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Would you play against a Space Marine player who has a non-standard chapter/color scheme (either his own chapter, or say a chapter like the Blood Ravens) and uses this as an excuse to switch chapter tactics every other game?

Or is this advanced douchebaggery?

It depends - if he's experimenting to find which one fits him best, then I'd allow it.
If it's list tailoring for specific opponents, then I'd go for option B.

I second what Predakhaine has to say on the subject.

But then, and I admit to knowing not a lot about the new chapter tactics, are there that many that are biased towards one opponent for example Eldar or Tau?

Casual games sure, but in a league / campaign, or tournament setting no. Look at how many people swap Marine Codicies while using the same army, depending on what they feel like each week.

This is like saying "Oh you played Necrons last time, well you're stuck playing Necrons, you can never play any other army."

Have at it. I'd go one step further and use a single Marine army to play most of the MEQ codices, obviously with appropriate wargear. Heavy use of magnets required.

So, yes, switch your CTs as often as you like. Just tell your opponent before hand and have it clearly written on the army list you present them.

In fact, I'd buy a marine army with the intention of using it to play C: DA, C: BA, C: SW, and C: SM. They're all marine with bolters anyways, with one or two minor changes on some specific units.

As long as it is in the list prior to him showing up at the table, I would not care. I would not be a big fan of showing a player my list and then having them choose their CT. Otherwise go for it.

Yeah, as long as it's before hand, then whatever.

Honestly in today's meta if someone is playing marines, go right ahead.

They already are at a handicap. You might as well give them some flexability.

If the player is meta-gaming to your list, I'd say it is a certainly baggery at a small scale.

Otherwise, if he has this list before he knows who he is playing...it is all well and good.

If you have to, make a marker or banner with the chapter emblem for each main chapter, and put that on the table when you play.
That way, if the ask which chapter tactics you are using, point at the banner.

If it's written on the army list then it's a non issue. The marine player is still using his own book. That's like getting am at someone for using the shield eternal in one game a SS in the next.

I for one fully intend on making a marine army with my own color scheme so that I can use different chapter tactics at different times. There are so many fun ways to run marines now with the different tactics, I don't know why you'd ever limit yourself to just one.

That being said, I would also agree with the other posters that changing chapter tactics during a tournament would not only be a douchebag move, but that's downright cheating. I would also advocate that tailoring your chapter tactics just to beat a specific opponent is lame.

I'm surprised at the replies. I agree with Predakhaine that if you are starting a new SM army you should experiment in the beginning.

But IMO once you have decided what chapter to field, and how to paint your army (and if you are making a custom chapter, think what parent Legion they are from etc.) then you should settle down for one CT (or two if you take a second detachment). Continuing to switch CTs is kinda powergaming. CTs are just that - a reward for fielding a special type of SM army.

 Sir Arun wrote:
I'm surprised at the replies. I agree with Predakhaine that if you are starting a new SM army you should experiment in the beginning.

But IMO once you have decided what chapter to field, and how to paint your army (and if you are making a custom chapter, think what parent Legion they are from etc) that continuing to switch CTs is kinda powergaming. CTs are just that - a reward for fielding a special type of SM army.

Why is it powergaming?

If a list is made in the blind to take on anything (a TAC list), but I switch the CTs every so often because I can, would I be powergaming?

I'd certainly hope not. Do people honestly care so much that someone with a MEQ army may switch codices or CTs for something new and fresh, or perhaps better if their normal codex is outdated?

Personally, if I receive an army list from an opponent, and everything is WYSIWYG, I wouldn't care if he's using the Red marine codex, or the Blue marine codex, or the Green marine codex. Its a MEQ army, they all fundamentally look the same.

Breng77 wrote:
As long as it is in the list prior to him showing up at the table, I would not care. I would not be a big fan of showing a player my list and then having them choose their CT. Otherwise go for it.

This so much this.

People that already bought special characters of different chapters before codex is stuck with those models unless they strip and paint half there crap to fit.
As long as its properly marked and writin down FIRST there should never be a problem.

The point in question here is, what is the current player's skill level and what is the situation for the game in question?

If it is a new player trying out a new codex set of options, then it is perfectly accpetable, and should be encouraged to find the right fit for his army.

