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its not fair because the high point cost im paying for the cents with grav guns is not so that you can tell me i only hurt you on 6's.


Your pretty worked up about that whole auto deleting a unit thing. You get burned recently in a game?

rigeld2 wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
Well as above, better armor save is without a doubt the 2+ from the riptide so grav weapons still wound on a 2.

What do the Majority Toughness rules actually say - higher Toughness or better Toughness? Don't assume - look.

I just kinda get overexcited if i see somthing that isnt very fair when using the written rules.

Please explain how it's not "very fair". Because you suddenly wound on a 6+ and can't auto-delete a unit?

It does say higher and not lower. So you are correct.

However the compromise being made here is because we don't really know how grav guns wound mixed saved units to begin with. We have a rule for majority toughness which is being applied in the instance of armour saves for this particular weapon. This really needs to be FAQ'd

I agree with you fully on your interpretation but I know that some others here are going to argue against you in terms of the way that this compromise should be made.

Eihnlazer wrote:
its not fair because the high point cost im paying for the cents with grav guns is not so that you can tell me i only hurt you on 6's.

Yeah, following the rules sucks sometimes. I don't think it's fair when I pay 4x the cost of a Necron Spyder for a Carnifex that is only slightly better.

Your pretty worked up about that whole auto deleting a unit thing. You get burned recently in a game?

No - the only game I've faced Centurions they killed two MCs before a Flyrant got them in CC and swept them.
I use the phrase because that's what you're attempting. You're not looking for a "fair" fight, you want to instantly kill whatever you shoot at. Using the actual rules there's no reason to assume that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
Well as above, better armor save is without a doubt the 2+ from the riptide so grav weapons still wound on a 2.

What do the Majority Toughness rules actually say - higher Toughness or better Toughness? Don't assume - look.

It does say higher and not lower. So you are correct.

However the compromise being made here is because we don't really know how grav guns wound mixed saved units to begin with. We have a rule for majority toughness which is being applied in the instance of armour saves for this particular weapon. This really needs to be FAQ'd

I agree with you fully on your interpretation but I know that some others here are going to argue against you in terms of the way that this compromise should be made.

Right - I've shown that there's a reasonable assumption that breaks no rules and follows how the rules have worked in the past (with Leadership wounding weapons for example).
Methods outside of that are usually biased or have no basis in current rules.

So now the argument comes down to whether a higher armor save is indeed the 6+ or the 2+.

Definition wise, higher is the 6 of course, but in context of the game its the 2+.

Definately sitting on the TO's shoulder on this then.


Also, im not sure why you think im any more on the side of wanting to be at advantage over the player who only wants me to wound on 6's with my 250pt unit. Obviously the advantage flows greatly either way so my side is not any more at fault than the other.

Eihnlazer wrote:
So now the argument comes down to whether a higher armor save is indeed the 6+ or the 2+.

Definition wise, higher is the 6 of course, but in context of the game its the 2+.

No, absolutely false. The 2+ is the better save. The 6+ save is absolutely the higher save. The rules say so - any ambiguity is being inserted by your bias.

Also, im not sure why you think im any more on the side of wanting to be at advantage over the player who only wants me to wound on 6's with my 250pt unit. Obviously the advantage flows greatly either way so my side is not any more at fault than the other.

Well, you obviously play Space Marines. I don't play Tau. One of us has a bias involved. I wonder which one it is...

rigeld2 wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:

It does say higher and not lower. So you are correct.

However the compromise being made here is because we don't really know how grav guns wound mixed saved units to begin with. We have a rule for majority toughness which is being applied in the instance of armour saves for this particular weapon. This really needs to be FAQ'd

I agree with you fully on your interpretation but I know that some others here are going to argue against you in terms of the way that this compromise should be made.

Right - I've shown that there's a reasonable assumption that breaks no rules and follows how the rules have worked in the past (with Leadership wounding weapons for example).
Methods outside of that are usually biased or have no basis in current rules.

It's certainly the way I would play it. The reason being is because if a unit with grav guns shot at my Riptide with two drones attached they would be wounding on 4s anyway, since majority armour save is 4+. It doesn't take much to create the situation he is arguing against as being unfair its just one more 25pt model on top of the unit as is.

