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Why does it have to be either or? I paint my own but when the KOW KS stuff arrived (2k of undead) I didn't fancy it as my first project after returning to wargaming after 10+ years. I shifted it of to revenant minatures and got on with sometihng more managable, now I have two KOW arimes painted one of which is to a far higher standard than I or the OP would have done it to.

Everyone has time to paint, and I mean that literally.

When people say they lack the time to paint what they actually mean is that they lack the motivation.

 Palindrome wrote:
Everyone has time to paint, and I mean that literally.

When people say they lack the time to paint what they actually mean is that they lack the motivation.

No. It means they lack the time *to paint*. Sure we all have 24 hours every day. But by the time you have subtracted sleeping, eating, working, spending time with the significant other and/or the kids, there can be pretty little left to spend on a task as monumentally trivial and unimportant in the grand scheme of things as painting man-dollies.

This week due to kids sporting events and evening meetings for organizations I am involved with, I have had NO time (I'm typing this as I eat my sandwiches for lunch.) I have loads of motivation. I love painting character models. I haven't been able to find the time this week to do it though as I haven't had any free time before 10pm every single night this week (and the last 2 to be honest). By that time of night (given I get up on the dot of 7 every day, including Saturdays, although I do get a lie in til 8 on Sundays) I couldn't paint worth a doozy. All I'm fit for is flaking out in front of the tv.

Sure it is all priorities. But priorities =/= motivation. I *could* tell my kids I am not taking them to football because Daddy wants to paint toy soldiers. That would be a reordering of my priorities that would get my painting workload finished. But I can't see that happening, can you?

Having priorities means that for some people they don't get a lot of time to focus on activities that only benefit themselves because they choose to prioritize their spare time on activities that benefit others - their families, the community, whatever. Doesn't mean they don't "really want" that nicely painted army. But they sublimate those "wants" instead choosing to give time to projects and activities that meets other "needs".

So writing off people who choose not to devote their time to paint toy soldiers as being "unmotivated" may be true for some, but it is a gross generalization and largely unfair to many.

FinnSeer wrote:
I have noticed that there is a trend forming in the community where plenty of people buy their figures pre-painted or commission the painting for someone else.

Personally I don't understand this at all.

I wouldn't have the same connection at all to the miniatures that I have not painted myself. I have never sold any "extra" figures that I have which are painted beyond priming. I also would not buy any miniature that has been already painted and then use it on a game.

Huge part of my hobby consists of building and converting miniatures and then painting them and at the same time I learn and master skills needed to accomplish these tasks. Sometimes I might sat on my work desk for a long time just trying to find out what the next miniature is going to look and what am I trying to tell with that particular miniature. After these are clear the task of actual conversion work will begin and the feeling can't be described with anything else than having a flow moment where everything is perfectly clear and you intuitively know what to do next like as someone would be guiding your hands.

Even at this stage the miniature starts having a personality. His or hers tilt of the head and position of the legs shows confidence or fear, the way of how the gun is kept shows the amount of training and battles fought before.

Painting adds even more life to the miniature. Is he a strict follower of rules and keeps his gear at prime condition or does he let things that do not affect the performance get dirty.

If I let someone do that instead of myself, I would lose a lot of the fun and what the hobby means for me.

I am not saying that my way would be the only way to be able to enjoy the hobby and instead I would like to understand what do you get by commsissioning you army to be painted by someone else?

No, your logic is flawed. Painting is fun for YOU. Its what the hobby means to YOU. Not everyone.

Everyone approaches the hobby for different reasons. YOU might think painting is part of the hobby, but others do not. For them it could be just building. Or playing. Or painting. Or all three. Or just two of the three. If you scroll back in time 23 years you might find that the "hobby' has very different reasons and logic then it does today. It is all based on when you started.

FURTHER, not everyone has time to paint. Real life gets in the way. Job, kids, wife, coach little league all take time. Having someone else paint them saves time. Further still, some of us don't give a donkey's behind about painting. Its neither fun nor important to us hobby wise.

Osbad wrote:
But priorities =/= motivation.

I just don't accept that. Everyone can spare an average of an hour a week to paint man dollies; some weeks less and some weeks more but simply saying that you don't have the time at all is simply not true unless you work at least 80 hours a week. If you are motivated you will find the time, if you aren''t you won't.

