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Alright, so I have read on quite a few forums that people think giving your IG vets grenade launchers is a bad choice. People say that doing so is waisting their BS of 4 and their extra points. The same argument is used against flamers.

Alright, so here are the stats:
5pts Grenade Launcher. 24"
-Krak: Str 6 Ap4 Assault 1
-Frag: Str 3 Ap6 Assault 1 Blast
5 pts Flamer: Template Str 4 Ap5 Assault 1
20 pts Heavy Flamer: Template Str 5 Ap4 Assault 1

Infantry: 50pts for 10, BS3
Vets: 70 pts for 10, BS4 (gets additional weapons and perks)

I personally think grenade launchers are a great choice. My reason is because taking 3 grenade launchers turns 3 BS4 Str3 Ap- shots into 3 BS4 Str6 Ap4 shots when using krak for only 15 pts. This allows the vets to be a much bigger threat at the same ranges. Not only this, but if you are facing horde, you can use a frag and get 3 small blast str 3 ap6 shots, which is pretty damn good, since each is similar to a lasgun, but it gets ap6 and a blast. I know vets really don't get much of an advantage when using the small blast over an infantry squad, but its still good.

As for the flamers, vets don't really get any bonus compared to infantry squads. However, vets can take a heavy flamers! Yes it costs 20 points (an addition 15 points to the flamer) but it allows the vets to Save4+ and with most things will wound more likely.

I really dont see why people bad mouth the grenade launcher on vets. I kind of see why people bad mouth the flamer on vets, especially since they only get an upgrade from str4 ap5 to str5 ap4 and it costs 15 points.

What do you guys think? I've never used guard and am getting a good bunch in the mail soon so I want to get some ideas flowing.

The grenade launcher is poor compared to the other choices. Even in a good situation where you catch 3 Marines under the small blast all 3 times, you get 9 hits, 3 wounds, 1 failed save. And that is in an ideal situation. The same veterans carrying plasma get 6 shots, 4 hits, ~3.32 dead marines and dispersion doesn't matter. Plasma also does better against vehicles because it is S7 and AP2.

It really depends on your local meta. A lot of people view things in terms of a meta comprised of Marine Equivalent (MEQ) units, and naturally in this environment you would be better off with one Plasma Gun compared to 3 Grenade Launchers. But in a meta with far less MEQ and more guard/tyranid equivalents, you may be better off? Let us know about your meta and we can help better.

 motyak wrote:
It really depends on your local meta. A lot of people view things in terms of a meta comprised of Marine Equivalent (MEQ) units, and naturally in this environment you would be better off with one Plasma Gun compared to 3 Grenade Launchers. But in a meta with far less MEQ and more guard/tyranid equivalents, you may be better off? Let us know about your meta and we can help better.

My meta is so large that there really isn't any army that you won't see on 40k game day. I see about 1/4 marines 1/4 guard 1/4 ork 1/8 tau, and the rest is mixed.

There is a reason grenade launchers are 5 points. The more expensive options, melta and plasma are better choices for the BS4 that veterans have. As far as the flamer, once again a waste of the better BS. A vet with a flamer hits as many models as a regular infantry with a flamer.

 Ryan_A wrote:
My reason is because taking 3 grenade launchers turns 3 BS4 Str3 Ap- shots into 3 BS4 Str6 Ap4 shots when using krak for only 15 pts

Or you could turn those STR 3 AP - shots into STR 8 AP 1 shots or STR 7 AP 2 shots. Cost is not a factor because you need to account for carrier cost. A squad with GLs costs 140 points (don't forget the Chimera), a squad with melta costs 155 points. So for a small percentage increase in points you get a massive improvement in firepower.

This allows the vets to be a much bigger threat at the same ranges.

Range doesn't matter much. You have Chimeras and Vendettas to deliver vets, and you're better off doing significant damage at 12" than pathetic damage at 24". Or you could take plasma and do significant damage at 24" as well.

Not only this, but if you are facing horde, you can use a frag and get 3 small blast str 3 ap6 shots, which is pretty damn good, since each is similar to a lasgun, but it gets ap6 and a blast.

Sorry, but blast lasguns are a joke. You only hit one model per shot because the template diameter is less than the 2" distance between models, and the stats are horrible. Even against hordes the krak shots probably do more damage most of the time.

And of course melta/plasma do more damage than either.

As for the flamers, vets don't really get any bonus compared to infantry squads. However, vets can take a heavy flamers! Yes it costs 20 points (an addition 15 points to the flamer) but it allows the vets to Save4+ and with most things will wound more likely.

