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 TheKbob wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I would assault it with a single Flyrant and kill 665 points of things with a 260-285 point model.

Or Lysander tanks you like a boss and kills you. He will issue a challenge, get a reroll (two with corbulo) potentially), and squash your bug.

I was responding to the first deathstar, which was Tigerius+Centurions. As far as dealing with that Lysander+ Corbulo deathstar I'd go "thanks for concentrating all those points into one unit for me, I'm gonna ignore it and kill your squishies, have fun only killing one unit per turn".

Target lock. Kills two units a turn. Lysander breaks off after delivery to hassle. And as I said, the army is supported by a second, just as durable and deadly star.

The list had two units of scouts for squishees. Two stalkers for AA. Deathstars 1 and 2 and a distraction unit of Sanguinary Guard.

With my Eldar (assuming ideal powers)

Big unit of Dark Reapers + Farseer with Guide, Doom and the Divination power that makes them ignore cover and Spirit Seer with Jinx/Protect.

Jinx the Centurions down to 3+ save and Doom them, Guide the Reapers. Use the ignore cover power and then open fire. Problem solved.

With CSM

Large unit of Spawn with a biker or jugger lord (probably with axe of blind fury). Spawn only take wounds on a 6 cos of no armour save and the ap2 attacks on the lord will ruin them once he gets in.

Or a flying daemon prince without power armour and the black mace or axe of blind fury. He would walk all over them.

 Ravenous D wrote:
So this unit popped up at the store the other day and it did obscene amounts of damage to a regular tournament champion to the point where he went and bought it right after.

Its pretty simple and straight forward and not as easy to deal with as you would think.

Tigurius
6 Centurions with Grav cannons.

What this unit does:
- Re rolls hits and wounds with 30 grav cannon shots
- Optimal powers: Endurance(FNP, It will not die), Forewarning (4++), and Prescience (Re roll all to hit rolls)
- 18 or 36 twin linked bolter shots in addition to the grav guns
- Re rolls psychic tests
- Re roll reserves

First answer was "use orks" but after killing 15+ boyz consistently in test rolls, doesn't seem like an answer.

You kill 15 boyz (hell, lets even say 19) that unit is fearless still, and isn't going anywhere.

Then their 180+ buddies pour fire on you/gangfeth you in CC because you wasted your firepower on a unit of Boyz.

Assuming you don't get buries in loota shots, hit up by a burnawagon, SAG'd out of existence first...

Orks would actually work quite well against this unit, because orks are the masters of cheap firepower by the fethload to make you fail those saves,


DE - Disintegrator/lance spam would work well, i think. Massive splinterspam also, for the same reason as orks but with better accuracy...


You have a lot of firepower and survivability in that unit, to be sure, but it's also a hefty point sink. It can be worn down by forcing saves until a 1 pops up (though FNP helps), and can be ground down in combat, or simply tarpitted while the enemy cleans the rest of your army off the board.

I vote two units of 3 Cents in LR's, LRR's, or LRC's depending on the rest of your list. F-deathstaring it. Just giggle.

Oh, and in regards to the deathstars DA Black Knights make them sad. Including the Corbulo unit since it's gonna be toting rad grenades. Dual Wraithknight (fairly common), GK DCA unit with attached grenades, Grav Bikers, Orks in general, Nids in general, DE Venoms, Khorne Dogs, Screamer Star, getting hit by more than 2 FMC's from C, Sisters in general, Guard Blobs & Vendettas......

Sorry, got tired of writing a list. But there is more. So much more.

Its been my experience that deathstar/lynchpin lists tend to win big or lose big depending on the matchup.

Its also boring to play. You are going to do the same thing every time, because that is how it works.

 Ascalam wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
So this unit popped up at the store the other day and it did obscene amounts of damage to a regular tournament champion to the point where he went and bought it right after.

Its pretty simple and straight forward and not as easy to deal with as you would think.

Tigurius
6 Centurions with Grav cannons.

What this unit does:
- Re rolls hits and wounds with 30 grav cannon shots
- Optimal powers: Endurance(FNP, It will not die), Forewarning (4++), and Prescience (Re roll all to hit rolls)
- 18 or 36 twin linked bolter shots in addition to the grav guns
- Re rolls psychic tests
- Re roll reserves

First answer was "use orks" but after killing 15+ boyz consistently in test rolls, doesn't seem like an answer.

