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 ClockworkZion wrote:
You may need your eyes checked. Only full proxies where banned, conversions are on a case-by-case approval basis.

Of course their definition of "proxy" isn't the same one that the rest of us use. Their example of an illegal proxy is adding a scope to a Cadian lasgunner to make a storm trooper, when a storm trooper is just a guardsman with a fancy gun. That's blatantly a case of "buy the official model or don't play".

 Agamemnon2 wrote:


There will not be a GW Gestapo cutting off stores that refuse to adhere to a mythical document. There will not be plastic Sisters. There will not be a plastic Thunderhawk. The unsourced statements of a couple of faceless Internet avatars can safely be ignored until they present some actual hard evidence.

Just as you shall be ignored until you present some actual hard evidence to back up your unsourced statements.

My answer is - "I can't actually see the future, and this is my personal opinion based on information ( and my interpretation of the historical actions of GW ) that I have observed, as viewed through my own personal psyche."


Only time will tell if your speculations hold any more weight than mine.

 Azazelx wrote:

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

Dakka commentator makes up a bunch of extra stuff and complains about the extra stuff.
Business as usual.
We've played Throne of Skulls under those rules, taken our own design Mycetic Spores made of 80p polystyrene eggs and, even, ymgarls with chapterhouse cthulu heads, and those bloody red shirts had the cheek to compliment the army and give us a glass trophy! The horror! The horror!

I don't think you'll be getting away with that again!

Having said that - the rules seem reasonable from GW's perspective, and won't have any impact on almost all of us.

Seriously, I think we would be OK again. I have met the Warhammer World games manager and staff, and with the odd exception, they are enthusiasts and all about the rule of cool.

Like everyone, we've met GW employees who are prats - altho the manager's great, there's one particular guy at Bluewater who whinges endlessly that Curtis's mate hasn't got the new Space Marine codex, and whines on how he's doing him a favour letting him play (result, even more time spent at Dark Sphere).

But Warhammer World is a fantastic place, I was very impressed by the staff who are well-motivated and have a great sense of humour. Because they're enthusiasts, they want people to make an effort, and because it's a GW location, which must cost a lot to run, they want people to use GW models. If you're offended by that, you must have your outrage bar set exceptionally low.

Alabaster.clown wrote:
Just as you shall be ignored until you present some actual hard evidence to back up your unsourced statements.

The burden of proof is on people making the claim. What is asserted without evidence can be summarily dismissed or put aside to wait for the materialization of such evidence. With regard to the Thunderhawk, I am agnostic, since this latest rumor does not bring anything concretely new to the table, except for the whole "6 sprue maximum" angle, which some earlier posters have already addressed and dismissed.

With regard to the "Warrior's Code" being a harbinger of dire things to come is, I am even more skeptical, since for GW to make a Thunderhawk is, to a large degree, logical of them. They like Marines, they like big kits. For GW to start a keen interest on the tournament scene like that, not so much. Even at worst, this interpretation might simply apply to in-store gaming in the future. There is no reason to believe independent gamers or events would be affected. Certainly not to the extent of getting lawyers involved, or doing it via contractual means, like someone suggested a few messages back. That's no better than alarmism at this point.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
The burden of proof is on people making the claim.

Given (almost?) all of GWs recent actions I'd actually argue the burden of proof is on them.
If they introduce something new and people can see a reason that it could be bad it is not unreasonable to expect it will be bad given the company's recent history.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You may need your eyes checked. Only full proxies where banned, conversions are on a case-by-case approval basis.

Of course their definition of "proxy" isn't the same one that the rest of us use. Their example of an illegal proxy is adding a scope to a Cadian lasgunner to make a storm trooper, when a storm trooper is just a guardsman with a fancy gun. That's blatantly a case of "buy the official model or don't play".

This.

It also seems to me to be an emulation of PP's Steamroller tournament package, just poorly implemented; as GW's rules are not up to the same scratch as PP's are.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
While I enjoy rampant and baseless speculation as much as the next bloke, this is egregiously pointless. The plastic Thunderhawk thing is, for the first time, not the most outrageously stupid part of a rumor, but that still doesn't make it in any way likelier to be true.

