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 ClockworkZion wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I think that's a poor argument when you're talking about a tournament.

Not that I think "player knowledge" is a good one - I just think yours is worse.

I've seen it at tournaments too. I'm speaking anecdotally, I know but the community has a lot of people who just don't really take the time to learn the rules, much less the rules of other books.

Is it possibly a weak arguement? Sure. But it's no weaker than player knowledge being argued as a reason to keep things out. If that was the case everyone should just play C:SM and nothing else to prevent unfamiliar rules from being used.

You misunderstand...I'm not arguing that people don't know what everything does. I'm arguing that due to the formant to the IA books people don't even know where to look for the most up to date rules. Lets say someone brings a unit in IA 4 that has since been updated in IA:Apoc or something. How does their opponent know that the rules they are using are even current? TO me that is the largest problem. The fact that FW prints and reprints units and army lists multiple times and it is tons of work to keep straight what is current. Unless the TO in addtion to checking lists is checking books at the door and cross checking them with lists....it just does not work well. But that is just my opinion. And as a TO I don't see a reason (given polls of my player base) to put in the extra effort and money to keep all of it straight.

Breng77 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I think that's a poor argument when you're talking about a tournament.

Not that I think "player knowledge" is a good one - I just think yours is worse.

I've seen it at tournaments too. I'm speaking anecdotally, I know but the community has a lot of people who just don't really take the time to learn the rules, much less the rules of other books.

Is it possibly a weak arguement? Sure. But it's no weaker than player knowledge being argued as a reason to keep things out. If that was the case everyone should just play C:SM and nothing else to prevent unfamiliar rules from being used.

You misunderstand...I'm not arguing that people don't know what everything does. I'm arguing that due to the formant to the IA books people don't even know where to look for the most up to date rules. Lets say someone brings a unit in IA 4 that has since been updated in IA:Apoc or something. How does their opponent know that the rules they are using are even current? TO me that is the largest problem. The fact that FW prints and reprints units and army lists multiple times and it is tons of work to keep straight what is current. Unless the TO in addtion to checking lists is checking books at the door and cross checking them with lists....it just does not work well. But that is just my opinion. And as a TO I don't see a reason (given polls of my player base) to put in the extra effort and money to keep all of it straight.

Well there is emailing to confirm rules are current.

Beyond that FW is working on an index to make it easier to keep track of this info.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should clarify, there is players emailing FW to show that the rules are current and then bringing a copy of the email with them as a confirmation tool.

Just a thought anyways.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Beyond that FW is working on an index to make it easier to keep track of this info.

I'll believe that when I see it.

frankr wrote:

thanatos67 wrote:
Can I /we get a list from someone, likely Reece or Doug, of the current books that contain forgeworld units I'd have to get to have a comprehensive knowledge of how the game operates with full forgeworld inclusion?

I've been working on something for myself that shows the current rules for each unit.
notes: I don't have IA:1 2nd edition yet; so the information regarding those units is currently 2nd hand, and this is a work in progress so their may still be mistakes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmGqXwQJt90_dFpoVm4zbWxfLS1qZEVBbmRKalJCVEE&usp=drive_web#gid=0

FW Units are on the first tab
FW army list locations are on the second tab

This is awesome! Thanks so much for posting it. I will have to spend some time and look through this and see what I have missed myself.

@thanatos67 - The game doesn't change as much as some people let on. Even at large GTs you will only see a Player running 1 or maybe 2 FW Units and thats about 1 in 5 players that even bring FW. I do tend to go a bit heavier than most with about 3-4 FW Units at 1850. My 2k list had 5 and that's out of 18 Units Total so just over a quarter. Now those numbers are for the FW Unit rules, about 90+ % of my Army is made up of FW models. I'm running my Death KORP as normal Codex IG. I have plans to make this a100%, but I need a couple more birthdays and a Christmas to do that.

If you need any more help feel free to IM me.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Beyond that FW is working on an index to make it easier to keep track of this info.