You kill 15 boyz (hell, lets even say 19) that unit is fearless still, and isn't going anywhere.

Then their 180+ buddies pour fire on you/gangfeth you in CC because you wasted your firepower on a unit of Boyz.

Assuming you don't get buries in loota shots, hit up by a burnawagon, SAG'd out of existence first...

Orks would actually work quite well against this unit, because orks are the masters of cheap firepower by the fethload to make you fail those saves,


DE - Disintegrator/lance spam would work well, i think. Massive splinterspam also, for the same reason as orks but with better accuracy...


You have a lot of firepower and survivability in that unit, to be sure, but it's also a hefty point sink. It can be worn down by forcing saves until a 1 pops up (though FNP helps), and can be ground down in combat, or simply tarpitted while the enemy cleans the rest of your army off the board.

Dark Eldar don't exist in 6th.

And you're assuming that all 180 boyz are going to be within shoota range? Each model killed pushes the ork lines back. Shock attack gun, really? Burna wagon wouldn't get within 24" of them. You're ignoring the rest of the marine army which could range from numerous amounts of rules. Add 5 scouts and this deathstar is an allied force for any marine, tau or guard list.

 TheKbob wrote:
Target lock. Kills two units a turn. Lysander breaks off after delivery to hassle. And as I said, the army is supported by a second, just as durable and deadly star.

The list had two units of scouts for squishees. Two stalkers for AA. Deathstars 1 and 2 and a distraction unit of Sanguinary Guard.

Split Fire will not kill 2 units a turn.

I play DE. Work well for me.

Perhaps you should listen to the Net less and play more games so that you run across a 6th Ed DE player once in a while

No, i;m assuming that they are going to be in shoota range, assault range or packing big shootas/Deffgunz etc. Some of them will be outside of range, to be sure, but enough should be in range each turn to give the unit a good hosing.

It isn't impossible to get 100 shootas within range of the unit though. 5 battlewagons would do it, and allow for 20 big shootas and 5 kannon as well, while still leaving plenty of board space to pack other stuff in around them. Sure the BW will eventually go down, but in the mean time they make decent rolling bunkers.

SAG works well for me. Highly reliable (for orks) AP 2 high strength shooting that almost always lands somewhere near where you want it. Sure it does occasionally gonzo, but small price to pay in a codex that is very short on AP 2.

Burnawagon x 1 might not - burnawagon x 3 probably will get one at least in range, especially if you are wasting fire on a boyz unit like in the example. Even if you target the wagons with everything you have you'll not be able to stop EVERYTHING from reaching you before it's too late.

You're ignoring the whole Ork army in your response, and the Deathstar in question is a huge whack of your points, which doesn't leave you much of a main contingent to ally to.

Feel free to though. I'd love to take this list on, and if you are ever in Salem, OR please bring it down to Borderlands Games.

What were you planning on allying it to?

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I would assault it with a single Flyrant and kill 665 points of things with a 260-285 point model.

Or Lysander tanks you like a boss and kills you. He will issue a challenge, get a reroll (two with corbulo) potentially), and squash your bug.

I was responding to the first deathstar, which was Tigerius+Centurions. As far as dealing with that Lysander+ Corbulo deathstar I'd go "thanks for concentrating all those points into one unit for me, I'm gonna ignore it and kill your squishies, have fun only killing one unit per turn".

Well the Flyrant would have to get into their 30" threat range in order to assault so.....

9 grav hits, 5 hurricane bolter hits on average, assuming he doesn't fail the ground check and the hurricane bolters do nothing, and he evades you're looking at a dead or best case nearly dead, hive tyrant.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I would assault it with a single Flyrant and kill 665 points of things with a 260-285 point model.

Or Lysander tanks you like a boss and kills you. He will issue a challenge, get a reroll (two with corbulo) potentially), and squash your bug.

I was responding to the first deathstar, which was Tigerius+Centurions. As far as dealing with that Lysander+ Corbulo deathstar I'd go "thanks for concentrating all those points into one unit for me, I'm gonna ignore it and kill your squishies, have fun only killing one unit per turn".

Well the Flyrant would have to get into their 30" threat range in order to assault so.....

