Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

With the new Space Marine codex and the Forge World Character update two Librarians really stand out as being fantastic, Loth and Tigurius, the question is who is better for what reasons?

Tigurius
Tigurius seems better as a force multiple allowing re-roll for reserves and a friendly squad to re-roll to hits once a game via his warlord trait.
He also has access to a wide range of powers at Mastery Level 3; Biomancy, Telepathy, Telekinesis and Divination and can reroll his powers generated meaning he will have a great change at getting the useful powers you want. Divinataion can really buff shooting units in a space marine army which is where he appears to shine, sitting back with a shooty squad buffing surrounding units.
Another feature that benefits Tigurius greatly is his rule allowing him to re-roll failed psychic tests meaning he will rarely fall to perils of the warp, a real boon to his survibaliy when combined with his three wounds making him somewhat harder to kill, he does lack an 2+ and any form of invulnerable save.

Loth
Similar but arguably better than Tigurius Loth as Mastery Level 3 can select his powers from Biomancy, Telepathy, Telekinesis so while he lacks access to the buffers that come from Divination that greatly benefits Tigurius, he will always get the powers he wants in the other three disciplines.
Another main strength that Loth has over Tigurius is his improved combat ability through 3 attacks, his force axe and 2++ save which will ensure he stays alive, though he only has a regular Librarian two wound. Still while he should probably avoid combat he seems quite capable of holding his own and by killing enemy Pskyers he gains you 1+ killpoint as warlord which is a nice but situational bonus. A side note to this is Loth's access to decent Honor Guard which can combine with him for a powerful CC unit.

So the way I see it for virtually the same cost 165 or 175 points, Tigurius is more of a supportive or force multiple, giving your army access to Divination while ensuring you reserves while Loth is for a more aggressive role with superior combat ability and better survivability thanks to force axe and his 2+ (2++) save which gels nicely with his access to honor guard allowing for a powerfull CC unit.

Tigger, as Loth be a Forgeword character so a decent portion of groups just dont accept it.

Allowed though its as you said. Tigger is a support and does it well, while Loth can be one heck of a psychic monster.

It's worth noting that Loth has to select all three of his powers from the same discipline as well. That's still VERY powerful, but he can't take Puppet Master AND Iron Arm, or what have you.

I'm of the opinion that an HQ that acts as a force multiplier is ALWAYS better than an HQ that is just powerful in and of itself, but I allow room for the idea that I could be wrong.

How does Loth's 2++ work?

Tigurius. As said in the first response, not everyone accepts FW, so you'll have a lot of people cry foul if you beat them using him. Tiggy is fairly safe from complaints, other than those who hate SCs. Both seem powerful in their own right, but I don't care for UMs, so no Tiggy, and no experience a/ FW rules.

Lo and behold. Forge world has some broken rules.

There is a reason the adepticon survey results showed over 50% do not want forge world and only 20% want unrestricted access to it.

 Eldarain wrote:
How does Loth's 2++ work?

Loth has a 2+ invulnerable? Is it for a turn? Game? WTF?

 labmouse42 wrote:
Lo and behold. Forge world has some broken rules.

And yet, strangely, the votes thus far fall on the side of Tigurius, which, by your statement, would suggest Loth is not broken enough? Ironically, FW actually toned him down a bit (he used to roll for six power from one of the disciplines).

As a Red Scorpions player, naturally I would choose Loth over Tigurius. However, as already stated, Loth is primarily a beat stick, and can do it well with Biomancy, while Tigurius helps the whole army. And, keep in mind, if Loth is going to be using his 2++, he only gets two warp charges to play with.

By the way, for those who do not know Loth's rules: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/badabupdate-v2.pdf

 labmouse42 wrote:
Lo and behold. Forge world has some broken rules.

There is a reason the adepticon survey results showed over 50% do not want forge world and only 20% want unrestricted access to it.

Frontline Gaming's poll results show the exact opposite, of course. There is a huge selection bias in both polls, I imagine, but since the Frontline poll is being taken of people who actually played a tournament in which unrestricted FW was allowed, maybe they have a more useful opinion.

Anyway, there are 1000 pro-anti FW threads open. The original poster asked about a FW character, so maybe we should assume that they are intellegent enough to know whether or not they are going to be able to use a FW unit.

Tiggy is overall a better choice as Div is the best of the disciplines for use with SM.