I'll believe that when I see it.

Just emailed them half an hour ago and they already responded:

Hi [Zion],

Thank you for your email. We hope to have the Rules Index pdf available soon though it is still being worked on. As we are releasing Imperial Armour 2, Second Edition very soon we will have to ensure it has been properly updated before we make the Index available.


If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.

Regards,
Forge World

So there we go, it looks like it'll be out after IA2 is released.

 RiTides wrote:
Nice post, Reecius! Thanks for the super thoughtful reply, I really appreciate it. Will check out that data, too (although later as I'm heading to work).

Still need to know what you two are up to in China, though!

Looking forward to hopefully seeing you guys at AdeptiCon . I actually saw you both there in 2012 but chickened out from saying hi. I told the same thing to Hulksmash, but I'm going to try to make sure to meet everyone this time . If I am able to attend a second Con in 2014 I will definitely consider your events, as my wife sometimes gets sent to the west coast for conferences and I go with her but have free time.

Oh! Need and want are 2 very different things. I want everyone to play with all the rules and without any restriction. I need to get surgery on my neck eventually that has an uncomfortably high risk of paralyses and fatalities. See the difference?

We will be announcing something real soon to let folks know what we have been up to so stay tuned.

Chickened out!? What the heck for? We are just two goofball gaming Nerds is all. Life is short buddy so next time you should just come over and say hello. I know Hulksmash as well, we are not BFFs....yet!.... but he is a pretty cool guy as well.

Am I reading that listing correctly that some FW units are only available in out of print FW books?

That seems to be a fairly large issue if current units are in rulebooks that are no longer available.

Breng77 wrote:
Am I reading that listing correctly that some FW units are only available in out of print FW books?

That seems to be a fairly large issue if current units are in rulebooks that are no longer available.

I don't think that is true for 40k Approved but don't quote me on that..

 ClockworkZion wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Beyond that FW is working on an index to make it easier to keep track of this info.

I'll believe that when I see it.

Just emailed them half an hour ago and they already responded:
<snip>
So there we go, it looks like it'll be out after IA2 is released.

I don't doubt that they say that. But they've been working on it for ... how long now? I remember when 6th released someone emailing them that same question and getting a similar answer.
The fact that it's taking longer than a day should be embarrassing.

Breng77 wrote:
Am I reading that listing correctly that some FW units are only available in out of print FW books?

That seems to be a fairly large issue if current units are in rulebooks that are no longer available.

Yea, that is the case: "Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2nd Edition" is no longer in print.... then to confuse matters they released: "Imperial Armour Apocalypse".
Love the consistency in the naming.

The units in question are:

Land Raider Achilles
Siege Dreadnought
Grot Bomm Launcha
Grot Tank Battle Mob
Warkopta
Meiotic Spire
Stone-Crusher Carnifex

rigeld2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Beyond that FW is working on an index to make it easier to keep track of this info.

I'll believe that when I see it.

Just emailed them half an hour ago and they already responded:
<snip>
So there we go, it looks like it'll be out after IA2 is released.

I don't doubt that they say that. But they've been working on it for ... how long now? I remember when 6th released someone emailing them that same question and getting a similar answer.
The fact that it's taking longer than a day should be embarrassing.

It's a team of like, what, 20 people? Ease up a bit there.

The release is delayed because of a new book and they want it right before they put it out instead of putting it out then editing it a week later.

 Dugg wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Am I reading that listing correctly that some FW units are only available in out of print FW books?

That seems to be a fairly large issue if current units are in rulebooks that are no longer available.

I don't think that is true for 40k Approved but don't quote me on that..

sadly it is.

.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It's a team of like, what, 20 people? Ease up a bit there.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist, sculptor, rules author, etc. to do this - just an intern filling out a spreadsheet.

The release is delayed because of a new book and they want it right before they put it out instead of putting it out then editing it a week later.

