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No, it is an absolute fact. The same as if you wore a blindfold it would affect the visual experience.

I proudly commission my armies for many of the reasons listed by others in this thread. My time is short and I enjoy the aesthetic and game play of war gaming more than I enjoy the painting aspect. I have never had anyone care that I didn't paint my own models, and frankly I would LOVE to have a conversation with someone who was bothered by my commissioned army mans because that would really be a hilarious exchange. If someone is going judge my gamer credibility (ha! whatever that is) based on whether or not I physically applied paint to model, well, I simply don't need to interact with that person on any meaningful level.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
No, it is an absolute fact.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, as it's going to be a circular argument.

 Palindrome wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

Clearly Alf if painting isn't priority numero uno in your life then you're doing it wrong. Because you know Palindrom knows exactly what our free time consists of to the point that he knows not painting means a lack of motivation not time in every case.

Did you even read my posts? You certainly dont seem to have understood them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Why does me wanting to run in the evening mean I have a lack of motivation to paint?

It doesn't.

I both read and understood. You seem to have an innate understanding of how everyone uses their time and are the judge of that usage of time. Those who claim they lack the time required to paint are lazy not busy. You know that for a fact it would seem. I got it.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

I both read and understood.

Evidently you didn't.

 Palindrome wrote:
It doesn't. If you don't paint at all however due to 'lack of time' then you have no motivation to paint, because if you did have motivation you have have painted something to some degree.

I can have all the motivation in the world to paint. I could sit here on Dakka and go, "man I really want to paint those Forge World pieces tonight." and I could get home and realize, "well I have to cook and eat dinner" so I lose some time, and then, "those dishes are really starting to pile up, I should clean them." and then, "I need to throw in some laundry." to, "I need to walk the dog" to throwing the laundry into the dryer, and then reading the kids a bedtime story and then spending some time with the wife, or balancing my checkbook, or paying bills and budgeting for the next month. Just because I do not have the time on a daily basis because other things get in the way does not mean I have a lack of motivation it means that there are other things in my life that I chose to put ahead of painting because they were more time sensitive (paying bills), or it's responsible (chores, putting the kids to bed, etc...).

Perhaps you're fine with wetting a brush, popping a paint pot open and painting a leg, but to me that is more of hassle to set up and tear down when I can save it for the times when I do have the chances to paint.

I love how people paying for painting is such a controversial topic. What about growing your own food vs buying it from the grocery store? Building your own house vs contracting the work out? What is it about PAINTING models causes this? It's like how people flip out about Space Marine special characters not being from the "right" chapter yet barely anyone gives a damn about Eldrad being in every Eldar list.

I've painted 80,000 points of 40k models.. That's A LOT btw, am I less of a painter because 3 units of that 80k was commissioned due to not having the time? It's not some black and white subject, plenty who paint also pay others to paint for them to speed up the process.

PhantomViper wrote:


Its actually about the game and the gaming experience that you wan't to provide to your opponent.

I don't need a game to interact with people, if I wan't to interact with my friends we can just chat or go have a beer or whatever.

But if we agree to go play a game then I wan't to make sure that I'll provide my opponent with the best gaming experience that I can, and for me that means that I don't use proxies, and lately that the vast majority, if not all of the models that I use are fully painted. Likewise I expect my opponent to at least have his models assembled. I don't care if they are painted, I don't even mind if some are proxies, but I do draw the line at playing against half-assembled stuff!

As for you not wanting to play the likes of me, that's perfectly fine, if you are the kind of person that doesn't even make the bare minimum effort to provide your opponent with a good gaming experience, then like I said before, I'm not going to waste my limited gaming time playing you.

Given the attidude you have provided in this thread, the assumption a "well painted army" is providing your opponent a good time is woefully lacking in what a good time would be. I'm the kind of person that provides a good game to whatever steps up to the table- GD level, or barely assembled. You seem to think that a painted army is what its about. Sadly you misss the mark of what truely provides a good experience.

