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Maybe there already exist some past suggestions about the shotgun, but i find a weapon with great potential, wasted just being a bolt pistol with a extra shoot and without ap, so i propose a new perfil
Range S AP Type
Heavy Shootgun 12" 5 - Assault 2 / concussive

With that, just with that, you could give this weapon to the assault squad, or maybe to the veteran squad, i dont now, what the community think, waiting some feedback.

greeting from méxico

Mind you, S4 is already very powerful - to the point when it is capable of damaging light armoured vehicles and tearing apart civilian cars in one shot.

And about concussive. Strikedown would fit better, closer to the fluff and more useful, considering AP-, but as it is more powerful it should increase the price of the shotguns.

how about
STR 5
Salvo 2/3 or assault 2 not sure which is better
+1 to hit rolls (scouts would need a 3, marines 2)
concussive
range 18''
and cost points to get as well I suppose.

A shotgun, for the most part, is not a rapid-fire weapon.

A shotgun, for the most part, does not do as much damage as a machinegun, let alone a minigrenade.

A shotgun, really, should be S3, Shred for buckshot, or S4 AP5 for firing a hi-ex solid slug. IE: a bolter round.

Salvo is a terible idea, as it prevent unit from charging.

18" is not justified at all for a shotgun.

S5 too - it fires buckshot, not a plasma or 100-caliber explosive missiles.

If I would be one to decide, shotguns would be:
Range 12 S 4 AP - Assault 2, Srtrikedown, Spray
Spray: Shotguns have +1 BS and AP5 against targets within half their range (6")

Pretty much. There is no way the shotgun (19.5mm low velocity weapon) is as potent as the Bolter (20mm automatic rocket launcher with explosive munitions). Making them even St 4 for the Marines is a stretch, let alone the other stuff.

I might give Buckshot either Twin Linked or Shred to represent its effects and a solid slug AP 6, but really, the Assault 2 is the goodie for the shotguns, instead of the no assault after firing of the Bolter.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A shotgun, for the most part, is not a rapid-fire weapon.

I think Assault 2 refers to multiple projectiles fired per shot, not a rapid rate of fire

Assault refers to the indiscriminate nature of buckshot, spreading out a bit. The two part... I guess the chance of hitting two targets with the shot from one shell?

Or that while having an absolutely slower rate of fire than a pistol, a shotgun has far greater odds of actually hitting and thus you wind up with more potential hits in an engagement.

I'd imagine it to be S3 Ap6 Assault 2, Shred, personally.

Pardon the point cost, maybe 10 points, not as powerful thana a plasma rifle, but with a special rule very useful on the charge.
And about the strenght, maybe is overpoewered, but we have to take on count that a shotgun is a powerful weapon on close range, hence the 12" range. I give S5 considering the size, naturally, it´s not going to be a weapon for normal human, its a astarter weapon, a huge piece of metal shoothing as much slug as a hole storm, literally. Assault 2 is much better, is a weapon that dont need lot of aim, so no need of carefuly shoot to hit something, give you enougth time to react and charge.
Maybe we can change the range and make it instead a template weapon, a la flamethrower, just like the frag cannon of the blood angels, of course, without rending.
Strike down sound better for the nature of the weapon, by the stoping power that is suposse to have

 Mezmerro wrote:
Salvo is a terible idea, as it prevent unit from charging.

18" is not justified at all for a shotgun.

S5 too - it fires buckshot, not a plasma or 100-caliber explosive missiles.

Space Marine shotgun.

SPACE MARINE

And I said salvo maybe.

Space Marine bolters are no better than normal bolters. Why would Space Marine shotguns be any better than normal shotguns?

There's a reason that 12-gauge is the biggest shotgun shell in use. After that point you start to lose power instead of increase it.

 Largeblastmarker wrote:


Space Marine shotgun.

SPACE MARINE

And I said salvo maybe.

Yeah, which is why it got bumped to Strength 4. Puny guardsmen can only handle Strength 3 shotguns.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
There's a reason that 12-gauge is the biggest shotgun shell in use. After that point you start to lose power instead of increase it.

What? I don't think that's true. 12g is the largest popular shell because it's got enough power to handle deer while being manageable by a fairly average guy. People have used much larger shotgun shells when they wanted more power and were able to use it (due to shooting from a rest or just being stronger than average). 10-gauge is still a common hunting round, 8-gauge only stopped being used when it was banned for being too effective at slaughtering birds, big game guns went all the way up to 2-gauge and some punt guns were even bigger. There are multiple-projectile rounds you can fire from tank cannons.

Personally, I think the simplest fix for shotguns is to make them twin-linked. Reflects the purpose of shot shells, better, but still not too powerful, doesn't even require re-writing the main rulebook. Just say 'twin-linked shotgun' instead of 'shotgun'.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Space Marine bolters are no better than normal bolters. Why would Space Marine shotguns be any better than normal shotguns?

Pretty much nailed it on the head. An imperial guardsman can fire a bolter and its still 24" S4 rapid fire AP5. If you want a unique weapon then come up with a new name and some new lore (like they did with grav guns).

