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Statistically speaking, if we just regard the 4+ jink save White Scars bikers get (disregarding their other CT bonuses) and compared it with the 5+ jink and 6+ FNP Iron Hands bikers get, are the latter more survivable?

According to my intuition both buffs add 16.66% extra chance of passing a die roll than vanilla SM. Except you take the White Scars die roll when rolling for jink (i.e. when you cant roll regular armor saves), while you take the Iron Hands FNP after failing either a cover save roll or an armor save roll.

Depends what you shoot them with. White Scars will be more durable against Demolisher Cannons. Iron Hands will be more durable against lasguns.

Against something inbetween, where the target can't use his armor save but still gets FNP, the White Scars should come out ahead. But it's a close thing.

The cover saves assume the bikes moved. In close combat, Iron Hands will have the advantage with a 6 FNP.
Also remember that more and more weapons in the game are able to ignore cover, giving models with FNP a slight advantage here as well.

So, as long as the bikes are moving I'd say the survivability is statistically equal for both, but in the situations above, Iron Hands will have a slight advantage.

Obviously, any circumstance where cover doesn't come into play will favor the Iron Hands. But keep in mind that White Scars also lets you reroll dangerous terrain tests and grants the unit Hit & Run.

Actually, they auto-pass DT tests, which does count for survivability. I personally prefer White Scars over Iron Hands for all their neat tricks and abilities, but Iron Hands, in my opinion, are ever so slightly more survivable over the length of a game, than are White Scars.

You meant they ignore dangerous terrain. On top of that they get +1S HoW.

Talking survival power here, not damage.

Anyway, the whole "durability" situation clearly favor IH when you look at characters, who gets "it will not die", making multi-wound guys possibly heal up if not dealt with outright.

They're both vulnerable against helldrakes

Captain obvious strikes again

Being able to ignore dangerous tests is very helpful -- and something that's hard to get at first glance.

Every time your consolidating in assault through difficult terrain, your making a test. Every time you consolidate out of combat, your making a test, etc...

While you only have a 1/18 chance of failing each test, you will cause problems with your armies due to the sheer volume of tests on terrain heavy boards.

Not really impressed actually.
Even with IH you will take a wound 5/108 times (once every 21.6 checks.)
And how many checks WOULD you take over a game? unlikely more then 20 even in full bike army. the improvement is so minor from that point to none at all its hardly a subject, compared to the MUCH more common threat of getting shot by small arms fire.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Statistically speaking, if we just regard the 4+ jink save White Scars bikers get (disregarding their other CT bonuses) and compared it with the 5+ jink and 6+ FNP Iron Hands bikers get, are the latter more survivable?

According to my intuition both buffs add 16.66% extra chance of passing a die roll than vanilla SM. Except you take the White Scars die roll when rolling for jink (i.e. when you cant roll regular armor saves), while you take the Iron Hands FNP after failing either a cover save roll or an armor save roll.

Yeah but the Iron Hands Chapter Master beatstick on the bike also gets It Will Not Die making him the hardest thing to kill since The Hulk.

 BoomWolf wrote:
And how many checks WOULD you take over a game? unlikely more then 20 even in full bike army.

That depends on many factors
- Do you plan on assaulting? Every consolidation phase causes another test.
- How terrain dense is your board?
- How many bikes do you bring?

Much like Eldar WaveSerpents don't need ghostwalker matrix's to perform -- you don't need the ability to ignore dangerous tests. However, if you have that ability you can use terrain to your advantage instead of your disadvantage.

For example, when I start the game, most of my bikes will be touching any area terrain I can manage. This is because if I get seized upon or I am not going first, then I can at least claim a 5+ cover save. When working against armies that can cause problems, I will purposely put myself in difficult terrain to lower the chances of getting assaulted. ie - assaulting 8" through difficult terrain is much more difficult than in non-difficult.

You can play to simply avoid terrain, but that makes your game harder, as your losing precious board space. This is an image of a game I was playing last weekend. See how I have 25 bikes here hitting my opponents flank. On the following turn, I went straight through those ruins and assaulted lootas/grots/boys with all my bikes.


Lets be clear. I'm not saying that "Ignoring terrain is the reason you take white scars". You take white scars for the hit and run, +1 STR HoW, +1 cover save, and ignore difficult terrain. The purpose of my addressing the difficult terrain part is that it was not previously addressed in the thread.

