. They continued asserting that the production issues were causing the delays and as soon as they were paid we would be paid. They also stated that the were having discussions with possible investors that would speed up the payment timing issues. During the end of this timeframe, we began discussing possible legal actions with our attorney. We decided to hold off for a bit more time because we still felt that we weren't be lied to and that DG were just having a rough time.
Days 91(ish) - 120(ish) DG launched their kickstarter and announced the management change. We learned of the change when everyone else did via 3rd party sources. We had no prior notice of this before the first public notice on FB and the DG website. We immediately contacted the "new" management who continued with the same story of delay issues, BUT started to give us time frames of when we would get paid. These time frames came and went several times with no payment or likelihood of one. At time we began to witness a serious level of blame being thrown between the old and new management. Each claiming the other was responsible for the debts of the business, controlled access to funds for making payments, and whose responsibility it was to satisfy the debts. At this time we told the attorney to send the intent of lawsuit paperwork. Immediately after talking to our attorney, DG announced that the "new" management is no longer the management at all.
Days 121(ish - 135 Our attorney sends the intent of lawsuit paperwork to both Tony and Gary (old and new management). Gary immediately replies that he is no longer management and that he never was actually in charge and that this is Tony's issue. Tony replies that a check will be sent out shortly. Almost one week later we received a check, for full payment owed, by Tony. That check was cashed and had since cleared in full.
As of today we have had several discussions since this all started and we have determined that for the time being, DG is in too much turmoil to continue to do business with. It is just not a good idea considering all the new information that has come to light the past few weeks to continue to be associated with DG. Tony is a very likable individual. He is very pleasant to talk to and has many high hopes and ideas for his company. We hope that he can get things together so they can be brought to reality.
I hope that clears everything up with people. We do not hold any ill will towards anyone involved. Everything was finally resolved and in full. We are moving forward and we hope that all other parties are able to so as well.
Wales: Where the Men are Men and the sheep are Scared.
Sounds like they wouldn't have paid if they thought they could get away with it. Honest I don't think I would ever trust any of my money to defiance games.
2013/11/22 03:03:11
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
Days 121(ish - 135 Our attorney sends the intent of lawsuit paperwork to both Tony and Gary (old and new management). Gary immediately replies that he is no longer management and that he never was actually in charge and that this is Tony's issue.
Interesting as that doesn't match Defiance's earlier claim, which looks to be a deliberate lie to KS backers.
From their forum & KS updates:
ATTN: Defiance Games is under new management 19 Sep 2013 12:00 #1
Gary Pelletier
Defiance Games is under new leadership. Gary Pelletier- who has been handling customer service and production issues for the past year - is taking over as CEO effective immediately. The new team at DFG consists of Max Martelli as Art Director, Darred Surin as Office Manager and Mark Loud as Production Manager.
-Snip-
- Gary Pelletier
Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com
2013/11/23 17:45:02
Subject: Re:Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
paulson games wrote: Interesting as that doesn't match Defiance's earlier claim, which looks to be a deliberate lie to KS backers.
How dare you accuse a group of liars of lying! Pistols at dawn sirrah!
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2013/11/23 18:10:33
Subject: Re:Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
Days 121(ish - 135 Our attorney sends the intent of lawsuit paperwork to both Tony and Gary (old and new management). Gary immediately replies that he is no longer management and that he never was actually in charge and that this is Tony's issue.
Interesting as that doesn't match Defiance's earlier claim, which looks to be a deliberate lie to KS backers.
From their forum & KS updates:
ATTN: Defiance Games is under new management 19 Sep 2013 12:00 #1
Gary Pelletier
Defiance Games is under new leadership. Gary Pelletier- who has been handling customer service and production issues for the past year - is taking over as CEO effective immediately. The new team at DFG consists of Max Martelli as Art Director, Darred Surin as Office Manager and Mark Loud as Production Manager.
-Snip-
- Gary Pelletier
And that bring up the question how dumb is Gary Pelletier.... "So Gary your looking to join are family and Game&Thing. Wait, you wouldn't be the Gary Pelletier that helped Tony cheat people out of the money. By lying about taking over Defiance while Tony was really in charge. Sorry we pass, good luck at you next interview maybe they won't do a check on there furtue employees."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/23 18:11:20
Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.
(Wave 1 of the kickstarter has finally been cast and will be shipping soon) and Prodos Games AvP!