20 points for a heavy flamer is a joke when every tank in your army gets one for free. And putting flamers on vets is a joke when you can get a 4x flamer PCS for so cheap and not waste extra points on BS 4.

I really dont see why people bad mouth the grenade launcher on vets.

Because GLs aren't effective against any type of target. They suck against elite infantry, they suck against hordes, they suck against vehicles, and they suck against MCs. The only "good" thing about them is that they're cheap, and if you want cheap infantry squads you buy platoons, not vets.

Really good points peregrine, thanks for opening my eyes!

Grenade launchers do not suck. They just aren't particularly good at most.

While I agree that GLs don't belong in vet squads, I do have high success in their use in HB/AC blobs(I only put plasma in my lascannon blobs because I played marines in 3rd edition) in a gunline set-up.

If my opponent is spreading his unit to full 2" because of my GLs... first off he is a fool, its a blast lasgun for crissakes; second, good that means he will not have as many models making it into initial assault or he will have to make a disordered charge on my 2 near units(so no bonus attacks).

I like GLs greatly actually, just not on Vets.

Like the Kommissar with dem "s"s I like em in my infantry squads.

The meltaguns and plasmaguns are a lot nicer options in veteran squads. You may ask, "Why not str6 gun for 1/3 the price DaK?". Well I say to you that if you are gonna be hitting accurately anyways, might as well have a good gun in your hand, right?

The grenade launcher is cheap enough in that it is not "that much" of a waste if you miss. Also, having them en masse in a bunch of infantry squads spells doom for MCs on top of all the lasgun fire that chews into them.

Flamers, you might as well have a infantry squad. All the vets got going for them is having 3 instead of 1. This can be nice, but usually the points you spare in vets go toward chimeras or the like which have Anti-Personnel options aplenty.

I find that the expensive stuff should be in the hand of the skillful. Afterall, you only let your 6 year old brother toy around with your Macragge painting-test subject Marine. NOT your custom terminator squad.

I think peregrine pretty much covered it. Many of these weapon questions come down to the upgrade cost of the carrier unit rather than the upgrade in a vacuum. Point in case is the GL vs the PG where 3 S6 vs 1 S7 sounds good until you consider the carrier cost.

GL are not so bad in infantry squads where you aren't expecting them to actually accomplish much anyways. I would never cut something actually important for it's points in GLs though.

BTW taking 3x flamers in your vets is not terrible when you are not taking any platoons. 3 flamers is still a good way to clear an objective late game no matter what they are on.

GL and flamers are good weapons, but you also want to mix in Melta and plasma which cost more points. Since melta and plasma cost the same on bs3 units may as well give the more expensive special weapons to theBS4 vets. Plasma gets real expensive real fast. 6 Guns will run 90 points and 1/6 will get hot per turn. Vets offer 4 hits per get hot instead of 3. If you have a mix of vets and platoon save the plasma for the vets.

Platoon squad with ac and gl/flamer is solid

PCS with 4 flamers or gl in a chimera is good.

SWS with 3 gl is very inexpensive.

I cant see where all this hate hate comes from for flamer vets. I always kit out one of my vet squads with 3x flamers a demo charge and the rest of the men with shotguns. I stick them in a valkyrie and fly it into the back field of the enemy for scoring units in cover jump out and unleash hell. Any tanks near by meltabombs all around next turn.
3x flamers onto one squad can do a serious amount of wounds plus the demo charge and shotguns on top.
This has cleared quite a few units off objectives for me and I think its a great little annoying unit for 115pt (plus the transport).

flamer vets with demolitions jumping out of a vendetta will clear a lot of things off objectives, I pretty much killed an enitre termie squad off the board, Typhus had to many wounds to bring him down. The squad also almost killed an entire farsight bomb. It dropped down and killed 2 and immobilized another. Then my vendetta came on and dropped the vets off and they killed everyone but farsight. To be honest though I always hate how close my melta vets have to get just to hurt something, so I dont believe I would ever put flamer vets in a chimera, I feel like my oppoonent would just nock that right out if it was going to make any big impact.

I do like the idea of a cheap platoon with autocannons and grenade launchers.

The dislike comes from getting the same thing at about half the cost from PCS. If you take a platoon the vendetta fireball can be a 3x flamer for 85 pts or a 4x flamer for 50 pts...

 ansacs wrote:
The dislike comes from getting the same thing at about half the cost from PCS. If you take a platoon the vendetta fireball can be a 3x flamer for 85 pts or a 4x flamer for 50 pts...

Hmm, thats a great idea! Thanks for pointing that out to me, that'd be fun!

I just want to drive home Peregrine's post...