Edit : To those people who claim you can run 40 or 50 bikes with no space issues, I would like to again point to that image above. Where would you be able to double the bikes and not lose the ability to shoot? With an 18" range on grav guns, you can't just keep putting bodies on the table and expect results. Your --could-- outflank and use those to resupply the casualties you will take -- but its been my experience its better to have units that can directly impact the enemy while you are approaching them.

Currently IH are better simply because of all the ignore cover around these days.

I think that would make Iron Hands the better chapter tactics, no? After all, the White Scars bikes - apart from the 4+ cover, actually only have marginal buffs, with Hit & Run being the best of the bunch.

But with Iron Hands you'll get bonuses even if you are not fielding bikes. Your tac squads, your assault marines, your centurions, your devs, all of them benefit from the 6+ FNP. Then all your multi-wound characters have the IWND which surprisingly gives them their wound back on a 5+, not 6+, and same applies to all your vehicles as well. And finally your techmarines add +1 to their repair roll.

Better if you have a decent supply of vehicles in your force and a slightly more focused on shooting.

White scars are decent if only for hit and run, great for assault based forces.

Though, drop pods with IWND is hilarious.

I would actually rank white scars as more survivable. You know what resists small arms fire, helldrakes, and Tau ML/riptides better than 3+/FnP? Not being able to be shot as you are in CC...hit and run is a huge benefit to biker armies and should really be factored in.

Labmouse42 is right that the ignore dangerous terrain should not be discounted. The ability to drive into ruins and then drive through after using the LoS blocking parts of the ruins can make or break a game. Normally if you try to do so with IH you will loose a few bikers. With WS you loose nothing and gain greatly.

Having said that the FnP is a nice benefit but the real meat of the IH chapter tactics is IWND stormravens and IWND EW chapter masters. There is also huge benefits if you take FW vehicles and dreadnaughts which are tougher higher point affairs which benefit more from IWND.

If you take some ravenwing DA allies you can stick Sammy in a unit and give them skilled rider and stick the CM in with a unit of black knights. This way the IH bikers get ignore dangerous terrain and a +1 jink.

Including characters yes, but lack of scout makes them inferior bikers, although post =I= scout armies may be a thing of the past.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Including characters yes, but lack of scout makes them inferior bikers, although post =I= scout armies may be a thing of the past.

just another nail in the coffin of meelee in 6th, and another boon to taudar. So stupid.

Assault was never really dead in 6th, contrary to the popular opinion; See: Screamerstar, Flying Circus, Seer Council, Beastpacks. Wraithstars, Houndspam.

Skulls only really hurt Houndspam and biker armies, but not by a huge margin.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Assault was never really dead in 6th, contrary to the popular opinion; See: Screamerstar, Flying Circus, Seer Council, Beastpacks. Wraithstars, Houndspam.

Note some general similarities in those lists. They don't all have all these traits, but most will have some or more of them.
- Very fast units
- 2++ rerollable saves for multiple of them.
- Lots of wounds in units.
- Use of psychic powers/grimoire to maximize effect
- Cheap for the amount of damage they do.
Yes. Those are the few unit types that can pull off assault in 6th. (You forgot chaos spawn lists)

Now try and build a DE wytch cult army. How about an ork tide? What about BA jump pack assault lists? SW thunderwolves? How about daemon troop spam?

That's why you hear 'assault is dead'. It works for a very small percentage of units, but for the vast majority of the codex's you just can't make assault work.

Are people assaulting much with their white scars bikers? I'm Very interested in this.

It depends what I'm playing against.

I'll assault wave serpents to stuff krak gernades under it.
I'll use my chapter master squad to assault a target like a riptide or wraithknight. Heck, he will assault nearly anything within 17".
I'll assault weak assault troops I know I can sweep. Cultists, lootas, fire warriors, etc..

Edit : Thinking about it more -- I can't actually think of a single game were I did NOT assault at the RTT I went to last weekend.

Is hit and run working well? I'm yet to finish my biker force so just curios. Does it aid survivability or is it purely to maximize damage output?

Jamo wrote:
Is hit and run working well? I'm yet to finish my biker force so just curios. Does it aid survivability or is it purely to maximize damage output?

Its hilarious at times. I'll often assault with my chapter master, hit and run on my opponents turn, move ~10" away with the hit and run, move 12" on my turn, then assault another target 5" away -- hitting a target that was 27" from the first target. Its a great way to 'bounce' to be in range of the target you want to engage (riptide) while beating up a weaker target.

Sounds like fun! Cheers labmouse

 labmouse42 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Assault was never really dead in 6th, contrary to the popular opinion; See: Screamerstar, Flying Circus, Seer Council, Beastpacks. Wraithstars, Houndspam.

