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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/29 17:15:29
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
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Came across this playing the other day and couldn't find a thread on dakka about it so here it goes
A Wolf Guard Pack leader in TDA was in front of the GH squad when my friend decided to shoot his Grav Gun along with the rest of the bolters and rolled a 2 to wound with the Grav Gun. Now here is the problem, the Grav gun doesn't work off toughness so how does it treat a mixed unit of armour in regards to wounding them on different values? My thoughts is it would best work if it went off of the units majority armour even though RAW its doesn't really give clarity on how to deal with the Issue.
So can a Grav Gun even wound a mixed unit of armour and how would it do so?
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My purpose in life is to ruin yours. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/29 17:23:46
Subject: Re:Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Executing Exarch
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/29 17:26:28
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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While there is no strictly RAW way to handle this situation, the way that makes the most sense is to use majority armour, substituting Sv for T (but only sort of).
The only other possible way to do it is to roll grav guns a single To Wound at a time, against the closest target model. But we aren't given permission to do anything like this, and (I think ) it goes against the rule that all shooting happens simultaneously.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/29 17:31:29
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
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Thanks, these are perfect responses, exactly what I was looking for.
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My purpose in life is to ruin yours. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/29 17:45:25
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Fighter Ace
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Definitely going to remember this, even thinking about what to do when I saw this thread started to make my brain hurt.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/29 18:32:12
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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If you are going the toughness save route there is one important RAI thing i think should be done. If say a etheral and Riptide together you shouldnt take the highest armour save (of the etheral) like you would take the highest toughness value, you should be taking the best armour save like the best toughness value. I suppose you can look at it like taking the highest armour protection.....
I bring this up as i have seen a few people mention it before.
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40kGlobal AOA member, regular of Overlords podcast club and 4tk gaming store. Blogger @ http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/29 18:41:28
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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The Hive Mind
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I disagree. The intent (of the majority toughness rule) is to give the benefit of the not-being-wounded-as-much-as-possible to the target unit. In a 6+/2+ unit you should roll against the 6+ save just like a normal weapon would roll against the T6 of the Riptide.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/29 18:46:14
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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Most units don't have equal numbers o two toughnesses. It is usually a single upgrade character or Independant character with the unusually unique toughness. So the majority toughness rule is there to prevent a weak unit from being as resilient as the tough character more than to prevent the unit from taking wounds.
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Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/29 18:49:40
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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The Hive Mind
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And yet there's a specific line calling out equal numbers of different toughness in a unit.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/29 22:04:49
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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On the chance that it develops (usually through casualties or unusual situations like the combination of Riptide plus IC). The norm is many models with one toughness and only one or a handful of models with a different toughness.
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Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/29 22:08:52
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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rigeld2 wrote:I disagree. The intent (of the majority toughness rule) is to give the benefit of the not-being-wounded-as-much-as-possible to the target unit. In a 6+/2+ unit you should roll against the 6+ save just like a normal weapon would roll against the T6 of the Riptide.
Acutally Rigeld, now i have thought about you may be right. Higher toughness is harder to wound so worse armour save is harder to wound. At least thats logical.
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40kGlobal AOA member, regular of Overlords podcast club and 4tk gaming store. Blogger @ http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/
06/2013: 1st at War of the Roses ETC warm up.
08/213: 3rd place double teams at 4tk
09/2013: 7th place, best daemon and non eldar/tau army at Northern Warlords GT
10/2013: 3rd/4th at Battlefield Birmingham
11/2013: 5th at GT heat 3
11/2013: 5th COG 2k at 4tk
01/2014: 34th at Caledonian
03/2014: 3rd GT Final |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/29 22:22:56
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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rigeld2 wrote:I disagree. The intent (of the majority toughness rule) is to give the benefit of the not-being-wounded-as-much-as-possible to the target unit. In a 6+/2+ unit you should roll against the 6+ save just like a normal weapon would roll against the T6 of the Riptide.