9 grav hits, 5 hurricane bolter hits on average, assuming he doesn't fail the ground check and the hurricane bolters do nothing, and he evades you're looking at a dead or best case nearly dead, hive tyrant.

And then for the same point as your Deathstar, the other Flyrant lands and assaults. And your dead.

We can play Internet 40k all night long, it matters not until the models are on the table and the dice are being rolled. Anything can take out this deathstar when played properly.

Centurions are a great threat when played right. Usually deployed out of a LR, or SR (personal fav.). A walking Centurion squad will just be heavy weapon bait and probably combat ineffective when it gets in range.

Few things.

First, I already said that a list containing this type of deathstar went 5-1 at Feast of Blades Open. It's powerful and a good general makes it better.

Next, sixth is becoming rock paper scissors more than precious editions. You can scheme counters to this list that will fall greatly short.

Next, you buy a massive chapter master as your wounds sink as he's more killy and resilient than a land raider in today's meta unless you supremely over burden the cost of the unit. It's good, but it's not a Swiss army knife like a Paladin Star or Seer council. It stops things like a hive tyrant flying in to kill it because Lysander or the CM of Doom will squish that bug.

Last, target lock can kill two units a turn determining on your movement and target priority. Or you can guarantee to super kill just about any other unit. And it has a ton of resiliency played like I mentioned even if you use a normal sang priest over corbulo. The gents who schemed this list aren't dumb (wrecking crew I believe), one of the best tournament players.

My bikernobz would eat that unit alive....unless youre one of those people that like to play on open battlefields where theres virtually 0 LOS blocking terrain, bikes can easily snag that unit. Bikerboss causes pastes, bigchoppas/nob pk's cause a lot of wounds, lot of which you dont get your 2+ for.

Yet to find anything that doesnt have a high invul save or an MC that swings before me that will beat my bikernobz in combat. Lot of targets i get whacked in the process but i didnt lose. Boss + painboy +2-3 nobz are usually alive afterwords unless its something crazy like a Swarmlord lol. Dev Cents are purely guns, too. Once i get them, game over as you need some nice luck to even hurt me.

There's never been such a thing as a "true" deathstars. Even in their prime in 5th they had weaknesses - GK paladins died like bitches to the Imperial Guard.

 TheKbob wrote:
Few things.

First, I already said that a list containing this type of deathstar went 5-1 at Feast of Blades Open. It's powerful and a good general makes it better.

Next, sixth is becoming rock paper scissors more than precious editions. You can scheme counters to this list that will fall greatly short.

Next, you buy a massive chapter master as your wounds sink as he's more killy and resilient than a land raider in today's meta unless you supremely over burden the cost of the unit. It's good, but it's not a Swiss army knife like a Paladin Star or Seer council. It stops things like a hive tyrant flying in to kill it because Lysander or the CM of Doom will squish that bug.

Last, target lock can kill two units a turn determining on your movement and target priority. Or you can guarantee to super kill just about any other unit. And it has a ton of resiliency played like I mentioned even if you use a normal sang priest over corbulo. The gents who schemed this list aren't dumb (wrecking crew I believe), one of the best tournament players.

So what are you target locking with, to kill two units with this Centurion squad ?

Fragile wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Few things.

First, I already said that a list containing this type of deathstar went 5-1 at Feast of Blades Open. It's powerful and a good general makes it better.

Next, sixth is becoming rock paper scissors more than precious editions. You can scheme counters to this list that will fall greatly short.

Next, you buy a massive chapter master as your wounds sink as he's more killy and resilient than a land raider in today's meta unless you supremely over burden the cost of the unit. It's good, but it's not a Swiss army knife like a Paladin Star or Seer council. It stops things like a hive tyrant flying in to kill it because Lysander or the CM of Doom will squish that bug.

Last, target lock can kill two units a turn determining on your movement and target priority. Or you can guarantee to super kill just about any other unit. And it has a ton of resiliency played like I mentioned even if you use a normal sang priest over corbulo. The gents who schemed this list aren't dumb (wrecking crew I believe), one of the best tournament players.

So what are you target locking with, to kill two units with this Centurion squad ?

I'm really curious as to how 15 shots wounding on 6's is going to kill 30 models.