Then for your new weapon decide what is unique and interesting about the weapon? How are you going to differentiate it's role from other close range weapons e.g. flamer, plasma pistol, frag grenade. What makes it fun to use (hint: it's not the strength, range or AP that makes it fun).

Why are people likening the 40k shotgun to modern shotguns? Despite the Dark Age of Technology this is still the year 40,000 I am sure pseudo-Marine Scouts aren't carrying around "dinky" little shotguns. The OP is just trying to propose a new rule for them so that someone might actually consider taking them over the other options. 40k is full of pointless weapons and it's nice to discuss ways to make them useful.

How about two variants? One tactical and one assault... the assault one could be higher AP but use the flamer template to simulate "buck-shot". And I like the idea of the tactical one having concussive or strike-down with an actual AP though.

 Dinamarth wrote:
Why are people likening the 40k shotgun to modern shotguns? Despite the Dark Age of Technology this is still the year 40,000 I am sure pseudo-Marine Scouts aren't carrying around "dinky" little shotguns. The OP is just trying to propose a new rule for them so that someone might actually consider taking them over the other options. 40k is full of pointless weapons and it's nice to discuss ways to make them useful.

How about two variants? One tactical and one assault... the assault one could be higher AP but use the flamer template to simulate "buck-shot". And I like the idea of the tactical one having concussive or strike-down with an actual AP though.

Str 4, AP-, Assault 2, Spread
Spread: When fired at half its maximum range this weapon is twin-linked
It is as powerful as a bolter, and although it lacks any AP and has a shorter range, it is an assault weapon that can become twin-linked to make up for the low BS of the scouts. It fills the role between a bolter and a bolt pistol, it is shorter range than the bolter and more lethal than the bolt pistol, although you don't get an additional attack like if you have a BP/CCW combo.

Seeing as a normal shotgun is St 3, the Marine Scouts are already carrying around a form of super shotgun by making it St 4.

The main magic power of the Shotgun is that it is an assault weapon allowing the unit to charge after shooting. You could always replace the SM shotgun with a Bolter Carbine. Something that fires Bolter Rounds, has a 12 or 18 inch range and is Assault 2.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Space Marine bolters are no better than normal bolters. Why would Space Marine shotguns be any better than normal shotguns?

To answer this, because I am a filthy nitpicker, I give you a couple of Lexicanum quotes. (And these ones are actually properly sourced )

Lexicanum wrote:Boltguns usable by mere "mortals" come in various patterns, though they still follow the same basic design philosophy. Despite the fact that they pale in comparison to their larger cousins, their power is still such that they can easily cut a man in two.

Lexicanum wrote:Like other Space Marine weaponry, Astartes boltguns are designed around their superhuman physique. The weight of each weapon would require most humans to use a supporting brace, with hand-grips larger than any normal human could manage. However, even if a normal human were to fire the boltgun, the resulting recoil would rip their arm from its socket.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bolter

Space Marine Bolters =/= normal human Bolters.

Unless you purely meant the actual in-game stats that are skewed for balance and D6 system reasons, in which case, just ignore me.

Edit: typo.

 Dinamarth wrote:
Why are people likening the 40k shotgun to modern shotguns? Despite the Dark Age of Technology this is still the year 40,000 I am sure pseudo-Marine Scouts aren't carrying around "dinky" little shotguns. The OP is just trying to propose a new rule for them so that someone might actually consider taking them over the other options. 40k is full of pointless weapons and it's nice to discuss ways to make them useful.

How about two variants? One tactical and one assault... the assault one could be higher AP but use the flamer template to simulate "buck-shot". And I like the idea of the tactical one having concussive or strike-down with an actual AP though.

This, thanks, you get the point of the post, the shotgun have great potential but it is just reduce to a bolt pistol with one extra shot, i like the idea of the range, but what about this

Space marine shotgun S5 12" assault 2/ spread*
*spread: if the target is within the half of the range of the weapon, keep the same strenght of the perfil, from the half to up the max range, the strenght of the weapon is 4 instead of 5

The normal shotguns suck and with the new move shoot rapid fire it just gets worse i see no reason for sm scouts to ever take it over bolter/bolt pistol and guards man over there lasgun.

This is the rules my friend and I use for skirmishs, where we use more detailed rules for kill team style games.

Astartes Shotgun: R:24''/12''/6'' S:3/4/5 AP:- T:Assault2, Buckshot, Pointblank.

(Buckshot: Weapons with this special rule always count there strength as 3 when calculating Armour penerating rolls)
(Pointblank: a model weilding a weapon with this special rule may forfeit its normal attacks in assault to peform a single attack using this weapons profile with an additional plus one to its maxium strength and one better armour pericing value, this is otherwise performed as a normal close combat attack and in no respects counts as a shooting attack)

Combat Shotgun: R:12''/6'' S:3/4 AP:- T:Assault2, Buckshot, Pointblank.