I agree the intent of the majority toughness rule is to have the group use the best toughness, but the intent of the gravitation rule is to make the best armor the worst.
When dealing with evenly mixed statistics you should use the best statistic even in a situation where the best statistic will be the least effective.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/29 22:31:29
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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The Hive Mind
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If it's the least effective, how is it the best?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/30 06:23:37
Subject: Re:Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Because its only least effective against gravity guns, its the most effect against everything else. Armor values, like statistics, already have a sense of best and worst. Changing that around to fit the situation hampers the intent of rules like gravitation.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/30 12:18:33
Subject: Re:Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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The Hive Mind
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DJGietzen wrote:Because its only least effective against gravity guns, its the most effect against everything else. Armor values, like statistics, already have a sense of best and worst. Changing that around to fit the situation hampers the intent of rules like gravitation.
Effectiveness has to change depending on the situation. A hammer vs a crowbar - the hammer is most effective at putting nails in a wall, but least effective at prying open doors.
Edit: and the Intent I see is based on the majority toughness rule.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/30 12:19:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/30 13:01:49
Subject: Re:Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Abel
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Except... Grav Weapons don't work off the toughness of the model, they are a function of the armor save of the target. The issue is, what do you do when you shoot a Grave weapon at a squad of Space Marines led by an IC in Termy Armor? The closest model has a 2+ armor save, with the five other models in the unit have a 3+ armor save, and they all have the same toughness. If they are hit with five Grav weapon shots, what do you do? If you follow the wound allocation rules, you roll to wound against toughness 4, then you take armor saves starting with the closest model working further away until you run out armor saves, models, or wounds. The Grav weapon has different wound rules based on the armor save of the model.
What people are saying so far in this thread is to use the majority armor save of the unit in the same fashion as toughness for wound allocation. Except that gives the IC in Termy Armor a pretty big advantage over the other guys in the unit (harder to wound, and 'Look out, Sir!'). What do you do when faced with say, a Tau Etheral (T3 no Armor Save) with a Riptide (T6 2+)? If you use the Riptide 2+, that's unfair to the Etheral as he should not be affected by the Grav weapon. If you use the Etheral, then you just made the Riptide invulnerable to Grav Weapons.
This is a classic example of the lack of play testing or consideration for the rules every time GW introduces a new weapon into 40K. This is a rules conundrum that potentially breaks the game for certain units (Etheral/Riptide, Dark Eldar HQ with troops, Eldar Farseer joining any Eldar unit). It's also such a corner case that I bet we will never see an FAQ about it. GW will figure that the amount of players that would try to exploit this is statistically insignificant and if it is encountered, then the players should use "The Golden Rule" and dice off for it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/30 13:10:53
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Never Forget Isstvan!
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AS FAR as riptide + ethereal goes, HIWPI is you go againgst the riptide, since the size/mass of the riptide is obviously going to receive more hits than the small ethereal. But this does require using common sence instead of game rules.
RAW you would use the ethereal's save for wounding.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/30 13:35:31
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Dusty Skeleton
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The tie should always benefit the unit being shot.
In the case of gravity weapons, the tie would use the worse armor save (and the better toughness in regards to non-gravity weapons).
I'll see if I can find that line in the book that backs up that first sentence.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/30 13:37:48
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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scratch that. Usually it does benefit the unit being shot
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/30 13:38:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/30 13:47:55
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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The Hive Mind
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Nem wrote:
scratch that. Usually it does benefit the unit being shot
Is there an instance (outside grav guns since that's what we're discussing) that it doesn't?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/30 13:51:55
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Never Forget Isstvan!
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Now heres my thing........
I shoot some cents at a riptide + ethereal.
15 grav cannon rounds + 18 hurricane bolter shots.
I would flat out ask my opponent, which armor save are you using? 2+ so my grav rounds wound on 2, or 6+ so my bolter rounds ignore your armor as well?