The UM CT is also usually a little better than RS CT as TAC squads gaining FnP tends to be worse than IH 6+ FnP or the 3 UM abilities (which despite being hard to use right can be incredible)

In specific builds Loth is great. I use him occasionally as a power blobb enabler as he can get endurance on the power blobb and allow them to be relentless and FnP. He is also great in certain Dev Cents builds.

In before Peregrine. Post Chapter Approved, you don't need your opponent's permission to play Forge World Chapter Approved, you just need to inform them of what the rules are.

If they don't wish to play with you, that's their problem.

I struggled with the Tigurius vs. Sevrin dilemma for the longest time until Codex =I= came out. Now I just have an allied Div inquisitor and run Sevrin Loth.

On balance, however, Tigurius is the better choice for most armies.

 Eldarain wrote:
How does Loth's 2++ work?

Each turn he can chose to spend one warp charge to make his normal 2+ save into an iinvulnerable 2++, its pretty good

I get the whole forge world argument thing but I'm obviously bias towards using FW as I play Red Scorpions and have Allied Elysian Drop Troops for some insane reason, also most people I play are fine with FW rules and models

 tomjoad wrote:
Frontline Gaming's poll results show the exact opposite, of course. There is a huge selection bias in both polls,

Frontline Gaming also pushes forge world consistently at the tourney level. Look at this post from Reecius teasing Blackmoor about FW.

Saying a front line gaming poll shows FW support is like saying the majority of Fox News watchers don't like Obamacare.1

My beef with FW actually is not that 10% of the units are completely broken and over the top. After all, the main rules have roughly the same percentage. You don't see fire warriors allied with autarchs winning events. You see riptides and buffmanders/farseers.

My beef is that its prohibitively expensive in an already expensive hobby. An eldar hornet costs $56.53, where a wave serpent costs $44.50. Some quality retailers even offer a 20% discount on that, bringing the cost to $35.60. This means the FW model is 58% more expensive than the normal GW line model.

This game already has enough problems discouraging people who don't have the funds to buy the winning models. If we bring in FW, I only see that gap increasing.

1 I do not mean to say Reecius is akin to Fox News, Rupert Murdock, Robert Ailes, or Satan. I like Reecius a lot. He produces great videos, and is a great asset to the community.
I buy all my online purchases from his store, and suggest others do the same due to the great customer support he and Frankie provide!

Johnson101 wrote:
every gamer is different in opinion I guess though depending on their local scene and buddies

That' probably the best quote I've heard on dakka all week.
If only everyone were as insightful as you I think there would be a lot less of angry discussion on these forums

Generally Loth will be better. While people flip over his 2++, he has two wounds, meaning he dies fast anyways. (how many times have terminators died to massed bolter fire) Rather than being incredibly tough, he provides the ability to CHOOSE powers, which is what makes him the best psyker in the game. perfect timing, misfortune, and prescience makes him a buff monster. Iron arm, endurance, and Warp Speed (or life leech) turn him into a combat monster. His reliability in what role you need him in puts him WAY above all the ML3 and 4 psykers (yes Eldrad and Arhaman, hes better than you two at being a psyker).

Also, FW is fine. The vocal minority on this forum may not accept it, but in practice you will very rarely find a person who objects.

Tigurius is ok as a psyker, but suffered the unreliability of all psykers. He does have 3W and better non-psychic buffing, but im taking him for his psychic powers. His wide range of domains does give options however for vs different armies. However, since you are often required to roll more than once on a table to get the result you want, i would rather just pick.

 zephoid wrote:
Generally Loth will be better. While people flip over his 2++, he has two wounds, meaning he dies fast anyways. (how many times have terminators died to massed bolter fire) Rather than being incredibly tough, he provides the ability to CHOOSE powers, which is what makes him the best psyker in the game. perfect timing, misfortune, and prescience makes him a buff monster. Iron arm, endurance, and Warp Speed (or life leech) turn him into a combat monster. His reliability in what role you need him in puts him WAY above all the ML3 and 4 psykers (yes Eldrad and Arhaman, hes better than you two at being a psyker).

Also, FW is fine. The vocal minority on this forum may not accept it, but in practice you will very rarely find a person who objects.

Tigurius is ok as a psyker, but suffered the unreliability of all psykers. He does have 3W and better non-psychic buffing, but im taking him for his psychic powers. His wide range of domains does give options however for vs different armies. However, since you are often required to roll more than once on a table to get the result you want, i would rather just pick.

