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They're great vs. Fire Warriors, for sure. Space Wolf HB squads are delightfully cheap, and pretty darn effective too... t3/t4 4+ saves just don't hold up!

I love my HB Dev's.
But then I play in a xenos infantry heavy environment.

I use them on IF Devs, Reroll 1's and Tank hunters makes them great vs xenon and light vehicles.

There is no reason to take HB Devs/Tactical Combat Squads. They suck against anything that's not light infantry fundamentally. Here's three statements:

A) You're Marines. If you can't handle light infantry you're doing it wrong.
B) You're playing 40k. If you can't kill AV10 you're doing it wrong.
C) Thunderfire Cannons, flamer units and Whirlwinds are infinitely better because they come by default with ignores cover weapon properties, meaning that entrenched enemy light infantry get decimated and all those tactics like going to ground behind an ADL for a 2+ cover become useless. Coincidently all of those units are cheaper and aren't useless at killing things that aren't light infantry with only the possible exception of the Whirlwind.

They're just mediocre, and noone likes mediocrity, so noone takes them.

It's funny how the recent Tau and Eldar codices actually made their HB equivalents better, but the SM HB didn't get any stat change. For instance, the Tau Burst Cannon is Assault 4 now instead of Assault 3, and the Eldar Shuriken Cannon comes with the Bladestorm special rule which is rending towards infantry (doesnt affect vehicles)

Doesn't the bladestorm give it AP2 which makes it nastier if it penetrate the armour of vehicles?

Only on to wound rolls, not armor penetration rolls.

Ah thats interesting - will remember that thanks

I'm spending ages concocting an IF army for my son, and got dreadfully excited when I thought about kiting around light infantry (out of small arms range and out of LoS of potential threats) with a squadron of 2 land speeders with double heavy bolter. That's 120 pts for an average 10 S5 AP4 hits. Pretty decent no?

Nothing like making your opponent roll lots of dice.

Sethorly wrote:
I'm spending ages concocting an IF army for my son, and got dreadfully excited when I thought about kiting around light infantry (out of small arms range and out of LoS of potential threats) with a squadron of 2 land speeders with double heavy bolter. That's 120 pts for an average 10 S5 AP4 hits. Pretty decent no?

Nothing like making your opponent roll lots of dice.

Just remember the speeders don't get bolter drill, as they are vehicles!

Use attack bikes. Fewer points and more shots!

 Bobaram wrote:
Just remember the speeders don't get bolter drill, as they are vehicles!

Do you have a page number for that?
I didn't think anything mattered about what the unit was, unless the chapter has to ally it in to get it.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Bobaram wrote:
Just remember the speeders don't get bolter drill, as they are vehicles!

Do you have a page number for that?
I didn't think anything mattered about what the unit was, unless the chapter has to ally it in to get it.

vehicles do not have chapter tactics. It's just not n their rules.

 McNinja wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Bobaram wrote:
Just remember the speeders don't get bolter drill, as they are vehicles!

Do you have a page number for that?
I didn't think anything mattered about what the unit was, unless the chapter has to ally it in to get it.

vehicles do not have chapter tactics. It's just not n their rules.

As McNinja said, only models with Chapter Tactics get the bonus from a Chapter Tactic, no vehicles ig. with armor values. Have the Chapter Tactics rule. I have it in the digital codex, so the page numbers never match up. =/

Indeed. The only exception is Iron Hands.

Here's a YMDC Thread on it too. Took me off guard, made me rethink an entire list! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/557858.page

As mentioned, attack bikes can give the same thing.

The HB is a decent enough choice if you just want something that will consistently generate wounds on infantry type enemies. Obviously it is not an anti armor weapon, being only marginally useful against light armor.

I had pretty good success running it as the heavy weapon for a combat squad that would run up and man my ADL Quadgun. It meshed with the Quad for putting a decent volume of mid strength shots on a target, and given that I used the squad to target light armor and infantry it worked well in that role.

I'm not saying it's an amazing weapon, but for only 10pts it's a good option for increasing the firepower of an infantry squad.

Sethorly wrote:
I'm spending ages concocting an IF army for my son, and got dreadfully excited when I thought about kiting around light infantry (out of small arms range and out of LoS of potential threats) with a squadron of 2 land speeders with double heavy bolter. That's 120 pts for an average 10 S5 AP4 hits. Pretty decent no?

Nothing like making your opponent roll lots of dice.

Speeders are pretty awesome if you have other threats that your enemy has to focus on. My two Typhoons are one of the last units I would cut from any list.

 Bobaram wrote:
As McNinja said, only models with Chapter Tactics get the bonus from a Chapter Tactic, no vehicles ig. with armor values. Have the Chapter Tactics rule. I have it in the digital codex, so the page numbers never match up. =/

So, if the unit has the 'Chapter Tactics' rule, the CT applies to them. If not, nope.
Good to know, as I'd not noticed, and needs keeping an eye on.

 Sir Arun wrote:
It's funny how the recent Tau and Eldar codices actually made their HB equivalents better, but the SM HB didn't get any stat change. For instance, the Tau Burst Cannon is Assault 4 now instead of Assault 3, and the Eldar Shuriken Cannon comes with the Bladestorm special rule which is rending towards infantry (doesnt affect vehicles)

The Burst Cannon is range 18, and S5AP5. I really don't see how it equivalent to a Heavy Bolter, in any way.
If any, it can be compared to hurricane bolter.