You cant take the best save againgst both weapons.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/30 13:53:38
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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The Hive Mind
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Why not? Considering the 6+ is being used to wound and the 2+ is being used to roll saves, they're not comparable at all.
I get that you just want to be able to delete every unit off the table because you're a special snowflake, but your statement has no basis in rules.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/30 13:58:47
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Never Forget Isstvan!
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They are comparable.
Are you using your 6+ armor to make my grav guns wound on a 6, or using your 2+ armor to negate my bolters. YOU have the choice.
You cant use both armor saves (since nowhere are you given permission to use different saves from a single shooting attack) and since your dont have a majority save in the unit you get to pick.
Also the special snowflake comment was pretty unnessecary. Didnt really expect you to be throwing insults out so quickly.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/30 14:00:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/30 14:04:44
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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The Hive Mind
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One is a roll to wound. One is an armor save. How are they comparable again?
Are you using your 6+ armor to make my grav guns wound on a 6, or using your 2+ armor to negate my bolters. YOU have the choice.
No, actually, the rules never - ever - give you a choice of what armor save to use.
You cant use both armor saves (since nowhere are you given permission to use different saves from a single shooting attack) and since your dont have a majority save in the unit you get to pick.
You can absolutely use different saves from a single shooting attack - in fact you MUST if the armor saves are different.
Also the special snowflake comment was pretty unnessecary. Didnt really expect you to be throwing insults out so quickly.
Your post came across pretty inflammatory. I was responding in kind. You're making assumptions and statements with no basis in rules purely to gain an advantage.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/30 14:07:45
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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rigeld2 wrote:Why not? Considering the 6+ is being used to wound and the 2+ is being used to roll saves, they're not comparable at all.
I get that you just want to be able to delete every unit off the table because you're a special snowflake, but your statement has no basis in rules.
Nor does yours (and very petty too, might I add). If there is a weapon that makes better things bad and worse things better.... better is still a 2+ save and worse armor is still the 6+ save. Just because this particular weapon turns things on its head, doesn't give you the green light to apply things in an inverse manner. I don't see any intent with majority toughness or the like that says it must benefit the models involved, it simply says to take the highest and apply it in a tie. We all know what a higher armor save is in 40k (lower number) and while special snowflake players may want to pretend that flak armour is normally considered better than terminator armour, that's some serious intellectual dishonesty from poor players who can't handle a new weapon.... or maybe we should just stop painting with ignorant and broad strokes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/30 14:09:40
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Never Forget Isstvan!
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how exactly was my post inflammatory? Passionate mabey, but hardly inflammatory.
I get what your saying about the saves and to wound rolls being different now. You would still use the riptides armor of 2+ if it was the closest model in the unit, but because of majority toughness rule use the ethereals armor save to wound.
Well as above, better armor save is without a doubt the 2+ from the riptide so grav weapons still wound on a 2.
I just kinda get overexcited if i see somthing that isnt very fair when using the written rules.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/30 14:11:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/30 14:09:43
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Macclesfield, UK
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Eihnlazer wrote:Now heres my thing........
I shoot some cents at a riptide + ethereal.
15 grav cannon rounds + 18 hurricane bolter shots.
I would flat out ask my opponent, which armor save are you using? 2+ so my grav rounds wound on 2, or 6+ so my bolter rounds ignore your armor as well?
You cant take the best save againgst both weapons.
Not really the armour saves section says sepcifically that the closest model first takes the armour saves until they die. Barring any LOS rolls, if the closest model is the ethereal then he takes it, if the Riptide is the closest then he takes it. Of course if it is the ehtereal then he is going to LOS his wounds.
On another note it doesn't even need to be an etheral joining the unit. The drones alone have a different armour save of 4+ to the riptide. So a normal Riptide unit will cause all this commotion in a game as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eihnlazer wrote:They are comparable.
Are you using your 6+ armor to make my grav guns wound on a 6, or using your 2+ armor to negate my bolters. YOU have the choice.
