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Been using my Iron Hands CM on a bike with The Shield eternus and the Burning Blade. Was wondering if players prefer the TH instead.

Even though the BB lacks the ability to instant kill most baddies i find that the s7 plus ap2 with high initiative preforms very well. In all cases the CM has not died and won all combats. In a number of combats it was the ability to go first that allowed the CM to win . However i see the plus sides to using a Thunder Hammer as well against such things as MCs /multi wound characters and even Vehicals.

The TH also saves me a few pointS. Was wondering how people have been gearing there CM and the results.

thx

I'd be very interested in peoples responses to this. I've just started a marine detachment for my GK, and I modeled my Captain with the Thunder Hammer. However, the more I look at the Burning Blade, it's very tempting...

Burning blade means no Shield of Eternal.

That's what invalidates the Burning Blade as a tool. The ability to give your IC EW is huge. It means that targets like wrathknights will no longer insta-gib your CM.

Labmouse

I guess it depends on how players are allowing it. I know a number of Tournaments allow it. We allowed the CM to in BFS the 11th co allows it and the NOVA faq atm allows. Im aware the enhanced armybuilder in the Marine codex allows it.

Yes i would say that if you participate in a club or tournament that restrics using 2 relics that the Shield Eternal and TH would be the best loadout.

However im not running into that issue.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Burning blade means no Shield of Eternal.

That's what invalidates the Burning Blade as a tool. The ability to give your IC EW is huge. It means that targets like wrathknights will no longer insta-gib your CM.

I guess it depends on your local group/region's interpretation of the rule. Most experiences I've encountered/read interpret the rule to allow it.

At the very least, taking the Hammer prevents any arguments about whether it's legal....

I prefer the Hammer because he is so tanky to begin with, you can pretty much guarantee he still gets a swing. Anything that would kill him between Init steps 5 and 1, probably isn't worth charging to begin with.
For your trouble, you save a bundle of points and gain ID against a very wide range of targets. Immediately you'll start scything apart special characters, anyone not on a Bike or Nurglite, and absolutely eviscerate multi-wound units like Nobs, Paladins or Warriors. Concussive goes a long way towards balancing Unwieldy and you get some anti-vehicle utility as well.

It also looks cooler.

I always take the TH for several reasons.
1) No rules arguements!
2) EW/3++/2+ means that there is very little that can kill him before he strikes.
3) ID T4
4) killing vehicles
5) concussive is useful against really big badies and vehicles

He is a very nice model and adds a great deal to an army.

i use burning blade, but that is because in my lgs, you can take multiple relics. Burning blade is so nice, killing everything before they can even strike is huge! and because its not special weapon you get a lot of attacks with it.

I go thunder hammer for my white scars. With a chapter master, bike, shield eternal, artificer armor and thunder hammer he is already pushing 250 points. There are some things I also like about the T hammer.

Points cost obviously
No chance to hurt yourself with the fire effect
The ability ( which has come in handy multiple times) to kill a T4 character with just one wound, such as a necron lord.
and don't forget, it also reduces your target to I1, I forget does it also auto shake vehicles still?

Anyway that ability to lower them to one has helped me fight swarmlord, and also saved me from someone hit and running and lighting up my squad with stupid shots next turn too.

Less points, Concussive, S8, there is no reason to take Burning Blade over Thunder Hammer unless you are using your CM to mow down squads instead of fighting other characters.

What is this rules argument? I can't find where the argument would be. Even if one relic replaces one weapon, you take both and slap him on a bike.

The argument is in the wording of how you replace weapons on the CM. And I hope this doesn't derail the thread, but basically it says you can replace a weapon for 1 relic. Some people read that as a weapon for a relic and can take multiple relics, some read it as 1 relic only.

My choice is always TH. My reasoning is I'd rather crush skulls than take them ;p. The burning blade seems better on a bike captain that your not counting on fighting off MCS and other Beaty characters.

Really? "You can replace one weapon with one of the following." I can see where the debate could come in, but I always read it as each relic takes the place of a weapon, especially considering that you can have a storm shield and two weapons. Yet another thing to spam the FAQ email about.

Either way, and especially for iron hands, I would do thunder hammer. You have the durability to outlast 99% of your opponents, and even against the best of the best in a challenge you can't really lose unless the dice hate you. With so much durability the fact that you hit last is pretty much a non-issue. Save the 25 points. Get yourself something nice.