For instance, Take O'Vesa. Now join him to a unit of Kroot. Oh well, your grav guns are wounding my Riptide on 6s now anyway and all I had to do was join him with some Kroot at 60pts for the unit. So saying that an etherail at 60pts does the same thing shouldn't be too much of a stretch.

whether i have bias towards it or not is irrelevent.

Higher can be either taken as a literal Higher number or as a better. It has context both ways.


Saying otherwise is acctually the biased argument.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Higher can be either taken as a literal Higher number or as a better. It has context both ways.

Citation required. You've said that this is in the context of the rules. Prove it.

Saying otherwise is acctually the biased argument.

That's laughable. Your bias is obvious and relevant. Please prove your arguments with citations. I have. Your turn.

Eihnlazer wrote:
So now the argument comes down to whether a higher armor save is indeed the 6+ or the 2+.

Definition wise, higher is the 6 of course, but in context of the game its the 2+.

Definately sitting on the TO's shoulder on this then.

The rulebook does say that lower armour saves are better armour saves. i.e. 2+ is lower than 6+

The rule for majority toughness states that you apply the highest one, not the lowest one.

If this rule is being used as a compromise to begin with then the rules are stating that the 6+ armour save is the highest armour save over the 2+ and thus should be used.

What you are doing is trying to manipulate the compromise to make it better in your favour and you need to understand that you just can't claim this and it needs to be discussed.

Also, im not sure why you think im any more on the side of wanting to be at advantage over the player who only wants me to wound on 6's with my 250pt unit. Obviously the advantage flows greatly either way so my side is not any more at fault than the other.

You do have AP2 as well, so any hits with those grav guns are ignoring any armour saves that the Riptide has. So in essence you want to wound the Riptide on 2s, ignoring his armour save, while doing this with 15 shots. Thus easily killing a 200 odd point unit (300pts in the case of R'Vana) in one go. At the same time you want to deny the Riptide player any opportunity to prevent this.

@rigeld... you're going to honestly tell me that you think a 6+ is a "higher" save than a 2+? Outside 40k, sure. In system, come on! You're better than that, and you're seriously damaging your credibility if you want to stand on that. I'd get the benefit the target argument just from a gamesmanship PoV, but not a reasonable RAW.

I'm not saying an FAQ doesn't come out ruling to benefit that weaker save, but without that ties go to the better armour, not the larger number, if you're making the assumption that it works as a characteristic test... which we don't even have permission to do right now.

@Darth
Until we get an FAQ, I see no better option than going with majority, but I'd give even odds that if we get a ruling it has us resolve them by models (like a save) instead of a test or to wound (like we should play it in the mean time).

Wouldn't it make the most sense to just do grav gun hits first one or two at a time until the terminator dude is killed then do the rest against the unit?

 Lobukia wrote:
@rigeld... you're going to honestly tell me that you think a 6+ is a "higher" save than a 2+? Outside 40k, sure. In system, come on! You're better than that, and you're seriously damaging your credibility if you want to stand on that. I'd get the benefit the target argument just from a gamesmanship PoV, but not a reasonable RAW.

I've proven that it's not just me saying the 6+ is higher than the 2+ - it's the actual rules. Perhaps you should read the citations? It's not just "reasonable" it's factual.

I'm not saying an FAQ doesn't come out ruling to benefit that weaker save, but without that ties go to the better armour, not the larger number, if you're making the assumption that it works as a characteristic test... which we don't even have permission to do right now.

If the Majority Toughness rules used the word "better" and not "higher" you'd have a point. Alas, they don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaptain Skullstompa wrote:
Wouldn't it make the most sense to just do grav gun hits first one or two at a time until the terminator dude is killed then do the rest against the unit?

With no precedent, no that doesn't make sense.

 Lobukia wrote:
@rigeld... you're going to honestly tell me that you think a 6+ is a "higher" save than a 2+? Outside 40k, sure. In system, come on! You're better than that, and you're seriously damaging your credibility if you want to stand on that. I'd get the benefit the target argument just from a gamesmanship PoV, but not a reasonable RAW.

Rigeld is 100% correct in this. Absolutely, 100% defined in the rules that the "higher" save is the 6+. Certainty.