You cant use both armor saves (since nowhere are you given permission to use different saves from a single shooting attack) and since your dont have a majority save in the unit you get to pick.
Also the special snowflake comment was pretty unnessecary. Didnt really expect you to be throwing insults out so quickly.
Thats not how it works I'm afraid. The rules are clear on who takes armour saves and those don't get circumnavigated just because you are unsure how to wound with your grav weapons. Closest model time after time takes the wound and uses its armour save with the exception of LOS.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/10/30 14:19:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/30 14:13:37
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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The Hive Mind
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Lobukia wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Why not? Considering the 6+ is being used to wound and the 2+ is being used to roll saves, they're not comparable at all.
I get that you just want to be able to delete every unit off the table because you're a special snowflake, but your statement has no basis in rules.
Nor does yours (and very petty too, might I add). If there is a weapon that makes better things bad and worse things better.... better is still a 2+ save and worse armor is still the 6+ save. Just because this particular weapon turns things on its head, doesn't give you the green light to apply things in an inverse manner. I don't see any intent with majority toughness or the like that says it must benefit the models involved, it simply says to take the highest and apply it in a tie. We all know what a higher armor save is in 40k (lower number) and while special snowflake players may want to pretend that flak armour is normally considered better than terminator armour, that's some serious intellectual dishonesty from poor players who can't handle a new weapon.... or maybe we should just stop painting with ignorant and broad strokes.
Actually mine does have a basis in rules. Using the majority Toughness rules you use the higher toughness if there's an equal amount of differing toughness. a 6+ save is higher than a 2+ save. Lower is better, not "higher".
p2 wrote:Unlike other characteristics, the lower an Armour Save is, the better.
So the 2+ is by definition lower than the 6+ and
p14 wrote:If two or more Toughness values are tied for majority, use the highest of these tied values.
Since we're taking "Toughness" and replacing it with "Armor Save" we use the highest of the two.
It's almost like actual rules (and not assumptions) matter.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/30 14:17:31
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Macclesfield, UK
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Lobukia wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Why not? Considering the 6+ is being used to wound and the 2+ is being used to roll saves, they're not comparable at all.
I get that you just want to be able to delete every unit off the table because you're a special snowflake, but your statement has no basis in rules.
Nor does yours (and very petty too, might I add). If there is a weapon that makes better things bad and worse things better.... better is still a 2+ save and worse armor is still the 6+ save. Just because this particular weapon turns things on its head, doesn't give you the green light to apply things in an inverse manner. I don't see any intent with majority toughness or the like that says it must benefit the models involved, it simply says to take the highest and apply it in a tie. We all know what a higher armor save is in 40k (lower number) and while special snowflake players may want to pretend that flak armour is normally considered better than terminator armour, that's some serious intellectual dishonesty from poor players who can't handle a new weapon.... or maybe we should just stop painting with ignorant and broad strokes.
Thats not what is being discussed. Rolling to wound and taking armour saves are two separate parts of the rules with each part having their own way to resolve things. That is all that is being pointed out. Just because a player may be using his ethereal to wound his unit on a 6+, then that doesn't mean that unit has to have a 6+ save when rolling for armour saves. You have to go by closest model.
This is the same for instant death, you may have wound a T4 unit on 2s with a Lacannon but if the model in front is T5 then you are not instant killing him in any way.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/30 14:17:34
Subject: Gravity Guns wounding Mixed Armour Units
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The Hive Mind
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Eihnlazer wrote:Well as above, better armor save is without a doubt the 2+ from the riptide so grav weapons still wound on a 2.
What do the Majority Toughness rules actually say - higher Toughness or better Toughness? Don't assume - look.
I just kinda get overexcited if i see somthing that isnt very fair when using the written rules.
Please explain how it's not "very fair". Because you suddenly wound on a 6+ and can't auto-delete a unit?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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