 Palindrome wrote:
Everyone has time to paint, and I mean that literally.

When people say they lack the time to paint what they actually mean is that they lack the motivation.

So next time I have a couple months where I had no time to paint, game etc, do I then say that in actual fact I had the time, but wasn't motivated enough to pick those as options over sleep, food, work, looking after family etc?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I reject the entire premise of the OP's question.

Why does there need to be reasoning behind it?

I'll restate the OP's post in a manner more people will understand:

"I don't understand how people can enjoy the hobby in different ways than I do."

FinnSeer wrote:
I have noticed that there is a trend forming in the community where plenty of people buy their figures pre-painted or commission the painting for someone else.

Personally I don't understand this at all.

I wouldn't have the same connection at all to the miniatures that I have not painted myself. I have never sold any "extra" figures that I have which are painted beyond priming. I also would not buy any miniature that has been already painted and then use it on a game.

Huge part of my hobby consists of building and converting miniatures and then painting them and at the same time I learn and master skills needed to accomplish these tasks. Sometimes I might sat on my work desk for a long time just trying to find out what the next miniature is going to look and what am I trying to tell with that particular miniature. After these are clear the task of actual conversion work will begin and the feeling can't be described with anything else than having a flow moment where everything is perfectly clear and you intuitively know what to do next like as someone would be guiding your hands.

Even at this stage the miniature starts having a personality. His or hers tilt of the head and position of the legs shows confidence or fear, the way of how the gun is kept shows the amount of training and battles fought before.

Painting adds even more life to the miniature. Is he a strict follower of rules and keeps his gear at prime condition or does he let things that do not affect the performance get dirty.

If I let someone do that instead of myself, I would lose a lot of the fun and what the hobby means for me.

I am not saying that my way would be the only way to be able to enjoy the hobby and instead I would like to understand what do you get by commsissioning you army to be painted by someone else?

Its all very simple really

Reasons:
I like playing with nicely painted models.
I have plenty of disposable income and have little spare time, the time I have I want to play games, practice swordfighting, go to the cinema, chill with friends etc etc not sit there painting.
I donlt enjoy painting and am not very good at it - occassionally I have another go and remind myself why I don't.
I don't like buying expensive models and "ruining" them by my half assed attempts at painting. I do actually like making them and oconverting them but then usually ruin them by painting them - last few years stopped the last part of the process.
Its usually cheaper to buy well painted models on ebay than retail unpainted - well the last approx 150 purchases on ebay I made have been.
I am more than happy to give someone who had spent time and effort honing his skills a good reward for it by commissing him or her to paint my unpainted models - usually ones I buy to support the local store / or they are harder to get on ebay.

Everybody wins in my view - I get great looking models, people get paid and get more of what they want, people who play me like playing against nice looking models and not grey plastic.

 Palindrome wrote:

Osbad wrote:
But priorities =/= motivation.

I just don't accept that. Everyone can spare an average of an hour a week to paint man dollies; some weeks less and some weeks more but simply saying that you don't have the time at all is simply not true unless you work at least 80 hours a week. If you are motivated you will find the time, if you aren''t you won't.

Why should anyone feel forced to take part in every different part of the hobby if they don't want to - its a hobby not a job - you do it cos you like it - period. Implying that a conscious choice to do one thing or another is "wrong" in this context is to be honest incorect and can be annoying.............hence the negative replies.

It would be like me saying you are "wasting" game time by painting and not actually playing - its not true but same flawed argument.

FinnSeer wrote:
I am sorry if my post came out with an arrogant tone, it sincerely was not my meaning. And I did not mean that my way would be the only way to be able to enjoy this hobby as I stated in the last phrase.

Amount of replies and some with a defensive tone may mean, that there are some stigma associated to not painting your own miniatures.

Absolutely not. There are just a lot of people out there that hate hobby elitists that try to tell other people how they should enjoy the tabletop wargaming hobby. This kind of thread comes up at least once or twice a year.

Please just accept the fact that other people enjoy different aspects of the hobby than you do. While you think it's bad for people to play miniatures painted by other people, others think your attitude is, frankly, ridiculous.

Personally, I absolutely HATE painting. I consider it a complete waste of my time and derive less than zero entertainment from it. I would rather do my taxes than paint miniatures.

Listen, I'm completely happy that you enjoy painting. But please do not try to project what you find enjoyable onto the rest of us. We're not interested.