Heck, even if a veteren player wants to paint up some vanilla marines, to represent any codex he feels like playing for that game, should be just fine.

ONLY WHEN, you are in some type of tournament or league setting where you have one army list for that set of games, should it not be allowed to change from game to game. Usually those formats have an army list and that is what you play for those games.

Any tournament organizer who allows the swapping of codexes or the tailoring of armies before hand during tournament or league games should allow all players to do it or no players to do it. Any other execution of "codex"/"army list" swaps just sounds like a shady tourney/league to begin with.

I think the only time it would irk me a little is if somebody is playing one of the named chapters while using different chapter tactics. Like running actual UM while using RG tactics. It would just feel off to me, but not enough to not play against them.

The biggie would be what has been already mentioned. If the CT is picked before even knowing the enemy it's all good. Somebody looking at your army and list and then going "...I think I will use this CT" is no different than somebody tailoring their lists to beat you.

So if you choose to make your own chapter, any chapter tactics may be used at any time (before your models are actually put down on the table.)
If you use Ultramarines or Raven Guard (in fact any codex chapter) you are now hamstrung as you may only play your official chapter tactics.

Is that what we're saying?

If you are replying to me:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
So if you choose to make your own chapter, any chapter tactics may be used at any time (before your models are actually put down on the table.)

I would say that any chapter tactics should be decided upon when you write your lists, and by the time you tell your opponent what army you are playing at the latest.

If you use Ultramarines or Raven Guard (in fact any codex chapter) you are now hamstrung as you may only play your official chapter tactics.

Is that what we're saying?

I'm not saying that I would consider it a rule requirement that you play the Chapter Tactics that matches the paintjob of your Space Marines, and I would still play you if you are playing an army where it doesn't.

It would just kind of bother me in my head, that's all. I wouldn't make any comments about it during the match ("I saw that your UM assault marines used their JPs during their movement and assault, how very Raven Guard of them....") or anything like that. I probably would not even tell you that it bothers me. It's probably just a touch OCD for it to bother me at all, and I have no problem admitting that .

 Sir Arun wrote:


But IMO once you have decided what chapter to field, and how to paint your army (and if you are making a custom chapter, think what parent Legion they are from etc.) then you should settle down for one CT (or two if you take a second detachment).

Why is it important to you that I play my army in one unchanging way?

Would it affect you in the same way if I completely switched armies (codexes) every few games, as well?

If so, could you put into words why that is?

You have the possibility of adding some spice to your army, why wouldn't you take advantage of that? As long as the CTs aren't changed mid-game I have absolutely no problems with someone changing them.

Now with FW's rules, you can even have MORE spice. I love it, suddenly C:SM has a lot of interesting small differences that changes the game every time you play!

 d-usa wrote:
If you are replying to me:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
So if you choose to make your own chapter, any chapter tactics may be used at any time (before your models are actually put down on the table.)

I would say that any chapter tactics should be decided upon when you write your lists, and by the time you tell your opponent what army you are playing at the latest.

If you use Ultramarines or Raven Guard (in fact any codex chapter) you are now hamstrung as you may only play your official chapter tactics.

Is that what we're saying?

I'm not saying that I would consider it a rule requirement that you play the Chapter Tactics that matches the paintjob of your Space Marines, and I would still play you if you are playing an army where it doesn't.

It would just kind of bother me in my head, that's all. I wouldn't make any comments about it during the match ("I saw that your UM assault marines used their JPs during their movement and assault, how very Raven Guard of them....") or anything like that. I probably would not even tell you that it bothers me. It's probably just a touch OCD for it to bother me at all, and I have no problem admitting that .

I wasn't specifically replying to you, I was asking everyone in the thread - apologies, I should have made that clearer
I agree with you on the OCD bit

Does anyone else feel this makes official chapters less viable now?
Your own chapter can use any tactics, but if you go UM or IF then you 'should' be using the correct tactics.
This could come up on the tabletop as an argument if you're unlucky.
How about going to a tourney and using UM's but with Salamander chapter tactics?

Stop making it more complicated then it already is. This game has enough rules as it is. I'm going through the trouble of designing my own chapter scheme and emblem so I have that flexibility. Not because of power gaming but becuase I like the model's. ( all of them) it adds veriaty. I don't have to buy a whole new army every time. Just buy the respective codex and different model's and your good to go. Stop trying to put me in a box. Veriaty is good, cookie cutter is bad. Do I have to get the rolled up newspaper?