There are only 2 redeeming qualities for Grenade Launchers... the range and Assault. If it wasn't on such a crappy platform or had the same stats as a Missile Launcher (which is also a dog for IG), it might be worth it. Heck, if it had just +1 Str to Frag and Krak, leaving the APs were they are at, it would be a winner and give a decent alternative to Plasma and Melta. But it doesn't and that is what kills it.

Lets take that Vet squad for example. Your paying /a lot/ of points for BS 4 and those 3 special weapon slots, don't waste them. But alas, your running out of points so GLs it is. Any special weapon is better than no special weapon, and the biggest crime a IG player can make is leaving empty special weapon slots. So your sitting there fighting a marine army... doesn't matter which army, there are 6 codexes out there. You see a squad of 5 Marines on foot, in the open, and two of them are pretty close to each other where you think you can get 2 a frag and then possibly rack up 6 wounds on the unit to wipe it out!

So you shoot... and the first thing about frags now comes into play... your BS 4 means nothing, or next to nothing because your rolling the scatter dice to hit (33% chance to roll a hit). When you do scatter... and you will, your average dice roll is 7". You subtract the 4" from your BS and your still 3" away, then another 1" from the center of the template to it's edge... so on a average roll your 2" from your intended target. Maybe you hit something, maybe you don't. That is the joy of Scatter. But, on average one frag is hitting and we will be nice and say one scattered back to hit a guy for 3 hits. Now for the second suck part of frag... str 3. You need to roll 5+ to wound, so /another/ 33% chance, this time to wound. Again, we will say you buck the odds (man, your a trooper!) and you get 2 wounds! Now for the finial suck of frag... they get their 3+ armor save. They have a 66% chance to save against your shot, and your luck will probably run out here.

Now, lets take Krak for a spin in the above situation. You know the Frag isn't going to do much so you feel you want to go for the 'for sure' thing. Roll to hit and you have a 66% chance to hit at 3+, good odds I must say! But odds are 1 of those shots are going to miss, so 2 hits. Now rolling to wound and again, this weapon isn't looking to bad with that Str 6 and you need 2+ to wound! Let's say both wound. Now the suck comes into play... oh darn, Krak is only AP 4? They get their full 3+ armor save? Yeah, they will probably make it. Your best shot with this weapon, against the most common target you will face, as well as the bar of 40k, has a very, very, poor chance of killing a single marine. Then throw in stuff like Feel No Pain, better armor, or higher Toughness (say bikes), and your not doing anything.

Then you look at other foes, say Orks or even other IG who don't get a armor save against Krak, and your killing 2-3 guys a volley. But those lists normally have /a lot/ of guys in them.

Now, flamers. Flamers are good weapons, for sure. They auto-hit anything under the template. But your paying a ton of points for a Vet squad, to effectively throw away the reason why your paying all of those points... the BS 4. A Platoon Command Squad, which you now /have/ to take two Platoon Infantry squads (well, 2-5 per platoon) to field, is only 30pts and has 4 special weapon slots and a BS 3. If you really wanted more, now that you have a Platoon, your allowed to take 0-2 Special Weapons Squads. These handy little squads are 35pt BS 3 zingers that also have 3 special weapon slots and a low Leadership (so they can't stand up to taking a lot of fire before running). But for 150pts (not counting the 2-5 Platoon Infantry Squads), you have 3 units that are awesome for Vendettas/Valkyries, are all troops for objective purposes, and have 10 flamers between them that don't care about actually rolling to hit. The two Platoon Infantry Squads, with a AC and a Plasma each hanging back in cover are 75pts each, so you could have a whole platoon, 35 figs (counting heavy weapons as one fig), and a single Troop selection for your Force Org chart, for 300pts. Two ACs, 2 plasma guns, and 10 flamers, 300pts!

Flamers are great, just use them on the proper troops (BS 3 troops). Grenade Launchers suck because you can't kill the guys you want to kill with them. The ones you can kill, you can't kill enough of them because they are probably a large group.

And before you ask about Missile Launchers (Grenade launcher's Big Brother), look at the point value compared to a AC and a Lascannon. See that the AC is Str 7 with /TWO/ shots, see that the LC is Str 9 with AP 2. See my lesson on scatter dice with the frag above. Remember you can not snap fire blast markers and can only snap fire Krak if you move. Do simple math and see that krak can only glance AV 14, so your never really going to fire Missile Launchers at heavy armor and just fire it on Transports and troops. Then look again at the AC, for cheaper, with more shots, and that it is better at killing transports (because of the two shots) and math-hammer wise it will kill more infantry than a frag shot, if the frag shot even hits. Lascannons for heavy armor, ACs for everything else.

Your welcome.