 Palindrome wrote:

Osbad wrote:
But priorities =/= motivation.

I just don't accept that. Everyone can spare an average of an hour a week to paint man dollies; some weeks less and some weeks more but simply saying that you don't have the time at all is simply not true unless you work at least 80 hours a week. If you are motivated you will find the time, if you aren''t you won't.

Other things may take priority. Also it may not be worth bothering for an hour a week for some people as they may be slow painters who get little done. An hour would be worthless for me by the time I unpack everything to paint.

Saldiven wrote:

FinnSeer wrote:
I am sorry if my post came out with an arrogant tone, it sincerely was not my meaning. And I did not mean that my way would be the only way to be able to enjoy this hobby as I stated in the last phrase.

Amount of replies and some with a defensive tone may mean, that there are some stigma associated to not painting your own miniatures.

Absolutely not. There are just a lot of people out there that hate hobby elitists that try to tell other people how they should enjoy the tabletop wargaming hobby. This kind of thread comes up at least once or twice a year.

Please just accept the fact that other people enjoy different aspects of the hobby than you do. While you think it's bad for people to play miniatures painted by other people, others think your attitude is, frankly, ridiculous.

Personally, I absolutely HATE painting. I consider it a complete waste of my time and derive less than zero entertainment from it. I would rather do my taxes than paint miniatures.

Listen, I'm completely happy that you enjoy painting. But please do not try to project what you find enjoyable onto the rest of us. We're not interested.

Personally I enjoy painting. But I dont see how enjoying gaming but not painting the models is any different to enjoying painting but not enjoying gaming. Each person can enjoy their hobby the way they like.

FinnSeer wrote:

Amount of replies and some with a defensive tone may mean, that there are some stigma associated to not painting your own miniatures.

No stigma, just a tone of dealing with an ignorant person on the subject. The fact you think its a stigma shows it.

Painting is great for YOU. For others not so much. There are folks on this board and in this very thread that don't play, just build and paint. Should we start looking down at them for missing that part of the hobby?

carmachu wrote:

FinnSeer wrote:

Amount of replies and some with a defensive tone may mean, that there are some stigma associated to not painting your own miniatures.

No stigma, just a tone of dealing with an ignorant person on the subject. The fact you think its a stigma shows it.

Painting is great for YOU. For others not so much. There are folks on this board and in this very thread that don't play, just build and paint. Should we start looking down at them for missing that part of the hobby?

There is a limit though - personally, I'd object on principle and would refuse to play any game with someone that hadn't built their models. I'm not playing against cellophaned boxes...LOS would be a living nightmare.
I know I'm prejudiced

I've already faced worse than that.

I played against Tau and this is what he put out for his Stealth Suits.



Another time a Space Marine player hadn't built his Rhino. I asked how I was supposed to work out LoS from just a sprue and he showed me this scale drawing.

It’s been said a few times but your point about “everyone can spare an hour a week to paint” is a little unfair. Yes I could spare an hour – but that’d be an hour less playing with my kids, or an hour less gaming, maybe a meal out with the misses or a trip stadium to watch the team get thrashed again, simply put yes I can free up an hour to paint – but what would you recommend I drop to fit that in?

Now I actually quite like painting, but it takes me ages – that you can paint an entire squad to tabletop standard in 10 minutes is great but don’t expect the same of all of us. It’s not a matter of “learning the skills” I’ve been painting for 20 years and it still takes me the better part of 3-4 hours to finish a squad to even a basic standard, even longer to a standard I would be reasonably happy with. Now maybe it’s that my technique is poor, but I’ve watched/read so many painting advise articles/videos that I know what I should be doing, it’s just getting my hands to be able to do it with speed that is the problem and short of a bionic replacement that just isn’t going to happen.

So yes, I have used a painting service, I enjoy painting my own models and even have been complemented on them before when I really take the time (we’re talking about 20+ hours per squad here) but I also play a lot of games, and constantly have a range of stuff being added to my collection – when I find that I’ve fallen too far behind I send a batch of the “I’ll never get around to painting this stuff” off to a painter, this tends to be the rank and file stuff that I just don’t have the interest of painting the same model 3-4 times nevermind 40 (in the case of some of my 40k WFB armies). Sure I probably could spend more time painting than I do now, which is around 2-3 hours a week, but then it’s eating into the other fun stuff I like to do and why would I chose to do something less fun if I didn’t have to?

