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Hey all, I am on a local team here in Great Falls that is trying to establish and legitimize the local 40k tourney scene. We have a long term goal of getting this tourney to the standards of NOVA, BAO, Da boyz etc... Great Falls stood up a great little convention in 2012 that hosts a relatively undeveloped 40k tourney. This past month the convention had IIRC, 200+ attendees. I am hoping to get at least twenty 40k players for the tourney next year with first prize winnings of $250 (The more players we get the larger the prize will be, I am hoping to offer $400 for first place if we get 30 players, so keep your eyes open for a link to register if you can make it to Montana

Specifically I would love to have input/tips/advice from the esteemed T.O's here on Dakka on this topic so I hope you guys don't mind giving it.

To the point of this post.

I have never seen a tourney that tried to balance the allies and I think I may have come up with a fair solution. In that I would like to have a total point value for the tourney of 2000 points. I have seen A LOT of lists that take allies simply to gain access to one unit paying the minimum points possible to access it. Be it min bikes with farseer, min fire warriors/kroot for buffmander and riptide, etc... I purpose that any list that takes allies must take minimum of 750 points from that codex. Ergo, if that tau player really wants that farseer, he must take 650 points of elder with him/her

I feel I should qualify this by saying I honestly have no problem with competitive or cutthroat lists. I just see so much of the same thing in competitive lists and I think this will open up the list variance a bit more; It forces people to look a bit deeper into their allies choice and, hopefully, will make for more entertaining lists and a broader expe rience range for each player.

So what do you all think Dakkajacks and jills? Yes? No? Maybe? Suggestions? Let me have it,

Stay Classy Dakka

I think that is a perfectly fine idea. The general rule of comp is that if you are using comp at an event, it needs to be published well ahead of time so people can adjust.

The only issue I see is leaving out dual force org charts. Personally I feel, after a bit of thinking the same restriction should apply there aswell. Namely, if you take dual force org, the second detachment must be atleast 750 points. Thoughts?

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
The only issue I see is leaving out dual force org charts. Personally I feel, after a bit of thinking the same restriction should apply there aswell. Namely, if you take dual force org, the second detachment must be atleast 750 points. Thoughts?

An almost pointless restriction. After an HQ and 2 troops needed to unlock the second detachment, you are almost there. Second force org really isn't the problem in my eyes. Most of the time if you try to stack 6 of one of the extra slots your army is going to end up gimped in some fashion due to a lack of answers to various threats that an opponent can present.

Honestly the only comp that has seemed to create a better game is some of the comps that come out of Europe.

None of the american comp systems have gone in depth to try to find out what kind of armies come out of them, they just impose restrictions based on what they think will produce a better game, most of the time it wont.

Most comp systems people think up on the fly without significant testing have very easy ways to get around and still make lists that don't suffer / aren't new.

For Example

750 ally restrictions allow for
Necron allies that are full competative destroyer lord, scythes, wraiths, barge
Full competative eldar allies, you just add wave serpents, knights, and warp spiders to get to 750.
Dark eldar full competative for seer council, baron, 3x venoms 2 troops and blasterborn, ravager
GK full competative allies, storm raven coteaz and henchment are already 400 points
Tau full competative riptide buffmander kroot and broadsides.
CSM full competative, daemon prince mace ML 3, Helldrake, oblis, cultists

Really that limitation isn't going to change anything about the meta just restrict adding small squads and psykers into armies, some that need them (I.G., C:SM, and the other one that doesn't, tau)


I would go investigate the Swiss comp system, i.e. the one from switzerland, from what I've head it is very restrictive and it creates and entirely differnt meta but they have put time and effort into creating a different balanced game out of the comp rules. You might be able to start finding out more about it at frontline.


But in gerernal I would say if you don't absolutely know everything about every army and the competative lists your denying and or encouraging by adding comp restrictions than your not going to get a better result than if you just left it alone and allowed all of the normal armies that are all over the net and well known.

Right now depending on how big the tournament is there are some very easy ways to influence the meta, make condemnor bolt guns affect entire units, this will make it so that if either of the psyker stars face sisters it is almost an auto loss.

More imporantly terrain, if your using set terrain, you can drastically effect the outcome of a game, Mass LoS blocking terrain can wreak havoc on tau, eldar, and dark eldar tourney lists while promoting armies that have brought CC units.1-2 good CC units can table wave serpent spam, tau (the entire codex) and venom spam.

