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wtnind wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:

10ppm upgrade, replaces Boltgun

may purchase solid slug rounds 5 points ..

So you pay 15 points for a weapon that is less good than a fire warrior pulse carbine. I think shotguns should be cheaper than a plasma gun:

Pts:4
R:12" S3 AP 6 Assault 1 Blast

So its a longer range frag grenade and you can give everyone one if you want (normally you can only throw 1 frag grenade). Plus how fun would it be rolling all those scatter dice!

That's worse than modern shotguns, in most situations...

...and modern frags are Str 4 AP -, blast, iirc.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

This begs the question though, why are not the Marines given bigger/better guns? They are, you know, supposed to be the super-elite of the Imperium, and can physically use pretty big guns.

Isn't this why they have Heavy Weapon carrying troops? Whereas humans tend to have weapons teams?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

wtnind wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:



That's worse than modern shotguns, in most situations...

...and modern frags are Str 4 AP -, blast, iirc.

Frag Grenades are S3 AP-. Frag Missiles are S4 AP6. Both are small blast.

Jefffar wrote:Seeing as a normal shotgun is St 3, the Marine Scouts are already carrying around a form of super shotgun by making it St 4.

I believe that's because the normal shotgun uses fragmentation rounds, whereas the Marines use solid slugs.

Once upon a time, Marines and Guards used the same type of ammunition. Then the Dark Angels wanted to be special, so their 4th Edition Codex introcuded gave them S4 shotguns together with this piece of fluff:

"Shotguns are sturdy and versatile weapons wielded by warriors across the Imperium. Space Marine Scouts sometimes carry shotguns when they know their mission will involve short-range firefights and fast-moving tactics. The Dark Angels issue their Scouts with special 'Manstopper' shells for use in their combat shotguns. These use a particularly heavy solid cartridge with a massive propellant charge, making it more powerful than a normal solid shot."

Then, suddenly these started popping up in the other Chapters as well, and what used to be a Chapter-specific variant got turned into a new sort of standard. An example from the 5E Blood Angels Codex:

"Shotguns are sturdy and versatile weapons often carried by Space Marine Scouts. They are invariably loaded with manstopper shells to provide extra punch."

Of course, it kind of sucks for the Guard that the one advantage of their shotguns is no longer represented in the rules. Back at around 2E, shotguns actually had a Blast Area. Note the different profiles in this scan of the old Wargear book:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:This begs the question though, why are not the Marines given bigger/better guns? They are, you know, supposed to be the super-elite of the Imperium, and can physically use pretty big guns.

They do use physically bigger guns - it's just that their weapons are actually armoured themselves, so as to better withstand the stress of close quarters battle and stuff like a Marine breaking through a wall or using his bolter as an impromptu hammer to club in some Ork's skull. This makes their weapons more reliable whilst keeping their ammunition compatible with Imperial forces throughout the galaxy, so that they could tap into regimental supplies whenever their own stocks should run low - certainly, that's better than hightailing back to their own homeworld, or having to go beg another Chapter. I imagine their starships are loaded with ammunition, but simply having the option to go ask the Guard surely must be a nice thing to have, just on the off-chance that your campaign really does last long enough to empty even a strike cruiser's armoury, or that ship gets destroyed, or an airdrop for resupply is too dangerous due to enemy airpower or AA capabilities.

The next level of the cal .75 shell is the Heavy Bolter's 1.00 slug, and considering its size it just strikes me as very impractical to put this into a rifle. As an assault-specced shock trooper, how many shots do you want to get out of your magazine?

(this is another difference I could imagine, by the way - the 3E rulebook mentions bolters having magazines of between 20-30 rounds - I'd imagine that Marine magazines are closer to the 30, whereas a normal human would be closer to the 20)

 Lynata wrote:

Jefffar wrote:Seeing as a normal shotgun is St 3, the Marine Scouts are already carrying around a form of super shotgun by making it St 4.

I believe that's because the normal shotgun uses fragmentation rounds, whereas the Marines use solid slugs.





Of course, it kind of sucks for the Guard that the one advantage of their shotguns is no longer represented in the rules. Back at around 2E, shotguns actually had a Blast Area. Note the different profiles in this scan of the old Wargear book:

yes, but guard get free frag grenades iirc.

Largeblastmarker wrote:yes, but guard get free frag grenades iirc.

Doesn't everyone these days?

The solution is plain and simple:

Space Marine Shotgun: S4 Ap - Strikedown

That's enough to make the Shotgun competetive - now you are given the choice of either:

1) Rapid-firing bolters + overwatch (aka "keep the enemy at a distance" defensive mode)

2) Boltpistol + CCW (aka shoot and assault mode)

3) Shotguns (combination of the above two - you got double the firepower of 2) at 12", and can move shoot and charge unlike 1). On top of that, your FIRST round of close combat is just as deadly as in 2) but in a different way - instead of your scouts having 1 additional attack, they now get to strike first almost all the time)

 Sir Arun wrote:
The solution is plain and simple:

Space Marine Shotgun: S4 Ap - Strikedown

That's enough to make the Shotgun competetive - now you are given the choice of either:

1) Rapid-firing bolters + overwatch (aka "keep the enemy at a distance" defensive mode)

2) Boltpistol + CCW (aka shoot and assault mode)

3) Shotguns (combination of the above two - you got double the firepower of 2) at 12", and can move shoot and charge unlike 1). On top of that, your FIRST round of close combat is just as deadly as in 2) but in a different way - instead of your scouts having 1 additional attack, they now get to strike first almost all the time)

I like it nice job

 Lynata wrote:

Largeblastmarker wrote:yes, but guard get free frag grenades iirc.

Doesn't everyone these days?

mutilators and warptalons....