 TheKbob wrote:


Last, target lock can kill two units a turn determining on your movement and target priority. Or you can guarantee to super kill just about any other unit. And it has a ton of resiliency played like I mentioned even if you use a normal sang priest over corbulo. The gents who schemed this list aren't dumb (wrecking crew I believe), one of the best tournament players.

A normal Sang Priest does nothing as only BA units gain FNP, so if you attach a priest he has FNP but the cents do not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Few things.

First, I already said that a list containing this type of deathstar went 5-1 at Feast of Blades Open. It's powerful and a good general makes it better.

Next, sixth is becoming rock paper scissors more than precious editions. You can scheme counters to this list that will fall greatly short.

Next, you buy a massive chapter master as your wounds sink as he's more killy and resilient than a land raider in today's meta unless you supremely over burden the cost of the unit. It's good, but it's not a Swiss army knife like a Paladin Star or Seer council. It stops things like a hive tyrant flying in to kill it because Lysander or the CM of Doom will squish that bug.

Last, target lock can kill two units a turn determining on your movement and target priority. Or you can guarantee to super kill just about any other unit. And it has a ton of resiliency played like I mentioned even if you use a normal sang priest over corbulo. The gents who schemed this list aren't dumb (wrecking crew I believe), one of the best tournament players.

So what are you target locking with, to kill two units with this Centurion squad ?

I'm really curious as to how 15 shots wounding on 6's is going to kill 30 models.

to be fair, they get to reroll to wound, which is statisically similar to wounding on 5's.
Still not going to kill 30 orks, less so if they are in cover. About as effective as 15 lasguns. The hurricane bolters are probably better at killing orks, but you need missiles to avoid getting outranged.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheKbob wrote:


Next, sixth is becoming rock paper scissors more than precious editions. You can scheme counters to this list that will fall greatly short.

Next, you buy a massive chapter master as your wounds sink as he's more killy and resilient than a land raider in today's meta unless you supremely over burden the cost of the unit. It's good, but it's not a Swiss army knife like a Paladin Star or Seer council. It stops things like a hive tyrant flying in to kill it because Lysander or the CM of Doom will squish that bug.

They certainly are a rock. They can punk a lot of units. I would interject that DE seem to be paper in a meta full of scissors.

A lot of valid points in this thread but a lot of stupidity as well. Obviously they'll fold to pressure from 2++ rerollable DPs and seerstars, what doesn't?

In assembling the Centurion Deathstar you need to cover a lot of bases:

A) Survivability- they need an invuln of some sort, and FNP. Better yet, some one tough to stand in front to tank the wounds.

Solution: Corbulo is a nice trick but you have to then take BA, who are kind of crap at the moment. 2+ 3++ 5+ FNP. Chapter Master or O'Vesa.

B) Mobility- 6" doesn't quite cut it.

Solution: This depends on matchup, but ideally you want to be able to place them where they can do the most damage. Gate of Infinity (Tigurius or Sevrin Loth guarantees it), scouting White Scars Land Raider...

C) Utility- Slow and Purposeful really sucks. Any Deathstar worth its salt also needs Hit and Run. Prescience and Ignores Cover would also hugely benefit the unit.

Solution: Tau Buff Commander, Tigurius/ Sevrin for Endurance

My version of the Centurion Deathstar rolls O'Vesa, Torchstar, Shavastos and Sevrin, although Tigurius is better all round I think.

Its funny how useless this 700pt unit is against my DE. They truly pose no threat, at all, to anything. I either ignore it or pump enough splinters into it until it drops. Or my other Seer Star list would roll up with a 2+ cover save (Heck, have your ignore cover malediction, I have a 3+ deny the witch, usually with re-rolls. Always take one Runes of Warding) usually re-rollable. Then you face 18 twin linked rending shots and a butt-load of fleshbane attacks. A list spending that much on a unit like that shouldn't be a good list, and the one at feast of blades must of had lucky opponents. It will never be an ultra competitive list because in some matches it will be worthless, and in a tourney you need to be able to counter everything that is thrown at you, not just hope for a list you can take.

One "special" Space Marine with a rocket launcher can do it. Just one missile....just have to trust him to get the shot....also a Stornraven to distract the Centurions for the last few rounds...