There will not be a GW Gestapo cutting off stores that refuse to adhere to a mythical document. There will not be plastic Sisters. There will not be a plastic Thunderhawk. The unsourced statements of a couple of faceless Internet avatars can safely be ignored until they present some actual hard evidence.

Damnit Agamemnon! Stop being sensible about it this is dakka. We like being radical here, either pro or anti GW.
M.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
There will not be plastic Sisters.

Sure there will. We know, from interviews with developers, that they've tried making them in the past. There is a desire to make them. Then there's the recent thing from Enter the Citadel where they reportedly said that they now have the technology to do plastic Sisters. There is far more evidence in their favour than some dodgy internet source.

And, of course, the recent good performance of the AS codex is good evidence against any theories about GW not seeing them as a good investment, as does the big DE update.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
While I enjoy rampant and baseless speculation as much as the next bloke, this is egregiously pointless. The plastic Thunderhawk thing is, for the first time, not the most outrageously stupid part of a rumor, but that still doesn't make it in any way likelier to be true.

There will not be a GW Gestapo cutting off stores that refuse to adhere to a mythical document. There will not be plastic Sisters. There will not be a plastic Thunderhawk. The unsourced statements of a couple of faceless Internet avatars can safely be ignored until they present some actual hard evidence.

amen to all that

 Peregrine wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You may need your eyes checked. Only full proxies where banned, conversions are on a case-by-case approval basis.

Of course their definition of "proxy" isn't the same one that the rest of us use. Their example of an illegal proxy is adding a scope to a Cadian lasgunner to make a storm trooper, when a storm trooper is just a guardsman with a fancy gun. That's blatantly a case of "buy the official model or don't play".

They gave some examples though to help with that. Things like using a Rhino as a Trukk is a no go. But Centurions as Oblits may get you an okay if they're done well.

It seems rather clear to me that their idea of a proxy is actually not that far off what we think of in some respect (dragon replacing a Falcon). They aren't against conversions or rule of cool, they're against things being unclear because it doesn't have the right weapons on it, or because it's modeled in such a way to give the person who has it an unfair advantage.

Maybe that ends up defying some of the internet's definitions because of it, but for the sake of fair play and a fun event I understand their point of view completely and I'm on their side for it.

And for the people crying about how GW is going to try killing the hobby with this: look at the version number for that document. It's not 1.0. This is not a new thing, and honestly I don't think the things the sales department is doing to help smooth out events by having standards is really a thing you need to worry about being crammed down everyone's throats. If you don't play at Warhammer World it doesn't effect you and it can't effect you because there are no GW secret police to make it work.

Really, I'm not sure this is a bad thing on the 40K side of things. Not being able to codex hop as easily for Marines just puts them in the same boat as all the Xenos armies. It'll be no more worse than saying that Eldar can't be used as Tau. It's partially since I expect IG or one of the other Imperial armies to be way too good and get a flood of folk using their marines as whatever the FOTM is.

The WFB side where they are trying to crack down on scenic fillers is stupid, though. It's one of the few ways to break up the mess of figs you'd otherwise have, and also saves so sanity from you painting for 70th spearmen. 20 percent max is fine, but killing the ability to add nice rock outcroppings, fallen monuments, ect is just counterproductive.

All this thread did was give me an awesome idea for a Vengeance to be converted into flying tanks

 Hulksmash wrote:
All this thread did was give me an awesome idea for a Vengeance to be converted into flying tanks

Thinking of conversions...I've been wanting to convert a super heavy into a church on treads.

We rate these rumors as follows:
Apocalypse Stuff: Probable coming from multiple known sources
Thunderhawk Stuff: Possible coming from multiple sources, but it involves the words "Thunderhawk" and "Plastic" so we rolled it back one notch...

I can't even imagine what it will cost.

I CAN imagine what it will cost, but GW will get it and probably from me as well. I'd really like to see a plastic Thunderhawk in my model collection.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

It seems rather clear to me that their idea of a proxy is actually not that far off what we think of in some respect (dragon replacing a Falcon). They aren't against conversions or rule of cool, they're against things being unclear because it doesn't have the right weapons on it, or because it's modeled in such a way to give the person who has it an unfair advantage.