Using a pre-painted or pro-painted army only affects the owner's hobby experience.

Using a non-painted army affects the opponent's experience.

If people don't want to paint models, and prefer to buy painted models instead, I think they don't need to make excuses why they didn't paint the figures themselves.

 Palindrome wrote:
Everyone has time to paint, and I mean that literally.

When people say they lack the time to paint what they actually mean is that they lack the motivation.

It really all depends on how you split your time up, I have 3 ways I break up my time: Work, sleep, entertainment. I am in "work" mode from 5:30 in the morning until 6:30 at night, I sleep from about 10:30 till 5:30 (when I wake up and shower etc...). When I get home, I dedicate about a half an hour to my evening meal and then I have 3.5 hours of entertainment time. During that time period I can split my time up in several ways. I can paint, I can sit on Dakka, I can watch sports, read a book, play video games. If I watch a sport I usually add painting in to that as it's a nice way to watch the game and to paint my models. But since I really only watch 1 hockey team and 1 football team, I watch sports maybe 3 times a week. The other times I'm doing other activities, on Fridays I game at my FLGS, and I tend to play video games. There have been times where I look at my pile of unassembled and unpainted models and go, "feth I have a lot to paint" and it becomes an extremely daunting task and yes that's lack of motivation, but 90% of the time I try to split my time evenly, one day I paint, one day I play video games. But if I had the cash to have someone paint my models for me, it'd be done in a heartbeat.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Using a non-painted army affects the opponent's experience.

I can honestly say, I've never thought "This game would be more fun if the other army was painted".

Do two painted armies facing each other look good? Yes, but as long as I have MY army painted(since I'm a "Play it Painted" type these days), I'm happy. I couldn't care less if the opponent has a painted army or not, I'm just happy to be playing.

FinnSeer wrote:

I wouldn't have the same connection at all to the miniatures that I have not painted myself. I have never sold any "extra" figures that I have which are painted beyond priming. I also would not buy any miniature that has been already painted and then use it on a game.

1. Not everyone is in this hobby for the same reason or reasons as you.
2. Some people have significant medical issues that makes painting difficult, painful, or impossible.
3. What you think is fun and rewarding could be annoying and boring to someone else.

Don't impose your idea of fun on others. It takes different strokes to rule the world, yes it does. People are people so why should it be...you and I should get along so awfully. I hate myself for sniffing glue. Your mileage may vary. Don't wizz on the electric fence.

 PredaKhaine wrote:

There is a limit though - personally, I'd object on principle and would refuse to play any game with someone that hadn't built their models. I'm not playing against cellophaned boxes...LOS would be a living nightmare.
I know I'm prejudiced

You're right there is a limit. I would NEVER sit at a table and play an elitist like you or the OP or Palindrome. Its people like you that take the fun from the hobby.

Building models =/= playing the game. I've played people that have had armies that consist of beautiful golden demon level painted armies to armies of proxies and half built models.

Its the person at the other end of the table that makes it a good enjoyable game or not. Attitudes like yours(and others that I have seen in this and many many other threads like it) that ruin fun.

carmachu wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:

There is a limit though - personally, I'd object on principle and would refuse to play any game with someone that hadn't built their models. I'm not playing against cellophaned boxes...LOS would be a living nightmare.
I know I'm prejudiced

You're right there is a limit. I would NEVER sit at a table and play an elitist like you or the OP or Palindrome. Its people like you that take the fun from the hobby.

Building models =/= playing the game. I've played people that have had armies that consist of beautiful golden demon level painted armies to armies of proxies and half built models.

Its the person at the other end of the table that makes it a good enjoyable game or not. Attitudes like yours(and others that I have seen in this and many many other threads like it) that ruin fun.

Miniature wargaming is a social contract, if you don't care enough about that contract to even bother assembling your miniatures then I don't wan't to waste my limited free time playing you.

If that makes me an elitist, then so be it.

carmachu wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:

There is a limit though - personally, I'd object on principle and would refuse to play any game with someone that hadn't built their models. I'm not playing against cellophaned boxes...LOS would be a living nightmare.
I know I'm prejudiced

You're right there is a limit. I would NEVER sit at a table and play an elitist like you or the OP or Palindrome. Its people like you that take the fun from the hobby.