Note some general similarities in those lists. They don't all have all these traits, but most will have some or more of them.
- Very fast units
- 2++ rerollable saves for multiple of them.
- Lots of wounds in units.
- Use of psychic powers/grimoire to maximize effect
- Cheap for the amount of damage they do.
Yes. Those are the few unit types that can pull off assault in 6th. (You forgot chaos spawn lists)

Now try and build a DE wytch cult army. How about an ork tide? What about BA jump pack assault lists? SW thunderwolves? How about daemon troop spam?

That's why you hear 'assault is dead'. It works for a very small percentage of units, but for the vast majority of the codex's you just can't make assault work.

But....THAT MAKES NO SENSE.
Even if you take shooting out of the equasion entirely, these units are just BETTER at asault then the wytch cults, ork tides, thunderwolves, BA jumpers, etc.
Its like saying "shooting is dead" because bolter bastion DA cant quite compete with tau tripletides, or that mech is dead because razorspam are less potent then serpentspam.

When in the history of the game did every single build, nay, even every single codex held its own in a competitive setting?
The sheer number of possible builds dictates that some will, by nature, be more powerful then others.

Assault isn't dead, "marine stop them all with no effort because marines" is dead. orks where not a factor for a while now, and wytches were never quite there.
And demon troop spam, now that's just silly. using the fact that an assault army in a codex does not work, while THREE other assault armies from the very same codex DO work-its just using the codex wrong.
(and nids steamrollers still have some presence, even if its only with tervigon spam ATM.)

 labmouse42 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Assault was never really dead in 6th, contrary to the popular opinion; See: Screamerstar, Flying Circus, Seer Council, Beastpacks. Wraithstars, Houndspam.

Note some general similarities in those lists. They don't all have all these traits, but most will have some or more of them.
- Very fast units
- 2++ rerollable saves for multiple of them.
- Lots of wounds in units.
- Use of psychic powers/grimoire to maximize effect
- Cheap for the amount of damage they do.
Yes. Those are the few unit types that can pull off assault in 6th. (You forgot chaos spawn lists)

Now try and build a DE wytch cult army. How about an ork tide? What about BA jump pack assault lists? SW thunderwolves? How about daemon troop spam?

That's why you hear 'assault is dead'. It works for a very small percentage of units, but for the vast majority of the codex's you just can't make assault work.

I agree here. People point to a few deathstar units that are able to make it into close combat and then yell that assault is not dead and they completely disreagard that anything else outside those deathstars gets killed very easily without much effort.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:

But....THAT MAKES NO SENSE.
Even if you take shooting out of the equasion entirely, these units are just BETTER at asault then the wytch cults, ork tides, thunderwolves, BA jumpers, etc.
Its like saying "shooting is dead" because bolter bastion DA cant quite compete with tau tripletides, or that mech is dead because razorspam are less potent then serpentspam.

When in the history of the game did every single build, nay, even every single codex held its own in a competitive setting?
The sheer number of possible builds dictates that some will, by nature, be more powerful then others.

Assault isn't dead, "marine stop them all with no effort because marines" is dead. orks where not a factor for a while now, and wytches were never quite there.
And demon troop spam, now that's just silly. using the fact that an assault army in a codex does not work, while THREE other assault armies from the very same codex DO work-its just using the codex wrong.
(and nids steamrollers still have some presence, even if its only with tervigon spam ATM.)

It makes perfect sense. The only units that get into assault have to pull some ridiculous stuff out the bag in order to do it. i.e. 2++ re-rollable saves. There shouldn't be a 2++ save in the game nevermind a 2++ re-rollable one, not to mention that not every army has access to a 2++ save. Only two lists of the top of my head get one in a reliable manner, Eldar/Dark Eldar combo and Daemons. The other armies that get into close combat are flying Monsterous Cretures and thats only because you're usually hitting them on 6s cause they are flying. Once again who gets access to flying MCs?

Most armies are left without an assault option, even new ones. Blood Angels don't have any of that ridiculous stuff and although they don't have a new codex, thats the point I am making. They are having to make the new assault units ridiculous just in order to survive the shooting phases to get to CC in the first place.

This is the reason why the current marines codex got a whole lot of scout. Its because if they didn't, then they wouldn't make it into CC. Its the reason why marines can now take a 3++ character with Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain and It will not Die. The amount of ridiculous rules that the Space Marine Chapter Master/Captain gets access to in order to make him and his unit survivable is just way over the top.