Except Loth does not have access to divination so he can't get prescience, perfect timing or misfortune. That is the reason Tigirius is better. 3 rolls on divination rerolling powers is generally better than picking powers of biomancy, telepathy and telekinesis.

PanzerLeader wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
Generally Loth will be better. While people flip over his 2++, he has two wounds, meaning he dies fast anyways. (how many times have terminators died to massed bolter fire) Rather than being incredibly tough, he provides the ability to CHOOSE powers, which is what makes him the best psyker in the game. perfect timing, misfortune, and prescience makes him a buff monster. Iron arm, endurance, and Warp Speed (or life leech) turn him into a combat monster. His reliability in what role you need him in puts him WAY above all the ML3 and 4 psykers (yes Eldrad and Arhaman, hes better than you two at being a psyker).

Also, FW is fine. The vocal minority on this forum may not accept it, but in practice you will very rarely find a person who objects.

Tigurius is ok as a psyker, but suffered the unreliability of all psykers. He does have 3W and better non-psychic buffing, but im taking him for his psychic powers. His wide range of domains does give options however for vs different armies. However, since you are often required to roll more than once on a table to get the result you want, i would rather just pick.

Except Loth does not have access to divination so he can't get prescience, perfect timing or misfortune. That is the reason Tigirius is better. 3 rolls on divination rerolling powers is generally better than picking powers of biomancy, telepathy and telekinesis.

It definitely depends on what you want out of your HQ. Tigirus is a far better force multiplier but Loth is infinitely better in combat.

Of course, something no one has mentioned is whether or not you actually want to use either's chapter tactics.

PanzerLeader wrote:
Except Loth does not have access to divination so he can't get prescience, perfect timing or misfortune. That is the reason Tigirius is better. 3 rolls on divination rerolling powers is generally better than picking powers of biomancy, telepathy and telekinesis.

Even though Tigurius has a good chance of getting his desired power, its no an absolute chance. He still can fail -- which can wreck your game plan.

Loth's ability to 'pick his powers' can allow you to build your army around it.

 labmouse42 wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
Except Loth does not have access to divination so he can't get prescience, perfect timing or misfortune. That is the reason Tigirius is better. 3 rolls on divination rerolling powers is generally better than picking powers of biomancy, telepathy and telekinesis.

Even though Tigurius has a good chance of getting his desired power, its no an absolute chance. He still can fail -- which can wreck your game plan.

Loth's ability to 'pick his powers' can allow you to build your army around it.

One of the best things about Loth. Bear in mind this can also mean that he bounces around the field via Gate of Infinity WITH A SQUAD OF GRAV-CENTURIONS. Oh, and that reminds me, SM and Tau are BB, meaning that Farsight+Loth+grav-centurions is a thing now.

Tigirus is still guaranteed two powers: prescience and his ability to re-roll reserves, assuming he rolls on divination, of course (but why would you not?)

 tomjoad wrote:

I'm of the opinion that an HQ that acts as a force multiplier is ALWAYS better than an HQ that is just powerful in and of itself, but I allow room for the idea that I could be wrong.

This.

Question - can Sevrin pick his powers or does he roll just like everyone else?





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Never mind, after looking at the PDF, I've found my answer.


With Sevrin actually being able to pick his own powers, I'd say he's just slightly better than Tigurius.


Iron Arm, Endurance + Enfeeble


Terrify, Puppet Master, Invisibility


Nasty.

 jy2 wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:

I'm of the opinion that an HQ that acts as a force multiplier is ALWAYS better than an HQ that is just powerful in and of itself, but I allow room for the idea that I could be wrong.

This.

Question - can Sevrin pick his powers or does he roll just like everyone else?

He picks, but never from Divination. Obviously, you can choose 3 Biomancy powers that him him very hard to kill/good in combat, or 3 Telepathy powers that give him a large offensive capacity (plus Invisibility, I guess), but it's not a trade I'd really want to make.

He picks his powers, but only from a single discipline but is limited to TK, Bio and TP. He used to be able to mix and match in the old FAQ.

I made a post about my Farsight/ Loth/ Gravturion deathstar some time ago but noone seemed to care about it

 jy2 wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:

I'm of the opinion that an HQ that acts as a force multiplier is ALWAYS better than an HQ that is just powerful in and of itself, but I allow room for the idea that I could be wrong.

This.

Question - can Sevrin pick his powers or does he roll just like everyone else?





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Never mind, after looking at the PDF, I've found my answer.