(Buckshot: Weapons with this special rule always count there strength as 3 when calculating Armour penerating rolls)
(Pointblank: a model weilding a weapon with this special rule may forfeit its normal attacks in assault to peform a single attack using this weapons profile with an additional plus one to its maxium strength and one better armour pericing value, this is otherwise performed as a normal close combat attack and in no respects counts as a shooting attack)

I used to include shred but its just a bit much for what such be an interesting alternative not a trump card.

I would like to devise some rules for shot guns to give a benifit during room clearence but have yet to do that.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Space Marine bolters are no better than normal bolters. Why would Space Marine shotguns be any better than normal shotguns?

To answer this, because I am a filthy nitpicker, I give you a couple of Lexicanum quotes. (And these ones are actually properly sourced )

Lexicanum wrote:Boltguns usable by mere "mortals" come in various patterns, though they still follow the same basic design philosophy. Despite the fact that they pale in comparison to their larger cousins, their power is still such that they can easily cut a man in two.

Lexicanum wrote:Like other Space Marine weaponry, Astartes boltguns are designed around their superhuman physique. The weight of each weapon would require most humans to use a supporting brace, with hand-grips larger than any normal human could manage. However, even if a normal human were to fire the boltgun, the resulting recoil would rip their arm from its socket.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bolter

Space Marine Bolters =/= normal human Bolters.

Unless you purely meant the actual in-game stats that are skewed for balance and D6 system reasons, in which case, just ignore me.

Edit: typo.

That's information taken from the Fantasy Flight Games books and is in direct contradiction with Codex: Sisters of Battle which states that their bolters are "The equal of those carried by Space Marines in every way".

 Furyou Miko wrote:


That's information taken from the Fantasy Flight Games books and is in direct contradiction with Codex: Sisters of Battle which states that their bolters are "The equal of those carried by Space Marines in every way".

Well, awesome. Since, to my knowledge, FFG is canon as well, we have ourselves another contradiction.

This begs the question though, why are not the Marines given bigger/better guns? They are, you know, supposed to be the super-elite of the Imperium, and can physically use pretty big guns.

I would suggest making shotguns give the benefit of assault grenades when assaulting a unit who has been hit by them, but SM already have grenades, so that doesnt matter.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Space Marine bolters are no better than normal bolters. Why would Space Marine shotguns be any better than normal shotguns?

To answer this, because I am a filthy nitpicker, I give you a couple of Lexicanum quotes. (And these ones are actually properly sourced )

Lexicanum wrote:Boltguns usable by mere "mortals" come in various patterns, though they still follow the same basic design philosophy. Despite the fact that they pale in comparison to their larger cousins, their power is still such that they can easily cut a man in two.

Lexicanum wrote:Like other Space Marine weaponry, Astartes boltguns are designed around their superhuman physique. The weight of each weapon would require most humans to use a supporting brace, with hand-grips larger than any normal human could manage. However, even if a normal human were to fire the boltgun, the resulting recoil would rip their arm from its socket.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bolter

Space Marine Bolters =/= normal human Bolters.

Unless you purely meant the actual in-game stats that are skewed for balance and D6 system reasons, in which case, just ignore me.

Edit: typo.

That's information taken from the Fantasy Flight Games books and is in direct contradiction with Codex: Sisters of Battle which states that their bolters are "The equal of those carried by Space Marines in every way".

Well, counthing that sisters wear power armour, i know that dont have the black carpace, hence they are still initiative 3, i like to thing that the black carpace allow the space marine move with their power armour as the same speed of their reflexes, if they didnt have it, then the space marines would move in a cumbersome way, clumsy on move and their reflexes would be limited by the armour

Woah woah woah...

...some people want strength 5 shotguns...

...some people want shotguns that can outright destroy a tank with a single blast to it's thin rear armor...

...when the 20mm gyrojet grenade launcher cant...

It would be hilarious to watch Bob with his 20mm super-nade launcher bounce off of the rear of a Leman Russ, while Fried firing a weapon which spreads its kinetic energy all over the place in tiny lead pellets blows the living christ out of said tank.

Yeah, which is exactly why a S4 shotgun is perfectly fine for marines.

Making them S5 is in the same league as making them a template weapon.

R:18" S:4 AP:- Assault 2, Strikedown
Buckshot: When firing at under half range, this weapon gains plus one Strength. Not it always counts as S:4 against targets with an armour value.

10ppm upgrade, replaces Boltgun

may purchase solid slug rounds 5 points per shotgun

Slug Rounds
R:24" S:5 AP:6 Assault 1

 IHateNids wrote:

10ppm upgrade, replaces Boltgun

may purchase solid slug rounds 5 points ..

So you pay 15 points for a weapon that is less good than a fire warrior pulse carbine. I think shotguns should be cheaper than a plasma gun:

Pts:4
R:12" S3 AP 6 Assault 1 Blast

So its a longer range frag grenade and you can give everyone one if you want (normally you can only throw 1 frag grenade). Plus how fun would it be rolling all those scatter dice!