The Dragon replacing a Fire Prism was a real example from the campaign weekend I went to. And it was awesome. There was nothing unclear about it at all. You can see the two of them in this image.




I mean, that's a truly amazing army and if I was that guy, the thought that I'd need to get every single converted mini approved beforehand is just so incredibly disheartening.


On a more... mortal front.

I imagine they'll never let me use this guy as an Assault marine sergeant again.



And my Apothecary conversion will probably be tossed in a bin someplace.

 azreal13 wrote:
The headline everybody seems to have missed is that in these rules (guidelines? no, rules) GW have actually acknowledged the existence of other model making companies!

HA! Yes Azreal, you are very much correct. A further chink in the armor.

 Compel wrote:
I mean, that's a truly amazing army and if I was that guy, the thought that I'd need to get every single converted mini approved beforehand is just so incredibly disheartening.

Why disheartening? When you make a full conversion counts-as army you kind of have to expect that people are going to want to take a look before accepting it.

I imagine they'll never let me use this guy as an Assault marine sergeant again.
And my Apothecary conversion will probably be tossed in a bin someplace.

Non GW parts?

Also, why would you bin them? Do you only play at WW?

As someone who plays almost exclusively with either the primary or ally being counts-as these days I have accepted that I need to send in photos of my completed army for major events.

The only real issue I have is the non-gw parts thing. We had a local GW store open up and I was going to participate in their armies on parade (excuse to paint some more stuff for my armies) but the 100% gw parts (up from 50% GW from back in the day) meant I couldn't attend. But that's the only gripe and I don't expect this to expand to events they don't provide any support for so it's a non-worry for me.

 Hulksmash wrote:
As someone who plays almost exclusively with either the primary or ally being counts-as these days I have accepted that I need to send in photos of my completed army for major events.

This all day long. Most big events require you to clear conversions or count-as ahead of time. Most also operate by rule of cool and are really just trying to make sure no one tries to sneak by some modeled for advantage gak. GW doing it is no different than anyone else doing it.

 Hulksmash wrote:
The only real issue I have is the non-gw parts thing. We had a local GW store open up and I was going to participate in their armies on parade (excuse to paint some more stuff for my armies) but the 100% gw parts (up from 50% GW from back in the day) meant I couldn't attend. But that's the only gripe and I don't expect this to expand to events they don't provide any support for so it's a non-worry for me.

The non-GW parts thing makes since seeing as it's Warhammer World. I mean back before we had so many competitors for alternate bits GW used to require conversions in their events contained a certain percentage of actual model parts. With it being so easy to get full models that look a lot like the official versions it's no real surprise they'd push a little further and just say that all the parts need to be GW (though I'm betting they won't ban sculpted sections and the like, so if people are good with the green stuff they're probably safe).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Compel wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

It seems rather clear to me that their idea of a proxy is actually not that far off what we think of in some respect (dragon replacing a Falcon). They aren't against conversions or rule of cool, they're against things being unclear because it doesn't have the right weapons on it, or because it's modeled in such a way to give the person who has it an unfair advantage.

The Dragon replacing a Fire Prism was a real example from the campaign weekend I went to. And it was awesome. There was nothing unclear about it at all. You can see the two of them in this image.

Those aren't dragons.

This is a High Elf Dragon:

 pretre wrote:
+
Non GW parts?

Also, why would you bin them? Do you only play at WW?

The bin them was a bit of self indulgent hyperbole, my apologies.

However.

"If there is a model available for any given
unit, we expect you to use the correct model."

So, I can't use my Captain Korvydae model as a Blood Ravens Sergeant. And, as an Apothecary model already exists...

 Compel wrote:
However.
"If there is a model available for any given
unit, we expect you to use the correct model."

So, I can't use my Captain Korvydae model as a Blood Ravens Sergeant. And, as an Apothecary model already exists...

You can just pre-approve it as they have listed counts-as examples and those are way less severe than Centurion = Oblit (their example).

In other words, you'll be fine.