 Kirasu wrote:
I love how people paying for painting is such a controversial topic. What about growing your own food vs buying it from the grocery store? Building your own house vs contracting the work out? What is it about PAINTING models causes this?

I am also rather curious why this is such a problem for some people.

The only conclusion I can come to is that there is a misconception that people who commission paint work must be hemorrhaging money, and therefore are somehow illegitimate hobbyists because their wealth allows them to bypass certain parts of the hhhobby.

Now, before anyone jumps down my throat, I am not stating this as fact. It is merely a theory I have based on numerous discussions on this topic both here and on other forums. In all of those discussions there appeared to be a creeping distrust of anyone who commissions their models and inevitably economic factors came into play as to why the act of commissioning is "ridiculous". I can't help but think there is a level of envy based upon the misconception that commissioners are fat cats buying their way into war gaming.

Again, just a theory.


*edited for typo

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Palindrome wrote:
It doesn't. If you don't paint at all however due to 'lack of time' then you have no motivation to paint, because if you did have motivation you have have painted something to some degree.

I can have all the motivation in the world to paint. I could sit here on Dakka and go, "man I really want to paint those Forge World pieces tonight." and I could get home and realize, "well I have to cook and eat dinner" so I lose some time, and then, "those dishes are really starting to pile up, I should clean them." and then, "I need to throw in some laundry." to, "I need to walk the dog" to throwing the laundry into the dryer, and then reading the kids a bedtime story and then spending some time with the wife, or balancing my checkbook, or paying bills and budgeting for the next month. Just because I do not have the time on a daily basis because other things get in the way does not mean I have a lack of motivation it means that there are other things in my life that I chose to put ahead of painting because they were more time sensitive (paying bills), or it's responsible (chores, putting the kids to bed, etc...).

So you are telling me that in a given week, or month, you have no time that you could set aside to paint models? None at all?

I have the same time pressures that you do (minus the dog) yet if there is something that I need to get painted I will make time to do so. It may well mean cutting back on something else but then that's central to the point that I am making. If you are motivated you will find the time but if you aren't you won't.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Palindrome wrote:
It doesn't. If you don't paint at all however due to 'lack of time' then you have no motivation to paint, because if you did have motivation you have have painted something to some degree.

I can have all the motivation in the world to paint. I could sit here on Dakka and go, "man I really want to paint those Forge World pieces tonight." and I could get home and realize, "well I have to cook and eat dinner" so I lose some time, and then, "those dishes are really starting to pile up, I should clean them." and then, "I need to throw in some laundry." to, "I need to walk the dog" to throwing the laundry into the dryer, and then reading the kids a bedtime story and then spending some time with the wife, or balancing my checkbook, or paying bills and budgeting for the next month. Just because I do not have the time on a daily basis because other things get in the way does not mean I have a lack of motivation it means that there are other things in my life that I chose to put ahead of painting because they were more time sensitive (paying bills), or it's responsible (chores, putting the kids to bed, etc...).

So you are telling me that in a given week, or month, you have no time that you could set aside to paint models? None at all?

You're trying to tell us that you're a better judge of our time still? You see, I am both reading and understanding you.

Who are you to judge that? Secondly what does it matter if someone has the time to paint and chooses to purchase painted models instead? It doesn't. You're trying to enforce your own perceptions of other peoples lives and how they should be living them.

 Palindrome wrote:
So you are telling me that in a given week, or month, you have no time that you could set aside to paint models? None at all?

I have time, what I dedicate it to is for me to choose. Monday and Thursday were the only two days in the past month that I took brush to model because for prior month I was choosing to spend my time doing other things (namely playing Final Fantasy 14). It was not that I didn't want to paint, or that I didn't feel motivated to paint, it's just that I was chose to spend my time in the evenings to get to the end content of the game.

I have the same time pressures that you do (minus the dog) yet if there is something that I need to get painted I will make time to do so. It may well mean cutting back on something else but then that's central to the point that I am making. If you are motivated you will find the time but if you aren't you won't.