With Sevrin actually being able to pick his own powers, I'd say he's just slightly better than Tigurius.


Iron Arm, Endurance + Enfeeble


Terrify, Puppet Master, Invisibility


Nasty.

You're forgetting another combination: Gate of Infinity, Crush, and his 2+ to 2++ save. As a standalone model the two you mentioned will most assuredly wreck face, but the capability to take a unit of Grav centurions and move them 24" with zero scatter via Farsight is ridiculous.


Also, in the words of that one commercial:

"can't we have both?" Just take Tigirius with a UM detachment and Loth with the RS detachment. Win.

 labmouse42 wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
Except Loth does not have access to divination so he can't get prescience, perfect timing or misfortune. That is the reason Tigirius is better. 3 rolls on divination rerolling powers is generally better than picking powers of biomancy, telepathy and telekinesis.

Even though Tigurius has a good chance of getting his desired power, its no an absolute chance. He still can fail -- which can wreck your game plan.

Loth's ability to 'pick his powers' can allow you to build your army around it.

I think my leaning towards Tiggy is based off his better fit into a TAC list. Ultramarine Chapter tactics are great for a TAC build and divination is the ultimate buffing lore set. Depending on the powers generated allows you to place him to best effect in a TAC list. You can build an army around Loth, but doing so opens up a bigger array of possible counters.

Arguably Prescience is the main reason you go div powers and since you can get an allied inquisitor with Psychotroke goodies and servo-skulls, I feel Sevrin + Ordo Xenos inqui is the way to go.

PanzerLeader wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
Except Loth does not have access to divination so he can't get prescience, perfect timing or misfortune. That is the reason Tigirius is better. 3 rolls on divination rerolling powers is generally better than picking powers of biomancy, telepathy and telekinesis.

Even though Tigurius has a good chance of getting his desired power, its no an absolute chance. He still can fail -- which can wreck your game plan.

Loth's ability to 'pick his powers' can allow you to build your army around it.

I think my leaning towards Tiggy is based off his better fit into a TAC list. Ultramarine Chapter tactics are great for a TAC build and divination is the ultimate buffing lore set. Depending on the powers generated allows you to place him to best effect in a TAC list. You can build an army around Loth, but doing so opens up a bigger array of possible counters.

Not really. You always have something in mind for both, and you try to see that through, whether it's a buff-machine tigirius or CC beatstick with Loth. Either way, they both serve a purpose and just because one can choose his powers doesn't mean that he is suddenly more vulnerable.

Loth cost 175 points and does nothing to buff your army, but Tigger can both buff friendly units, still have offensive capabilities, and costs less. No contest IMO.

Lucarikx

 Lucarikx wrote:
Loth cost 175 points and does nothing to buff your army, but Tigger can both buff friendly units, still have offensive capabilities, and costs less. No contest IMO.

Lucarikx

What does Tigurius do to buff your army that a 55 point Inquisitor can't do? Chosing your powers from Bio/Tp/TI can do far more to buff your army.

The reason people rate Divination so highly is that there isn't a dud roll on the power chart, and you can revert to Prescience. Being able to cherry-pick powers from Bio/Tele/TP circumvents the main problem with those disciplines, namely a gakky Primaris and 2-3 dud powers on each table.

 McNinja wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
Except Loth does not have access to divination so he can't get prescience, perfect timing or misfortune. That is the reason Tigirius is better. 3 rolls on divination rerolling powers is generally better than picking powers of biomancy, telepathy and telekinesis.

Even though Tigurius has a good chance of getting his desired power, its no an absolute chance. He still can fail -- which can wreck your game plan.

Loth's ability to 'pick his powers' can allow you to build your army around it.

I think my leaning towards Tiggy is based off his better fit into a TAC list. Ultramarine Chapter tactics are great for a TAC build and divination is the ultimate buffing lore set. Depending on the powers generated allows you to place him to best effect in a TAC list. You can build an army around Loth, but doing so opens up a bigger array of possible counters.

Not really. You always have something in mind for both, and you try to see that through, whether it's a buff-machine tigirius or CC beatstick with Loth. Either way, they both serve a purpose and just because one can choose his powers doesn't mean that he is suddenly more vulnerable.

You're missing my main point. Any army built around what one character/unit brings to the fight is more open to hard counters than a TAC list. Building an army around Loth makes the army more vulnerable to bad matchups in a competitive standing than a TAC list.