Oh god lets not start that.

If on a bike and not taking a SE. id say BB as you gain the bonus attack for 2 CCW with a stock bolt pistol.

If taking the SE. TH easily as the SE denies 2 CCW bonus. + all everything else have pointed out.

I dont mind a non eternal warrior on a bike as there arnt that many St10 attacks to worry about. and if there are can be avoided.

Actually, there are quite a reasonable number of S10 attacks around these days. Basically any MC can do them. They're also nicely AP2. And there are a lot of MCs around these days.

If you're on a bike, you have some capability to ignore these threats with your mobility, but not having EW does limit target selection a bit.

Yeah... With EW, a chapter master can charge and reliably kill a Wraithknight. That's cray, yo.

Hello, this is a question for all of the people in gaming clubs that allow two relics and seem to know about tournaments allowing this. Do you/they also allow CSM to take multiple artifacts as well?

You could always take multiple artifacts with CSM there wasn't even any argument about it ever.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
You could always take multiple artifacts with CSM there wasn't even any argument about it ever.

Just FYI this was with a quick search.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/564048.page#6265837

There _has_ been discussion about this. I wasn't clear enough stating weapons. Taking both an axe of blind fury and a burning brand, as far as I know, is forbidden you're allowed one weapon swap. Similarly to the C:SM relics one for one. I believe RAW taking both is illegal as it's no longer a one for one swap, but I'm curious how others and tournaments do it.

I would go for the concussive thunderhammer. You are not going to kill the big baddies in one round of combat, you want them striking at the same time as you in further rounds. Worse case you kill each other at the same time. Better than them killing you first. Also can help make it so your other dudes get to strike as well.

 McNinja wrote:
Really? "You can replace one weapon with one of the following." I can see where the debate could come in, but I always read it as each relic takes the place of a weapon, especially considering that you can have a storm shield and two weapons. Yet another thing to spam the FAQ email about.

I agree. It seems a no-brainier to me. The idea was you replace the bolt pistol with a relic, a bolter, with a relic, etc...

But until GW releases a FAQ we have to rely upon specific rulings of GTs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thariinye wrote:
Actually, there are quite a reasonable number of S10 attacks around these days. Basically any MC can do them. They're also nicely AP2. And there are a lot of MCs around these days.

+1 to this. Without EW, even a riptide can smash you to death. Every ork warboss is a big threat. With EW, its much less of an issue.

 McNinja wrote:
Yeah... With EW, a chapter master can charge and reliably kill a Wraithknight. That's cray, yo.

Why is it "cray" he also COSTS the price of a wraithknight. It's not like this guy is cheap.

yes but he will easily pay back the points he kills, and by all the shots and damage he soaks up.

Thanks guys appreciate the input ill be giving the TH a go for some test games now due to the comments. Plus it allows me to use the extra points to add a couple more grvguns in my command squad.

I'd go with Thunder Hammer.
Most HQ that are likely to kill you, would strike at I6 or higher too (Abaddon, Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons, Swarmlord)

The only notable exceptions that come to my mind are Kharn the Betrayer (IIRC, on the charge he has 7 S6 AP2 attacks that hits on 2+ rerolling ones to hit and to wound, Init 5) and Ghazkull (sorry, will never learn to spell it)

The burning blade is great, but best on a bike guy. If you wanna use the shield, it favors a non-biker guy, simply because of str 8 and such.

Now of course, if your list needs your chapter master to charge crazy things, both weapons are valid honestly. Keep in mind the blade does blind, so it's fantastic against most low int armies.

I think the Shield does amazing even on a biker...but that's just me. :-)

I'd say a TH, as the Blade does remove the ability to Shield yourself.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Burning blade means no Shield of Eternal.

That's what invalidates the Burning Blade as a tool. The ability to give your IC EW is huge. It means that targets like wrathknights will no longer insta-gib your CM.

You can have both a BB and SE. You just can't have two BBs

Why not both?

My bike list has 2 chapter masters, one runs TH+Shield Eternal. The other runs BB+SS.

Admittedly in lists where I can only fit a single chapter master, my go-to guy is the TH+Shield Eternal setup. That EW on a 4 wound model is a bit too good to pass up.

I've yet to actually go to a club or tourney (4 total) since the CSM book hit that didn't allow more than one chaos relic or more than one SM relic