Well I don't have dogs, kids, or wife , but I do have a cat and cats are like toddlers that you can leave alone.

The other problem is what type of person you are. I'm, admittedly, a procrastinator, I work better under pressure. Out of the 'armies' I painted myself (because I've bought 3 of my armies second hand and pre-painted) 90% of the work was done a week ahead of an event, I would sit down and say, "I need to paint these models by Sunday." and then spend the week painting those models. Do I have more motivation to paint those models than say a month before the event? Yeah, but that's because the event holds importance, but painting models takes no more motivation for me to do than sitting down and playing a video game. It all depends on where I choose to put my time, which I'm sure is the point you're making, but you're hung up on the word motivation.

I appreciate that some people will want to pay for figures to be painted, maybe they don't have the time, which is possible. Also they may not be able to paint to the standard they see online, again possible. I've never commissioned painted models but I have bought painted models, sometimes it's nice to have the variety. I wouldn't commission an army though, that's not my thing.

As long as you don't try to pass off the work as your own, which is simply a lie, I'm ok with it.

 Alfndrate wrote:

I have time, what I dedicate it to is for me to choose

Of course it is, you have also painted more in the last month than I have.

What I am talking about is people who apparently have no time to paint at all which is frankly bollocks and nothing more than an excuse.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Palindrome wrote:
It doesn't. If you don't paint at all however due to 'lack of time' then you have no motivation to paint, because if you did have motivation you have have painted something to some degree.

I can have all the motivation in the world to paint. I could sit here on Dakka and go, "man I really want to paint those Forge World pieces tonight." and I could get home and realize, "well I have to cook and eat dinner" so I lose some time, and then, "those dishes are really starting to pile up, I should clean them." and then, "I need to throw in some laundry." to, "I need to walk the dog" to throwing the laundry into the dryer, and then reading the kids a bedtime story and then spending some time with the wife, or balancing my checkbook, or paying bills and budgeting for the next month. Just because I do not have the time on a daily basis because other things get in the way does not mean I have a lack of motivation it means that there are other things in my life that I chose to put ahead of painting because they were more time sensitive (paying bills), or it's responsible (chores, putting the kids to bed, etc...).

So you are telling me that in a given week, or month, you have no time that you could set aside to paint models? None at all?

The problem here is not that there isn't time. Of course there is time. One could forgo a lot of things in order to find time for painting, but that choice is made by an individual based on whether or not the activity being sacrificed for the painting has merit and importance in that individual's life. And that seems to be where the disconnect is for you and those who are unwilling to sacrifice other aspects of their life to paint.

For example, I could skip sleeping if I wanted to paint. I could also call out sick from work for an entire week to try and knock out a new army, but the activities of sleeping and working are more important to me than painting. And there is a whole slew of other activities deemed more important in my life than painting. Painting isn't necessary to play the game, and it certainly isn't necessary when artists are willing to sell their services to paint armies. So, trying to get a "gotcha" moment out of those of us who are saying we don't have time to paint is a pointless endeavor. Because we do not have time relative to the other more pressing matters in our lives that we deem more worthwhile than painting.

I love to paint my models and I have too much time to do it. That dose'nt mean everyone does. Not everyone loves to paint and has the time to do it!
Some people are in the hobby for the gaming, some for the painting, some for both and more. If people get others to paint their models they have their resons.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

I have time, what I dedicate it to is for me to choose

Of course it is, you have also painted more in the last month than I have.

What I am talking about is people who apparently have no time to paint at all which is frankly bollocks and nothing more than an excuse.

What about people (like me) who think painting models is the most tedious, time consuming, and least enjoyable possible way upon which I could waste any measureable amount of time doing.


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 dakkajet wrote:
I love to paint my models and I have too much time to do it. That dose'nt mean everyone does. Not everyone loves to paint and has the time to do it!
Some people are in the hobby for the gaming, some for the painting, some for both and more. If people get others to paint their models they have their resons.