 Sir Arun wrote:
Continuing to switch CTs is kinda powergaming. CTs are just that - a reward for fielding a special type of SM army.

I'm not sure about that.

It's not like your picking up your Marines and turning them into Tau. They are the same army, just with some different rules on how they play.

In fact, the flexability of marines is one of their outstanding perks. If you want to run SW, BA, or C:SM you can all with roughly the same models (so long as your WYSIWYG).

What I would be uncool with is someone saying 'these models from my army are a different chapter' when they are the same colors. Paint them up differently if you want to use them as allies.

Whats the porblem? Surely the independant chapters ability to swap its tactics was to make up for the fact that they dont get to use any special characters? As long as it's declared before you see your opponents list its no worse than designing an assualt army to get Tau, or any other sort of sculpting done to fight against a known opponent?

 d-usa wrote:
I think the only time it would irk me a little is if somebody is playing one of the named chapters while using different chapter tactics. Like running actual UM while using RG tactics. It would just feel off to me, but not enough to not play against them.

If someone is covered in ultramarines banners, I can see that.

But what if someone just likes the blue color scheme and roman imagery? Should they be punished because they did not want to paint their army black?

 labmouse42 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I think the only time it would irk me a little is if somebody is playing one of the named chapters while using different chapter tactics. Like running actual UM while using RG tactics. It would just feel off to me, but not enough to not play against them.

If someone is covered in ultramarines banners, I can see that.

But what if someone just likes the blue color scheme and roman imagery? Should they be punished because they did not want to paint their army black?

I wouldn't punish either of them for it, but I would probably twitch a little less with the second guy

 wowsmash wrote:
Stop making it more complicated then it already is. This game has enough rules as it is. I'm going through the trouble of designing my own chapter scheme and emblem so I have that flexibility. Not because of power gaming but becuase I like the model's. ( all of them) it adds veriaty. I don't have to buy a whole new army every time. Just buy the respective codex and different model's and your good to go. Stop trying to put me in a box. Veriaty is good, cookie cutter is bad. Do I have to get the rolled up newspaper?

Designing your own chapter is fine and using whatever tactics you want is fine. We've already covered that

I can see original first founding chapters and their successors losing flexibility in the face of predjudice due to this codex.

I will make a prediction now - Someone is going to play a game, then come onto Dakka and complain that this is the attitude he recieved from the other end of the table. Especially in more competitive games...

"Ultramarines?! but you're using Iron Hands chapter tactics?!Powergamer! TFG!"

Whereas someone using their custom chapter won't get the same response, it'd be more like
"Oh, You're using them as Raven Guard? fair enough"

I've used my own custom chapter of Space Wolves since 2nd ed - use whatever models and themes you like for your army, I'd play against anything. I don't turn games down.

But why should first founding chapters HAVE to use the right chapter tactics when custom chapters don't?
IMO - marines should either ALL be able to do whatever they like or they should ALL have to choose and stick forever.

Anything else is unfair on the guys who have first founding chapters :(

The colour of the marines doesn't matter.

Be they 1st, 2nd, 21st, or 69th founding chapter, you can use whatever CT or even Codex you want if its WYSIWYG. I could take a Salamanders army, and use C: DA to represent the Firedrakes 1st company using Deathwing rules.

Pink, blue, yellow, brown, whatever colour has zero relevance to the CT or codex of a marine army. As long as they're WYSIWYG and your opponent is aware of the codex/CT, and the list has it clearly written out, it shouldn't matter.

 Blacksails wrote:
The colour of the marines doesn't matter.

Be they 1st, 2nd, 21st, or 69th founding chapter, you can use whatever CT or even Codex you want if its WYSIWYG. I could take a Salamanders army, and use C: DA to represent the Firedrakes 1st company using Deathwing rules.

Pink, blue, yellow, brown, whatever colour has zero relevance to the CT or codex of a marine army. As long as they're WYSIWYG and your opponent is aware of the codex/CT, and the list has it clearly written out, it shouldn't matter.

100% Agree. Just because someone loved Salamanders and painted his army as Salamanders, it shouldn't block him from enjoying his codex options! That would be ridiculous!