And why has it taken this long in the first place? That's my point. They've said they're working on one before. Tieing it to this book is silly.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It's a team of like, what, 20 people? Ease up a bit there.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist, sculptor, rules author, etc. to do this - just an intern filling out a spreadsheet.

Since when does GW, much less FW, have interns?

rigeld2 wrote:

The release is delayed because of a new book and they want it right before they put it out instead of putting it out then editing it a week later.

And why has it taken this long in the first place? That's my point. They've said they're working on one before. Tieing it to this book is silly.

I don't know. I do know that gak happens though and I'm not going to assign any blame on this without knowing why. We can assume a lot of things, but without knowing all the facts all we're doing is assuming things, and when we do that we're usually wrong anyways.

Regardless of the reason, such a list still does not exist, and what's worse, may not be kept current by FW if it is ever released (AdeptiCon put out theirs, of course, but it was quickly out of date with new releases). Something like this would have to be maintained.

frankr wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Am I reading that listing correctly that some FW units are only available in out of print FW books?

That seems to be a fairly large issue if current units are in rulebooks that are no longer available.

Yea, that is the case: "Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2nd Edition" is no longer in print.... then to confuse matters they released: "Imperial Armour Apocalypse".
Love the consistency in the naming.

The units in question are:

Land Raider Achilles
Siege Dreadnought
Grot Bomm Launcha
Grot Tank Battle Mob
Warkopta
Meiotic Spire
Stone-Crusher Carnifex

This is of concern to me if they are letting units go into out of print books. Now maybe they update them elsewhere but.....As for consistency in naming I wish they would only release units in books like the APOC or Aeronautica books. And then update those units in subsequent updates of those same books. Having units updated in various different books is confusing. (or just update the units in respective IA books and not in different IA books.)

I am starting to think about getting off of the FW bus. I hate these new lists I'm seeing like Ultramarines allying with Red Scorpions so they can have Tiggy and Loth in the same list. The disregard for background to power game is disheartening. If FW is allowed in an event there should be restrictions... Which honestly I don't think most TOs want to bother.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I am starting to think about getting off of the FW bus. I hate these new lists I'm seeing like Ultramarines allying with Red Scorpions so they can have Tiggy and Loth in the same list. The disregard for background to power game is disheartening. If FW is allowed in an event there should be restrictions... Which honestly I don't think most TOs want to bother.

Almost like Tau allying with the Farsight Enclaves, or Space Wolves being battle brothers with the Inquisition, or Black Templars and Eldar rolling heavy together like it's no biggy. Arguing that allowing Forgeworld allows for broken ally combinations is irrelevant since you don't need Forgeworld to see broken and completely fluff-less combinations.

No it is totally relevant. You should not be allowed to cherry pick... It's nonsense.

Breng77 wrote:

This is of concern to me if they are letting units go into out of print books. Now maybe they update them elsewhere but.....As for consistency in naming I wish they would only release units in books like the APOC or Aeronautica books. And then update those units in subsequent updates of those same books. Having units updated in various different books is confusing. (or just update the units in respective IA books and not in different IA books.)

Oddly I just received an response from Forge World on these units, I've updated the Index accordingly. Two have rules that are still out of print, but they will be in the 2nd Edition of IA 2.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
No it is totally relevant. You should not be allowed to cherry pick... It's nonsense.

Why wouldn't the same apply to the other aforementioned silly allies combo's? It seems really the bigger issue is allies more than anything else.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I am starting to think about getting off of the FW bus. I hate these new lists I'm seeing like Ultramarines allying with Red Scorpions so they can have Tiggy and Loth in the same list. The disregard for background to power game is disheartening. If FW is allowed in an event there should be restrictions... Which honestly I don't think most TOs want to bother.

What is the fluff reason that Red Scorpions and Ultramarines shouldn't ally?

I think bigger issues are presented by things like randomly allowing non-battle brothers to battle brother by virtue of FW additions (i.e., SM w/ SOB).