This is one of the most accurate, well reasoned, and respectable posts on this thread thus far.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

I have time, what I dedicate it to is for me to choose

Of course it is, you have also painted more in the last month than I have.

What I am talking about is people who apparently have no time to paint at all which is frankly bollocks and nothing more than an excuse.

That is "bullocks" and no more than a sweeping assumption on your part based on nothing other than your own personal experiences and observations of people in the hobby. How exactly do you know it is "bullocks"? Have you interviewed all of these aforementioned people who you claim have the time to paint despite their assertions to the contrary? Do you have any sort of data on the topic? If not then I would boldly venture that your assertions are in fact "bullocks" and not the other way around. There is no way at all that you can back up your claims that those who pay for armies to be painted because they don't have time do in fact have the time.

Speaking as an old school club player, the attitude that used to be normal was to play with painted models.

If you painted them yourself that was highly admirable, especially if they were nicely done, and lots of people did paint their own stuff. OTOH there was no shame in getting stuff done by other people.

I personally have painted a number of armies, two of which I sold off to other club members, and I have bought or commissioned several armies.

carmachu wrote:

Given the attidude you have provided in this thread, the assumption a "well painted army" is providing your opponent a good time is woefully lacking in what a good time would be. I'm the kind of person that provides a good game to whatever steps up to the table- GD level, or barely assembled. You seem to think that a painted army is what its about. Sadly you misss the mark of what truely provides a good experience.

No, I said that a well painted army is part of the gaming experience.

And given the attitude that you've displayed in this thread I would say that you must be part of that select number of players that half-assembles models and then claims them to be whatever over-powered flavour of the month army the interwebs are sprouting at the moment... And then have the gal to call anyone elitist because they don't wan't to play your half Ork, half Grey Knight mess that really are meant to be Necrons and Tau this time...

That must be it isn't it? That is the reason why people that don't like playing against unassembled models seem to be affecting you so much? Because you ARE one of "those" guys?

I think some of the stigma results from people believing somewhere inside that a commissioned army indicates a player who is willing to pay to win. Basically, that they are throwing their money around. Similar to how in online games people get mad if you use real life cash items, even if that item has the same stats as an earn-able item.

Personally, I have some pre-painted stuff, but that's because it was A) cheap for the number of models I got, and B) allowed me to start playing a new army when I don't have time to paint it at the moment. And there is always the last part... C) I tend to be semi-perfectionist in my painting, and so it takes me forever.

 troa wrote:
I think some of the stigma results from people believing somewhere inside that a commissioned army indicates a player who is willing to pay to win. Basically, that they are throwing their money around. Similar to how in online games people get mad if you use real life cash items, even if that item has the same stats as an earn-able item.

Um, how does a painted army help you win? If anything, an unpainted one would give you an edge, as people find it harder to tell which model is which.

It will be a long time before I win a game of 40K with this army I commissioned...

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

That is "bullocks" and no more than a sweeping assumption on your part based on nothing other than your own personal experiences and observations of people in the hobby. How exactly do you know it is "bullocks"? Have you interviewed all of these aforementioned people who you claim have the time to paint despite their assertions to the contrary? Do you have any sort of data on the topic? If not then I would boldly venture that your assertions are in fact "bullocks" and not the other way around. There is no way at all that you can back up your claims that those who pay for armies to be painted because they don't have time do in fact have the time.

Its bollocks, with an o.

I have already stated my case on mulitple occasions. If you don't have the time you had better work 80+ hours a week and have a large family, otherwise I think you will find that what you actually have is no inclination to sit down and paint.

I really don't care if you pay someone else to paint your armies for you or if you paint them yourself, but at least be honest.

Yup. My whole nerve damage and inability to hold a brush steady is just an excuse, isn't it, Pallindrome?

The more and more you claim to not be arrogant, the more and more you sound it.