 BoomWolf wrote:
When in the history of the game did every single build, nay, even every single codex held its own in a competitive setting?
The sheer number of possible builds dictates that some will, by nature, be more powerful then others

This is an invalid question. If you define builds as 'any army list put together' then you will never have every list be equal. There are, however, a handful of key builds that can be defined.
: Assault
: Vehicle Spam
: Gun Line
: Alpha Strike
: Deathstar
: MC
: Flyer
: Attrition

Lets remove the concept of 'key builds' from codex's. Look at the criteria for generating a powerful assault army.
- Very fast units
- 2++ rerollable saves for multiple of them.
- Lots of wounds in units.
- Use of psychic powers/grimoire to maximize effect
- Cheap for the amount of damage they do.
These traits are not limited to a single book. Any book that can produce these traits can make an effective assault army. In the game today there are 3 books that can build based upon those critiera. CD/CSM or Eldar/DE. 'Nids are not in that list -- they are winning 48.94% of their GT games when recorded by Torrent of Fire, and are ranked #17 of winning armies.

In a similar way, you can generate a list for a successful shooty army, vehicle army, alpha strike army, etc. What your looking for is the capacity to deliver that set of traits.

The Point
Codex's are strongly biased twords a particular kind/kinds of builds. You don't see assault based Guard builds or MC based marine builds.

So when you have codex's that are focused on assault, but cannot produce an effective assault army (Nids, Orks, BA) there is a big problem. Other codex's have assault elements that simply don't work. (SoB)

That's why you hear people say "Assault is Dead" Provided your using one of the three codex's that can produce an assault based build your fine. If your using anything else - your not. And that's not fair to those people who want to play something like BA.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
When in the history of the game did every single build, nay, even every single codex held its own in a competitive setting?
The sheer number of possible builds dictates that some will, by nature, be more powerful then others

This is an invalid question. If you define builds as 'any army list put together' then you will never have every list be equal. There are, however, a handful of key builds that can be defined.
: Assault
: Vehicle Spam
: Gun Line
: Alpha Strike
: Deathstar
: MC
: Flyer
: Attrition

Lets remove the concept of 'key builds' from codex's. Look at the criteria for generating a powerful assault army.
- Very fast units
- 2++ rerollable saves for multiple of them.
- Lots of wounds in units.
- Use of psychic powers/grimoire to maximize effect
- Cheap for the amount of damage they do.
These traits are not limited to a single book. Any book that can produce these traits can make an effective assault army. In the game today there are 3 books that can build based upon those critiera. CD/CSM or Eldar/DE. 'Nids are not in that list -- they are winning 48.94% of their GT games when recorded by Torrent of Fire, and are ranked #17 of winning armies.

In a similar way, you can generate a list for a successful shooty army, vehicle army, alpha strike army, etc. What your looking for is the capacity to deliver that set of traits.

The Point
Codex's are strongly biased twords a particular kind/kinds of builds. You don't see assault based Guard builds or MC based marine builds.

So when you have codex's that are focused on assault, but cannot produce an effective assault army (Nids, Orks, BA) there is a big problem. Other codex's have assault elements that simply don't work. (SoB)

That's why you hear people say "Assault is Dead" Provided your using one of the three codex's that can produce an assault based build your fine. If your using anything else - your not. And that's not fair to those people who want to play something like BA.

Very well said.

I think you summed it up better than I did. Nobody ever said that assault didn't happen at all, but assault is now a few units with ridiculous rules and combos in order to make them effective. It by no means can be considered standard.

On the other side of the fence it is standard shooting units that both Tau and Eldar use in order to win games on the table.

1) Broadsides - Armed with HYMPs and SMS with drones. This unit does not need anything else in order to be effective at doing its job. Its a classic ground troop. It doesn't need to fly, it doesn't need a ridiculous invulnerable save it doesn't need to be mobile.

2) Riptide - Effective unit. Only markerlights are needed to make it effective and markerlights are pretty standard for a Tau army. Once again it doesn't need to fly and it doesn't need to move ridiculously fast although it is a very mobile unit but on average you're moving 13" a turn. Bikers can move a lot faster than that.

3) Shurikan weapons - Standard weapon in the Eldar codex that lots of units can take. In the case of the Eldar codex I don't even need to name a unit, I only need to name a weapon type.

4) Grav weapons - Surprisingly the SM answer to Riptides isn't a combat option but another gun. So basically to counter a Riptide (a shooty unit), they give Space Marines a shooting weapon type to do it.

These are just a few examples but I'm sure others can come up with more.