I don't know, even in this last page it's a dizzying whirlwind of "what the hell is or isn't legal and how does it all work?! Wait THAT SM guy can do what and this one is ... wait how are they battle brothers with AS ... wait hold on and now the tacs have FNP? WHAT IS GOING ON?!"

It's like fifteen supplemental chapter digital codices were released for Codex: SM all at once, each with its own arcane rules and spec chars. It's bad enough trying to track a new supplemental digital every month, much less trying to track mass updates and mass levels of outdated lists and duplicate rules and yada yada yada.

There's nothing unofficial about FW; but simultaneously saying it's the same level of complexity and balance and normality as even the digital dexes is a big stretch, and it's around that complication that most TOs find their issues ... not around what's ok for standard games (we're in the tournament forum here, folks), or what is "official," but around what's feasible and practical for a TO to try and figure out, address, FAQ, balance mission tweaks for, etc., and that's not even getting into what's reasonable for a player/attendee base.

This is WHY you often find people pushing FW legality to their non-GT events, and why you see more acceptance of 0-1 type restrictions (which by nature limit the amount of experiences akin to "where the hell did that come from again?!").

MVB summed it up quite well.

@RiTides

Dude, totally come up and say hi, both Dugg and I are very friendly. I am hard to miss too, usually laughing very loudly, typically beer in hand! Hope to make your acquaintance this year!

@Thread

The game is so incredibly complex now, Digital codecies are going to cause a lot of problems for tournaments as some folks will have out of date rules having missed updates, etc. Plus, a lot of people won't have read them due to only being available digitally but that doesn't mean we won't allow them.

I think a big part of the game now is going to be looking at what the other person has on hand at the table and being able to adapt on the fly.

Even people who do this for their living (like us here at Frontline) can't keep up with it all. We actually play test everything as it comes out at least once, too and we still get caught off guard by stuff, or forget rules for units in the basic rule books. It is a strawman argument to say anyone is going to come to the table knowing what everything does.

I think adaptability and adjusting tactics on the fly to play around what every crazy combination of rules your opponent happens to have that game is going to be the hallmark of the good player.

Reese the difference is at least if you bring a tau codex/ supplement I know that you have the most recent copy of the rules for said unit. This is not true for FW unless I know where the rules for each unit are found. So if we accept that people don't know all the rules isn't it also reasonable to accept that people (even hose playing said unit) won't know if they are playing with the right rules...something far less likely with the supplements as few contain units and fewer still contain new units.

Tournaments, Reece, aren't about the good players. If you're building and thinking on them with a mind toward "well good players can adjust," you're missing the motivator behind concern about even more complication and difficult rules to follow. It's the average player already starting to get overwhelmed being suddenly shellacked with even more. Of course better players will adjust better. Seriously, players like you and I with GT wins and massive egos are the last people we should be catering to as TOs :-P

I dunno, my first GT I went to was the first BAO. It never really bothered me. Other than the Battle for Salvation I just recently went to since I moved, every GT I've been to has been run by them, with forgeworld included. Even the newer guys that I have played against, and when I was new to the scene, never really had a problem. Shock and awe was a factor, such as "I've never seen that" and such.

In reality, other than Dugg's hobby-killer, most people bring 1-2 contemptors or a couple sabres as their forgeworld supplements. I've seen one or two breaching drills total, so it's not like people are filling up on all the forgeworld they can in the BAO format.

I'd be surprised if those books contained all the current FW units that can be used....furthermore here is the thing about the cost. SO you say those books above cost $300+ dollars, which is no more than buying 3 wraithknights....but if I want to know what is in them and still run 3 wraithknights now I have bought 6 wraithknights.....and actually the cost of books rationale is getting stronger and stronger not the opposite. IF as a TO I am already spending $50 per books for 14 core codices + $25+ for all the supplements, and now I'm adding another $50+ for each IA book....The argument of well you are already spending a bunch of money so what is a few hundred more dollars is a weak one at best. Same with the FW is no more broken than the game already....adding broken to broken does not a good game make. That is not even a relavant argument.