 Palindrome wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

That is "bullocks" and no more than a sweeping assumption on your part based on nothing other than your own personal experiences and observations of people in the hobby. How exactly do you know it is "bullocks"? Have you interviewed all of these aforementioned people who you claim have the time to paint despite their assertions to the contrary? Do you have any sort of data on the topic? If not then I would boldly venture that your assertions are in fact "bullocks" and not the other way around. There is no way at all that you can back up your claims that those who pay for armies to be painted because they don't have time do in fact have the time.

Its bollocks, with an o.

I have already stated my case on mulitple occasions. If you don't have the time you had better work 80+ hours a week and have a large family, otherwise I think you will find that what you actually have is no inclination to sit down and paint.

I really don't care if you pay someone else to paint your armies for you or if you paint them yourself, but at least be honest.

I don't understand where you get off making those sorts of statements about other peoples' lives. You don't live their lives. The experience of living is not inherently equal across the board for everyone on the planet as you seem to think it is. Nor should people be held to your arbitrary standards.

Saldiven wrote:

What about people (like me) who think painting models is the most tedious, time consuming, and least enjoyable possible way upon which I could waste any measureable amount of time doing

As long as you don't make false claims I really don't care.

I have never refused to play anyone in my 2 decades of wargaming, although I wish I had turned down a couple of games in hindsight, and I am unlikely to start now.

Personally I only field fully painted and based units but I have seen everything from highly unlikely unpainted proxies to golden deamon standard armies across the table. I really don't care overly much but what irks me is dishonesty.


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 OverwatchCNC wrote:

I don't understand where you get off making those sorts of statements about other peoples' lives.

Keep your facepalms well away from me. If you have the inclination to paint, thats exactly what you will do. if you don't, as I have said repeatedly, you won't.

Palindrome, I think peoples objection is with your use of the term no motivation, this implies that someone is lazy and just cannot be bother to finish painting there army, this is a very different from someone who would love to paint their army but puts it behind supporting their team / playing games / spending time with the family.

the use of no motivation implies that even if they didn't have these other things to do that they would still find something else to do instead of painting - when for many people that is not the case. Having too many things to do is not the same as having no motivation to do something, and I think it is your use of this term that is causing the misunderstanding on what you are saying.

You're argument of "you would make time" makes me believe that you are probably in late teens/early 20's without a family (apologies if not - but that's the kind of attitude I had back then), if that is true you have no idea what it is like to support a family. Now as I've said before I manage to do some painting and I enjoy it - but due to the speed at which I paint I do send some stuff off to a commission painter so that it actually gets done. I have tonnes of motivation to paint, but I also have obligations to look after my family and yes I do put playing games ahead of painting so if I can get a free moment when one of my gamer friends also gets a free moment (they also have families so have their own obligations) I do that instead of paint. Again this is not a lack of motivation, just a different set of priorties.

I think most people actually agree with what you are trying to say - I just think your choice of words is wrong. Then again I could be entirely wrong on that point.

 curran12 wrote:
Yup. My whole nerve damage and inability to hold a brush steady is just an excuse, isn't it, Pallindrome?

No, its a reason.

 Palindrome wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

What about people (like me) who think painting models is the most tedious, time consuming, and least enjoyable possible way upon which I could waste any measureable amount of time doing

As long as you don't make false claims I really don't care.

I have never refused to play anyone in my 2 decades of wargaming, although I wish I had turned down a couple of games in hindsight, and I am unlikely to start now.

Personally I only field fully painted and based units but I have seen everything from highly unlikely unpainted proxies to golden deamon standard armies across the table. I really don't care overly much but what irks me is dishonesty.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

I don't understand where you get off making those sorts of statements about other peoples' lives.

Keep your facepalms well away from me. If you have the inclination to paint, thats exactly what you will do. if you don't, as I have said repeatedly, you won't.

The face palm was in reference to my misspelling bollocks. Should have made that clear, sorry.

OT I still think you're making some pretty off base assumptions about how other hobbyists hobby.