 Lobukia wrote:
@rigeld... you're going to honestly tell me that you think a 6+ is a "higher" save than a 2+? Outside 40k, sure. In system, come on! You're better than that, and you're seriously damaging your credibility if you want to stand on that. I'd get the benefit the target argument just from a gamesmanship PoV, but not a reasonable RAW.

The rulebook states it and it has already been quoted. Page 2 states it.

Unlike other characteristics, the lower an Armour Save is, the better.

I'm not saying an FAQ doesn't come out ruling to benefit that weaker save, but without that ties go to the better armour, not the larger number, if you're making the assumption that it works as a characteristic test... which we don't even have permission to do right now.

If a compromise is being used to begin with because we don't have any RAW to solve this situation then it needs to be discussed. 6+ is indeed a higher armour save than 2+. The rule for majority toughness being used states higher, not better. So taking this rule and saying we will use majority armor saves for this but then wanting to further tweak it to change more language needs to be discussed. Like whats already been said, the player with the grav weapons wants to wound on 2s, ignoring armour with 15 shots, thus easily killing the Riptide in one go with little in the way of prevention.

If you're a GK player then you're going to take Draigo and stick him with some Paladins because in that way a S9 lascannon isn't causing ID if Draigo is taking the hit. It provides a sense of survivability for the unit.

With the Riptide its just the other way round. Instead of taking an expensive character to protect a cheaper unit, you are taking a cheap character to protect an expensive unit.

@Darth
Until we get an FAQ, I see no better option than going with majority, but I'd give even odds that if we get a ruling it has us resolve them by models (like a save) instead of a test or to wound (like we should play it in the mean time).

I agree that it needs to be FAQ'd. Its jsut not clear otherwise what to do.

IMO it is clear. You follow the precedent set by every other wounds-on-something-other-than-Toughness ability. Grav Guns aren't special in that case - they just wound on a new number.

Why is there so much resistance to this when, for example, the Necron Leadership Template no one really argued or got "passionate" about wounding on Majority Leadership?

rigeld2 wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
its not fair because the high point cost im paying for the cents with grav guns is not so that you can tell me i only hurt you on 6's.

Yeah, following the rules sucks sometimes. I don't think it's fair when I pay 4x the cost of a Necron Spyder for a Carnifex that is only slightly better.

Your pretty worked up about that whole auto deleting a unit thing. You get burned recently in a game?

No - the only game I've faced Centurions they killed two MCs before a Flyrant got them in CC and swept them.
I use the phrase because that's what you're attempting. You're not looking for a "fair" fight, you want to instantly kill whatever you shoot at. Using the actual rules there's no reason to assume that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
Well as above, better armor save is without a doubt the 2+ from the riptide so grav weapons still wound on a 2.

What do the Majority Toughness rules actually say - higher Toughness or better Toughness? Don't assume - look.

It does say higher and not lower. So you are correct.

However the compromise being made here is because we don't really know how grav guns wound mixed saved units to begin with. We have a rule for majority toughness which is being applied in the instance of armour saves for this particular weapon. This really needs to be FAQ'd

I agree with you fully on your interpretation but I know that some others here are going to argue against you in terms of the way that this compromise should be made.

Right - I've shown that there's a reasonable assumption that breaks no rules and follows how the rules have worked in the past (with Leadership wounding weapons for example).
Methods outside of that are usually biased or have no basis in current rules.

OT but since you mentioned this and you're the rules guru, how do you sweep a unit with ATSKNF?

 hyv3mynd wrote:
OT but since you mentioned this and you're the rules guru, how do you sweep a unit with ATSKNF?

Dang it, you beat me to it. I was just about to ask this.

Swept could just mean "swept them off the board"; it does not have to just refer to sweeping advance.

If you can edit a huge quote mass down when responding to just a very small point, it helps as well Took me ages to find the reference!

Yeah too much work on a phone

 Happyjew wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
OT but since you mentioned this and you're the rules guru, how do you sweep a unit with ATSKNF?

Dang it, you beat me to it. I was just about to ask this.

As nos said - Killed 1.5 of them with shooting (12 wounds (Flyrant and a nearby Fex) and he sucked at rolling 2+) and then killed the others in combat.
Sorry for confusing people.