Meh, who cares about the code. If you're army isn't painted or using the right stuff well that's up to GW to decide. It is their tourneys. I don't know many people that bother with the big tourneys and really don't care to. What's the point in playing a game if you're not playing for fun?

I'd gladly open my wallet for a plastic T-Hawk and plastic SoB though

I love how you can be thrown out of the tourney for not having the correct rules interpretation.

 skyth wrote:
I love how you can be thrown out of the tourney for not having the correct rules interpretation.

I think that is a rather broad (and incorrect) interpretation of this bullet:

Knowingly interpreting the rules of the game
in your favour to take advantage of another
player.

There's a difference between having a different rules interpretation and trying to interpret the rules in your own favor when you know that it isn't correct.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You may need your eyes checked. Only full proxies where banned, conversions are on a case-by-case approval basis.

Of course their definition of "proxy" isn't the same one that the rest of us use. Their example of an illegal proxy is adding a scope to a Cadian lasgunner to make a storm trooper, when a storm trooper is just a guardsman with a fancy gun. That's blatantly a case of "buy the official model or don't play".

Please point to me where in the rule packet where they list that example? Per the rule packet:

A “proxy miniature” is a model that is standing
in for something else and has not been changed
in any way. These are not allowed at any of our
events. A Cadian Shock Trooper cannot be a
Genestealer, a Tyranid Ravener cannot be a
Fiend of Slaanesh, a Savage Orc with a large
ball and chain cannot be a Mangler Squig.

And as is also pointed out, if you are concerned about a conversion, write in ahead. PP has a very restrictive policy regarding conversions on their tournaments, more so than this, but whenever that is brought up in WMH discussions, they just say write head, most tournament organizers won't ban an army if it is done well.

Most of this thread can be summed up as:

Poster 1: I didn't read the document and am angry about something that I think is in it!
Poster 2: You know how I know you didn't read the document?
Poser 3: Plastic Thunderhawk!

dkellyj wrote:
But if they want to dictate those rules to FLGS and Indi-Tournys..

Citation needed.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
As someone who plays almost exclusively with either the primary or ally being counts-as these days I have accepted that I need to send in photos of my completed army for major events.

This all day long. Most big events require you to clear conversions or count-as ahead of time. Most also operate by rule of cool and are really just trying to make sure no one tries to sneak by some modeled for advantage gak. GW doing it is no different than anyone else doing it.

 Hulksmash wrote:
The only real issue I have is the non-gw parts thing. We had a local GW store open up and I was going to participate in their armies on parade (excuse to paint some more stuff for my armies) but the 100% gw parts (up from 50% GW from back in the day) meant I couldn't attend. But that's the only gripe and I don't expect this to expand to events they don't provide any support for so it's a non-worry for me.

The non-GW parts thing makes since seeing as it's Warhammer World. I mean back before we had so many competitors for alternate bits GW used to require conversions in their events contained a certain percentage of actual model parts. With it being so easy to get full models that look a lot like the official versions it's no real surprise they'd push a little further and just say that all the parts need to be GW (though I'm betting they won't ban sculpted sections and the like, so if people are good with the green stuff they're probably safe).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Compel wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

It seems rather clear to me that their idea of a proxy is actually not that far off what we think of in some respect (dragon replacing a Falcon). They aren't against conversions or rule of cool, they're against things being unclear because it doesn't have the right weapons on it, or because it's modeled in such a way to give the person who has it an unfair advantage.

The Dragon replacing a Fire Prism was a real example from the campaign weekend I went to. And it was awesome. There was nothing unclear about it at all. You can see the two of them in this image.

Those aren't dragons.

This is a High Elf Dragon:

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?19081-Eldar-Exodite-converted-army&p=322466&viewfull=1#post322466

The dragon was actually a Scorpion.

These rules have always been around for GW tournament play I thought... Been about 6 or so years since I last went to one, since they died out, so I guess there was a period in there that this wasn't the case.

Without sounding rude, has anyone actually read the opening post? How many people is it really likely to affect?

It's like saying "No alcohol allowed at all parties ... that are attended by Bjorn Borg!", and then people getting really upset that they can no longer drink at parties. I think we're probably talking about similar percentages of demographic here.