.

Fair point, I'd say something like 'I'd buy 6 wraithknights' but that just sounds elitist. And probably untrue...and begging to be harmed by my wife?

It is a shame that theres alot of rules that exist in out of print books. That actually is pretty good support for the 'knowledge gap' arguement against forgeworld.

@Dugg-I agree with your stance that its probably not as bad as it is made out to be by some. Whats this hobby killer list? How does it stack up vs screamerstar/jetseer? Or the ovesastar? I came up with this today while thinking of viable/broken forgeworld, and its not even mostly forgeworld:

marine/tau
Calgar in termy armor
bike master for ultramarines with shield eternal and pfist
buffmander
r'varna with 2 drones

So presuming the r'varna stays in this form for its approved use thatd be pretty hard to kill as a single unit, and can dish 6 high strength low ap shots from virtually unlimited range turn 1 with twinlinked, ignore cover, and your choice of tank or MC hunter. it was ~1000 pts with the drones and fnp and target lock on the varna. You can do a lesser version for about 100 pts less with just an iontide, but with the cluster weapons its hard to pass that nasty pile of anger up.

thanatos67 wrote:

I'd be surprised if those books contained all the current FW units that can be used....furthermore here is the thing about the cost. SO you say those books above cost $300+ dollars, which is no more than buying 3 wraithknights....but if I want to know what is in them and still run 3 wraithknights now I have bought 6 wraithknights.....and actually the cost of books rationale is getting stronger and stronger not the opposite. IF as a TO I am already spending $50 per books for 14 core codices + $25+ for all the supplements, and now I'm adding another $50+ for each IA book....The argument of well you are already spending a bunch of money so what is a few hundred more dollars is a weak one at best. Same with the FW is no more broken than the game already....adding broken to broken does not a good game make. That is not even a relavant argument.

.

Fair point, I'd say something like 'I'd buy 6 wraithknights' but that just sounds elitist. And probably untrue...and begging to be harmed by my wife?

It is a shame that theres alot of rules that exist in out of print books. That actually is pretty good support for the 'knowledge gap' arguement against forgeworld.

@Dugg-I agree with your stance that its probably not as bad as it is made out to be by some. Whats this hobby killer list? How does it stack up vs screamerstar/jetseer? Or the ovesastar? I came up with this today while thinking of viable/broken forgeworld, and its not even mostly forgeworld:

marine/tau
Calgar in termy armor
bike master for ultramarines with shield eternal and pfist
buffmander
r'varna with 2 drones

So presuming the r'varna stays in this form for its approved use thatd be pretty hard to kill as a single unit, and can dish 6 high strength low ap shots from virtually unlimited range turn 1 with twinlinked, ignore cover, and your choice of tank or MC hunter. it was ~1000 pts with the drones and fnp and target lock on the varna. You can do a lesser version for about 100 pts less with just an iontide, but with the cluster weapons its hard to pass that nasty pile of anger up.

I would most likely drop that Unit in a round of shooting, using 3 of my Units. A combo of Jaws first, some Str 10 Large Blasts and cleaned up with a following a hail of Str 9 AP fire.

"HobbyKiller - The Destroyer of Dreams" is DKoK themed Codex IG with Heavy Artillery and SW Allies. All the stats are pretty simple to get T7 when shot at T3 when assaulted, normal Medusua or Earthshaker pie plates, no Thudds as of yet, and they can't move. Throw in a Vulture to spice things up and there you go. I might actually drop the Vulture for some new tweaks for LVO.

I actually named this list "My bad back List" due to the fact that I am a broken old War Vet and don't have to move horde Orks across a table for 3 days worth of gaming, this was actually the biggest factor for me making an artillery list, but my buddy Renamed it for me. I think HobbyKiller has a better ring to it. Even tho people that don't know me might take it the wrong way I don't mind the teasing.