Also to add, this is just the penalty for grav guns. They suck against shooting at cheap targets in general. Any unit with a 6+ save will need cents to roll 6s to wound them, so complaining about the target you're shooting at being difficult to wound because they are majority armour 6+ doesn't do any good.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Now heres my thing........

I shoot some cents at a riptide + ethereal.

15 grav cannon rounds + 18 hurricane bolter shots.

I would flat out ask my opponent, which armor save are you using? 2+ so my grav rounds wound on 2, or 6+ so my bolter rounds ignore your armor as well?

You cant take the best save againgst both weapons.

In this particular case, your best path to resolution is to split your shooting dice into two pools, one for the bolters, one for the gravgun. The target takes its normal 2+ armor save against the bolter, and the 6+ against the gravgun, because you always get to take the best Save in a situation where you get to make a Save, and in this case the best Save varies between the two different forms of attack.

Psienesis - I think you are unaware of what grav guns do - they wound a unit based on its armour save. They are AP2, so any wounds caused will allow no armour saves

Well anyway after thinking it over im currently sticking with this:

In a situation where there is no majority you go with the benefit of the unit getting shot. So yes sticking an ethereal with the riptide makes it a to wound roll of a 6.

I honestly just got caught up in the moment before and didnt take my time to think about it. Partially to do with the confrontational attitude tossed at me i admit.

Back to the topic at hand:

There are no rules written on what to do for mixed armor save units and grav guns. So you do either 1 of 2 things for it. Follow the presedence of mixed toughness values, or wound closest models one at a time.

Mixed toughness has more wieght to it, however since grav weapons act more like a dangerous terrain test towards vehicles than an actual shooting attack, wounding on a model per model basis is probably more accurate of what is intended.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Partially to do with the confrontational attitude tossed at me i admit.

Perhaps if you're less confrontational you'll think about the actual rules before you post?

Eihnlazer wrote:
its not fair because the high point cost im paying for the cents with grav guns is not so that you can tell me i only hurt you on 6's.

I pay a high point cost to take a stellar Dev Squad with all ML. Now you're telling me that I can only hurt your LR on 6's?!?! How is that fair??

Sarcasm aside, some weapons are ineffective against some models/units. Deal with it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Psienesis - I think you are unaware of what grav guns do - they wound a unit based on its armour save. They are AP2, so any wounds caused will allow no armour saves

I'm quite aware of what grav-guns do. Their effectiveness is based on the armor save of the target, and targets with heavier armor (that is, the better armor saves) are at higher risk from the weapon than your guys in t-shirts. What I'm suggesting is, regardless of the AP of the weapon, if you're firing two different classes of weapons (in this case hurricane bolter and gravgun) against a unit with two different armor values, you're in a special circumstance that is going to need some special use of rules. On the one hand, you've got a massive, heavily armored walking tank, and a scrawny little fish-prophet on the other. Against the hurricane bolter, the Riptide's heavy armor is an advantage, and the Ethereal's squishy nature is not. Against the Gravgun, the reverse is true. At the end of the day, with this much fire incoming, you're probably going to lose both the Riptide and the Ethereal, but in rolling them out, you have a 2-model unit that ends up having 2 different saves against 2 different shooting attacks. It makes the most consistent sense, in these situations, to resolve the gravgun attacks separately from any other shooting attacks that are resolved under standard Armor Save rules.

Replace Grav Cannons with Plasma Cannons in your example. Why is that different? You'd use two different saves (invul and armor) in that case and yet I'd bet you don't advocate for treating them differently.

In that situation, which save is better for the unit in question? We're already told that a unit gets its best save for the function, and as plasma guns and hurricane bolters are both tested against either its Armor Save or its Invuln Save, straight across the board, then you choose the better of the two.

Where the GravGun gets complicated is that it works "in reverse" of most any other shooting weapon, in that it is more effective/more dangerous against targets with better Armor Saves than those that do not.

 Psienesis wrote:
Where the GravGun gets complicated is that it works "in reverse" of most any other shooting weapon, in that it is more effective/more dangerous against targets with better Armor Saves than those that do not.

The GravGun is no more complicated than any other wound-on-something-other-than-toughness mechanic. People are inventing new ways of trying to deal with this when the rules pretty much already do.