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Its funny how useless this 700pt unit is against my DE. They truly pose no threat, at all, to anything. I either ignore it or pump enough splinters into it until it drops. Or my other Seer Star list would roll up with a 2+ cover save (Heck, have your ignore cover malediction, I have a 3+ deny the witch, usually with re-rolls. Always take one Runes of Warding) usually re-rollable. Then you face 18 twin linked rending shots and a butt-load of fleshbane attacks. A list spending that much on a unit like that shouldn't be a good list, and the one at feast of blades must of had lucky opponents. It will never be an ultra competitive list because in some matches it will be worthless, and in a tourney you need to be able to counter everything that is thrown at you, not just hope for a list you can take.

the Ignore Cover power (Perfect Timing) is a blessing you cast on your own unit, and you can't do anything to stop it. Even with a 4+ re-roll you're going to take heavy casualties from the amount of shots the Centstar puts out. 18 Twin-linked rending shots is a joke to Corbulo, the seerstar isn't paticularly great against 2+ saves anyway. Let's not pretend that DE are even close to being good in the current meta either. The inclusion of missile launchers on the Centstar will easily put down two DE paper planes a turn.

It's pretty absurd to attribute luck to a list you've never seen or fought. The results speak for themselves.

 Exergy wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:


Last, target lock can kill two units a turn determining on your movement and target priority. Or you can guarantee to super kill just about any other unit. And it has a ton of resiliency played like I mentioned even if you use a normal sang priest over corbulo. The gents who schemed this list aren't dumb (wrecking crew I believe), one of the best tournament players.

A normal Sang Priest does nothing as only BA units gain FNP, so if you attach a priest he has FNP but the cents do not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Few things.

First, I already said that a list containing this type of deathstar went 5-1 at Feast of Blades Open. It's powerful and a good general makes it better.

Next, sixth is becoming rock paper scissors more than precious editions. You can scheme counters to this list that will fall greatly short.

Next, you buy a massive chapter master as your wounds sink as he's more killy and resilient than a land raider in today's meta unless you supremely over burden the cost of the unit. It's good, but it's not a Swiss army knife like a Paladin Star or Seer council. It stops things like a hive tyrant flying in to kill it because Lysander or the CM of Doom will squish that bug.

Last, target lock can kill two units a turn determining on your movement and target priority. Or you can guarantee to super kill just about any other unit. And it has a ton of resiliency played like I mentioned even if you use a normal sang priest over corbulo. The gents who schemed this list aren't dumb (wrecking crew I believe), one of the best tournament players.

So what are you target locking with, to kill two units with this Centurion squad ?

I'm really curious as to how 15 shots wounding on 6's is going to kill 30 models.

to be fair, they get to reroll to wound, which is statisically similar to wounding on 5's.
Still not going to kill 30 orks, less so if they are in cover. About as effective as 15 lasguns. The hurricane bolters are probably better at killing orks, but you need missiles to avoid getting outranged.

I'm sorry, let me rephrase that. I'm curious as to how 5 shots wounding on 6's (with re-rolls) is going to kill 30 models. (I forgot that Split Fire only allows a single model to fire at a different target).

Medusae, Leman Russ Demolishers, Vindicators, Manticores (One failed save means dead duck), Vendettas, Lascannon/PG platoons and Plasma Vets. A lot of these options the centurions can't really damage reliably if at all. And they come cheaper to boot.

Maybe I am missing something but I see four HQs - Corbulo, Lysander, Dante, CM - how did that work? Dual FoC?

Corbulo is elite. 2sm hq and 1 ba.

The shooting out put seems to be getting underestimated a little against naked/6+ enemies.
6+ to wound, with re-roll, is 30.5%
With 30 shots, it's slightly over 9 wounds.

Add in hurricane bolters and you're getting 17 wounds at long and 25 at short, against a 6+ T4 unit.
Against T3, it's ~20 wounds at long, and ~30 at short.

It's a little better than it is getting credit for.

-Matt

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Medusae, Leman Russ Demolishers, Vindicators, Manticores (One failed save means dead duck), Vendettas, Lascannon/PG platoons and Plasma Vets. A lot of these options the centurions can't really damage reliably if at all. And they come cheaper to boot.