Ok, well new news is new XD 2500 points with min ally investment of 1000 points. It's also worth noting that terrain is going to be extremely important here. Each table is going to have two large LOS blocking pieces, with a minimum total terrain coverage of 30% of the field not including the two. So ya, players will be able to expect an exploitable field of battle

As for swiss comp I am completely unaware what that is but I will look into it. As I said tho, its more to force a heavier investment into allies than to prevent supposed "god builds." I don't mind screamer councils, but if you take the min dark eldar just to get sliscus into your seer council, your gonna have to change that and make a larger showing of the dark kin! That is the main goal

You mean the Baron?

Most seer council players know that the dark eldar are actually a very imporant part to the build, you need the venoms/tanks with grisly trophies to reroll psychic tests on the warlocks.

2500 points is alot, so is a 1000 point limit.

If its 1000 points of total allies in 2 detachments its actually fairly easy to make allies lists still in all their forms, if its 1000 points of allies in a single detachment...... not sure alot of them can actually pull this off.


Again though you really have to look at what your limiting and what your benifiting in terms of putting that limit in.

A 2500 point double force double ally tournament allows for hyper cheesy lists. 4 Farseers with either multiple seer councils or seer council and beastpack become viable.
Then again necron spam becomes so much easier at these points 6 AB, 8 Scythes 2-4 destoryer lords with wraiths that it becomes pretty silly.

Really Im not going to try to rain on anybodies parade but personally i wouldn't want to attend a 2500 point tournament, not only will the rounds be terribly long to complete, but there is just too much room for people to out buy you, what I mean by that is that they have optimized 2500 points which is not something normally done due to you wasting money on things like annihilation barge 4 5 and 6, Storm raven 5 6 7 and 8, riptide 4 5 6, wriathknight 4 5 6, ect ect. So unless you have an optimized 2500 point tournament army its not going to be as fun as something that you do have optimized.

@ tiber55: Yes, I meant Baron S, not Duke. I am aware that most people who play seer council (the skilled ones atleast) take plenty of dark elder in their list for the cost effective shooting. Yes 2500 points is a lot. But when the tourney comes (if this is the points level) the tourney will likely be played over two days, and if 'Ard boyz could do a full 20 man tourney at 2500 points in one day, it must be doable.

List format will be one of the following per list: One primary with one allies detachment, One primary detachment or Dual Force Organization.

There won't be any other list structures accepted. Along with downloadable scenarios, Tourney Standards and FAQ's, there will be an Electronic List Format sheet with which, an attendee will submit (via email) his/her list for review. This may then be printed out for dispensation to opponents.

Just remember Tiber, my whole goal was not to prevent seer-councils, screamer-councils, serpent spam or any other. It was to force folks to invest in their allies if they take them. I know allies are popular and I just don't want to see minimum investments in allies to get access to one piece of war gear, or one Special character etc...

of punitive action for people who want to take absolutely curbstompy lists as no matter the comp type, I have seen that people can and will build the best list they can, with the best possible comp. It's the nature of competitive sport. You don't let me play in your basketball game, when M Jordan is sitting on the bench itching to score you points.

As to swiss paring.... I am not to convinced of its necessity, or if I even prefer it. It does force people to use models they may not like if they don't want to get keel hulled in comp. I would rather people bring their list, one they like, and play it. If you cant, or refuse to build an efficient list, that is on you and, like any other sport, you win or lose the tourney on your own merit. Step up your game if you want to win. If you just want to come enjoy a growing Convention with a top notch tourney, being played by great folks in a friendly environment we would still love to have you, who knows you may have some hot dice and place! (Point of note, Eldar only get one seer council per primary detachment, Unless of course you play Iyanden aswell > and you take ten spirit seers BWAHAHAH.... I would never -.-)

To you specifically, I would hope you would still play if it were possible. You may be surprised

imagine what a list would be like with over 1200 points spent on 6 models... could be devastating to some, but will get brutalized by our local nid player.. fast poison EVERYWHERE!!!

Oh and: " Im not going to try to rain on anybodies parade" I say "let the rain clouds come... for we shall play in the shade"

tiber55 wrote:
Honestly the only comp that has seemed to create a better game is some of the comps that come out of Europe.

I see this sort of comment fairly frequently... can someone please name some of the euro comp so I can go see what all the fuss is about?