Meh. If Heavy Bolters could be fired while moving at full BS they'd be okay as a close range support weapon. If you took enough of them they'll do something certainly but then again if you take enough Lasguns they'll do something. Doesn't make either of them particularly good.

That said, I can see their use by IF armies.

I play Imperial Fists, and i find that heavy bolter devestators are much better versus light infantry than thunderfires or whirlwinds. the number of hits you can generate is staggering, they aren't terribly expensive, and they can reliably threaten light vehicles with having Tank hunters as well as bolter drill. I'll still include whirlwinds and thunderfires, they are situationally better than HB devs, so it can be useful to cover all bases

I think any IF armylist should have 1 HS slot occupied by HB Devs and another by Centurion Devs

madtankbloke wrote:
I play Imperial Fists, and i find that heavy bolter devestators are much better versus light infantry than thunderfires or whirlwinds. the number of hits you can generate is staggering, they aren't terribly expensive, and they can reliably threaten light vehicles with having Tank hunters as well as bolter drill. I'll still include whirlwinds and thunderfires, they are situationally better than HB devs, so it can be useful to cover all bases

A squad of IF HB Devs kills on average 2.2~ Marines a turn. A Thunderfire Cannon only has to hit 8 times with 4 S6 small blasts to get equal averages. And I would definitely say I often get more hits than that.

If you're struggling to kill AV10/11, what are you even doing, frankly; there's no need for a unit that at the very best is only marginally better in very specific scenarios and performs an unneeded role that the TFC can attempt anyway. Taking the TFC over IF HB Devs is a no brainer in a competitive list.

Marines are not the target the HB wants to shoot at. look at 4+ save troops, the numbers are different.

I found a use for Heavy Bolters, but it's a bit of a novelty:

Kill Team games

In Kill Team games, you must take Specialists with USRs.

So you take 2 HBs with Armourbane and Fleshbane.

And you combine that with Bolter Drill Chapter Tactic.

Not since 2nd edition.

 Sir Arun wrote:
I think any IF armylist should have 1 HS slot occupied by HB Devs and another by Centurion Devs

If you use the new suppliment, you can bring 3 squads of Centurion Devs and 3 squads of HB Devs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
A squad of IF HB Devs kills on average 2.2~ Marines a turn. A Thunderfire Cannon only has to hit 8 times with 4 S6 small blasts to get equal averages. And I would definitely say I often get more hits than that.

When I'm bringing 2 TFCs my opponents never lets get get more than 2 models under the template. The only way I can get 3 is when I scatter or flip. On an average TFC barrage I get 6. (including the times it deviates right off)

I admit I play in a competitive environment, but still I find it surprising that you get that many models in an average barrage.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
I think any IF armylist should have 1 HS slot occupied by HB Devs and another by Centurion Devs

If you use the new suppliment, you can bring 3 squads of Centurion Devs and 3 squads of HB Devs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
A squad of IF HB Devs kills on average 2.2~ Marines a turn. A Thunderfire Cannon only has to hit 8 times with 4 S6 small blasts to get equal averages. And I would definitely say I often get more hits than that.

When I'm bringing 2 TFCs my opponents never lets get get more than 2 models under the template. The only way I can get 3 is when I scatter or flip. On an average TFC barrage I get 6. (including the times it deviates right off)

I admit I play in a competitive environment, but still I find it surprising that you get that many models in an average barrage.

If your opponent has spread out to that extent then the TFC has fulfilled a disruptive role that puts the rest of your army in closer proximity for shooting and assault. Even if you get 2-3 models under each template that's still equal averages to the HB's.

The best way to compare the DMG output of the TFC to IF HB Dev is to compare their damage per point value.
Lets say that were shooting 5 IF Devs with 4 HB at a target. The DPP values look like the following. This assumes the bolter is at long range.
GEQ 75.42
MEQ 20.01
TEQ 10.06
MC (Riptide) 12.37

If your TFC hit 6 targets, its values look like this.
GEQ 50
MEQ 16.67
TEQ 5.5
MC (Riptide) 3.3
The TFC has a much harder time hurting TEQ and Riptides due to the large bases. Its just much harder to tag 3 terminators under a small blast. On the plus side, its easy to stay on a riptide, but the lack of shots means its still not the best tool.
7 hits with the TFC make it even to the HBs on killing MEQ and TEQ. 9 hits make it even on killing GEQ. Remember that you will also be scattering off the target completely sometimes so need to adjust your comparison accordingly. Even 20% of the shots missing will skew the numbers significantly.

So, is the thunderfire better? Well, it depends on how many targets your tagging under the template. You might be always tagging at least 10, as Mr.Omega indicates. You might be more like me, and tagging less. That depends on your opponents. As Mr.Omega noted, it does help with forcing your opponent to spread out. It also is good for sniping and causing pinning tests. I personally play with 2 of them in my WS list.

However, I can see a role for HB devs if your going with IF. They can put a hurting on riptides -- which is something I see painfully commonly in my meta.