Building models =/= playing the game. I've played people that have had armies that consist of beautiful golden demon level painted armies to armies of proxies and half built models.

Its the person at the other end of the table that makes it a good enjoyable game or not. Attitudes like yours(and others that I have seen in this and many many other threads like it) that ruin fun.

You're taking my post seriously?
I said I wouldn't play against boxes of mini's, still wrapped in the plastic cellophane - as in straight off the shelf...but now I'm an elitist?

But yay, I get to be a fun ruiner!
Posting in binary is fun - an on/off state where on = Fun Ruiner, off= would rather just play boxes of space marines against each other without assembling a single thing

I love this logic 'you like to play assembled models=elitist'

Thanks, you've just given me a genuine laugh

PhantomViper wrote:


Miniature wargaming is a social contract, if you don't care enough about that contract to even bother assembling your miniatures then I don't wan't to waste my limited free time playing you.

If that makes me an elitist, then so be it.

And again you demonstrate why I wouldn't play you. In my 24 years of playing wargames(longer if you count battletech and RPGs) I've discovered the simple rule- its about the people, ther person on the other side of the table that make the game great or suck. There are people with beautifully painted armies, maybe even like you, whom I would never play. But there are people that I would parachute into a gaming store to get a game in with who would say "hey I forgot X, can I proxy it" that is quite fine.

Its about people. Not models. I don't know where this social contract thing keeps popping up, but it certainly doesn't take people into account.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PredaKhaine wrote:


You're taking my post seriously?
I said I wouldn't play against boxes of mini's, still wrapped in the plastic cellophane - as in straight off the shelf...but now I'm an elitist?

But yay, I get to be a fun ruiner!
Posting in binary is fun - an on/off state where on = Fun Ruiner, off= would rather just play boxes of space marines against each other without assembling a single thing

I love this logic 'you like to play assembled models=elitist'

Thanks, you've just given me a genuine laugh

there are people That I absolutely would allow that with. Right off the shelf, in cellophane. There are also people with Golden demon level painted units that its not worth my time playing against.

Its about the person on the other side, not the models.

I refuse to play anyone that isn't a C-cup at least. Male or female.

carmachu wrote:


there are people That I absolutely would allow that with. Right off the shelf, in cellophane.

You know, it would be easier if you just admitted you hadn't really read the post you were replying to. But whatever man, keep digging.

 carlos13th wrote:

Other things may take priority

Of course but I stand by my stance that 'lack of time' is little more than an excuse, people obviously find it hard to accept but everything that we do requires motivation so if you don't do it.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

carmachu wrote:
I would NEVER sit at a table and play an elitist like you or the OP or Palindrome.

This is the first time that I have ever been called an elitist and as such I will treasure this post for all of 5 seconds before discarding it for being utterly inaccurate.

Im not sure whether this is a troll OP to be honest, I think its pretty obvious what you get.

If i paint all my own stuff, I end up with a massive army of horribly painted figures that look rubbish and make me cringe every time I whip them out.
I do try and do a bit when I can but not all of us have the time/patience/skill/means required to paint all the figures we play with.

Predakhaine wrote:
You're taking my post seriously?
I said I wouldn't play against boxes of mini's, still wrapped in the plastic cellophane - as in straight off the shelf...but now I'm an elitist?

But yay, I get to be a fun ruiner!
Posting in binary is fun - an on/off state where on = Fun Ruiner, off= would rather just play boxes of space marines against each other without assembling a single thing

I love this logic 'you like to play assembled models=elitist'

Thanks, you've just given me a genuine laugh

carmachu wrote:


there are people That I absolutely would allow that with. Right off the shelf, in cellophane. There are also people with Golden demon level painted units that its not worth my time playing against.

Its about the person on the other side, not the models.

Ok - so who's being elitist?
Me, with my preference for playing against assembled models or you with your list of criteria you apply to your games which basically comes down to "If I don't like you, I won't play you."
Or Kronk who will only play against a c-cupped opponant?

Edit:It's Kronk isn't it

 kronk wrote:
I refuse to play anyone that isn't a C-cup at least. Male or female.

Double Ds right here Kronk! Er well, probably smaller, because I was borrowing an ex-gf's old bra, but she was DDs.

Alf is ok in my book.

The rest of you, up your game!

 kronk wrote:
Alf is ok in my book.

The rest of you, up your game!

More trans fat!