Manticores yes, (til they nerf them in the upcoming dex)
Demolishers and vindicators have the same threat range so its cat and mouse, that and the 50mm bases will mean only 1 or two will get hit at a time.
Vendettas will only knock one wound at a time and with either cover or the 4++ it will take some time. There might be other things in the army like storm talons.
Plasma vets will get 1 shot at 24", meaning they get in the zone of doom a turn or two before hand.

As for damaging reliably you are absolutely wrong. The sgt has pretty good odds of killing a tank on his own, and the rest of the unit will kill whatever vehicle or squad on their own. You're looking at 30 reroll hit/wound hits with grav weapons, against 5+ saves that's 14 wounds, plus the 18 bolter shots at 24" (36 shots at 12") from the hurricane bolters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The shooting out put seems to be getting underestimated a little against naked/6+ enemies.
6+ to wound, with re-roll, is 30.5%
With 30 shots, it's slightly over 9 wounds.

Add in hurricane bolters and you're getting 17 wounds at long and 25 at short, against a 6+ T4 unit.
Against T3, it's ~20 wounds at long, and ~30 at short.

It's a little better than it is getting credit for.

-Matt

I explained that back on page 1, but it seems that the group think is "needing 6s with rerolls wont kill anything!".

Honestly guys pick up some dice and try it, I wouldn't have posted it if it wasn't something to be aware of, more then likely some of you will run into it without the perfect situations, lists and bubbles you're suggesting in this thread.

I'm still a little surprised he used sang guard and dante ... was never impressed with sang guard overall but maybe i'm missing something. That squad is costly - what around 450-500 points? And you have your cent squad at what 550-650 points? I have to do the math. Surely there is a better secondary squad then Sang Guard?

 felixcat wrote:

I'm still a little surprised he used sang guard and dante ... was never impressed with sang guard overall but maybe i'm missing something. That squad is costly - what around 450-500 points? And you have your cent squad at what 550-650 points? I have to do the math. Surely there is a better secondary squad then Sang Guard?

The original post 6 cents with tigger is 675pts. Personally I wouldn't add anything else. depending on what army you chose to surround it could be the gaming winning difference.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Medusae, Leman Russ Demolishers, Vindicators, Manticores (One failed save means dead duck), Vendettas, Lascannon/PG platoons and Plasma Vets. A lot of these options the centurions can't really damage reliably if at all. And they come cheaper to boot.

Manticores yes, (til they nerf them in the upcoming dex)
Demolishers and vindicators have the same threat range so its cat and mouse, that and the 50mm bases will mean only 1 or two will get hit at a time.
Vendettas will only knock one wound at a time and with either cover or the 4++ it will take some time. There might be other things in the army like storm talons.
Plasma vets will get 1 shot at 24", meaning they get in the zone of doom a turn or two before hand.

As for damaging reliably you are absolutely wrong. The sgt has pretty good odds of killing a tank on his own, and the rest of the unit will kill whatever vehicle or squad on their own. You're looking at 30 reroll hit/wound hits with grav weapons, against 5+ saves that's 14 wounds, plus the 18 bolter shots at 24" (36 shots at 12") from the hurricane bolters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The shooting out put seems to be getting underestimated a little against naked/6+ enemies.
6+ to wound, with re-roll, is 30.5%
With 30 shots, it's slightly over 9 wounds.

Add in hurricane bolters and you're getting 17 wounds at long and 25 at short, against a 6+ T4 unit.
Against T3, it's ~20 wounds at long, and ~30 at short.

It's a little better than it is getting credit for.

-Matt

I explained that back on page 1, but it seems that the group think is "needing 6s with rerolls wont kill anything!".

Honestly guys pick up some dice and try it, I wouldn't have posted it if it wasn't something to be aware of, more then likely some of you will run into it without the perfect situations, lists and bubbles you're suggesting in this thread.

Okay, I will give it to you that these things can kill Leman Russ tanks. Even without factoring the grav amp rerolling we are looking at one dead demolisher per shooting phase and possibly two with it.

However, for same price you can get 3 Demolishers and 3 S10 AP 2 Blast Templates means some sad Centurions. And then there is the Medusa with it's very own S10 AP 2 pieplate which outranges the Grav cannons. You can get 4 Medusa for the same price. Or three Manticore.

The centurions will do some damage before ultimately going down, so if you really want some dead guard tanks they aren't bad for it. Just be aware that they will probably die.