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So Codex: Inquisition just got an update (clarifying you can ally 2 Inquisitorial Detachments together, with one as primary, and changing DCA to power swords instead of power weapons ... just to start with ... both of which are pretty substantial). More updates are no doubt incoming.

There's been a pattern of digital codices getting several rapid fire updates over the month to two months after release. The problem with this is some of these changes and updates are substantial, and change how they are played and what they do.

I'm concerned about a problem where a tournament follows the "standard" 30-day window legalization, and someone shows up with all kinds of different updates present for his codex, and is either unwittingly (or wittingly) illegal, or simply faces a situation where none of the various attendees really know what the heck is going on with what.

My QUESTION for the group of attendees and TOs who troll Dakka is this - should we consider upping the release window legalization period for digital codices to 60 days, so that rapid fire updates and other things have a chance to settle, thus limiting the pain on attendees and organizers alike for ensuring folks are aware of and legally playing with the codices being brought.


The reason I'm asking this for the community as a whole is two-fold; 1) I'd love to see standards that have no impact on tournament format, mission, vision, etc. being propagated across a wider swathe of events; and 2) This is one where if there isn't a broad standard, people going from event to event won't be sure whether their digital dex is legal yet or not for that particular event.

I don't have a strong opinion yet, but I do find it irritating that they don't use patch notes or anything else ... just suddenly BAM there's a change (and sometimes a big one). In this case in particular, anyone who isn't a hardcore forum/blog troll and grabbed a copy of the eBook right at release may show up at a tournament over the next 40 days wielding power mauls and power axes on their inquisitorial death cults.

This is a pretty interesting topic, and one worth discussing considering how regularly we are starting to see digital releases as supplements / mini-armies. A couple of initial thoughts I have:

The idea of patch notes would be awesome. Unless GW starts to offer this, it may be something that we could look to a willing member(s) of the community to begin to compile. It certainly would take time, but maybe somebody is out there willing to do it.

With concern over rapid updates, I would actually have greater concern if the accepted window was pushed to be longer. Does that mean you would ignore all FAQ's and errata made for 2 whole months of the tournament date? Or just digital updates? To use the DCA example, I agree I would hate to see somebody roll up to a tournament with DCA's loaded up only to find they were substantially nerfed by the weapons change, but I'd much rather see that then a plethora of players rolling up with an army that has been invalidated by GW for almost two months.

With that in mind I think I would err on the side of shortening the update window if anything. Really curious though what others think, with how much these releases may start to change the game (especially with rumors that all codex releases will be shifted to digital only) I think this is an important conversation for tournament players and organizers to have.

The digital products in general pose a ton of problems for TOs.

What happens when someone has an ibook version and gets pushed an update during a tournament? At what point is that legal? How can we keep track of it?

It's a nightmare. And with so much digital content now, and a lot of it of suspect quality, its very hard for anyone to know for sure that they have the latest version of all the rules and any given time.

I personally think the 30 day release window for codices is fine. I agree with morgendonner that people will get upset if you keep them from their new army for two months.

I think it would be helpful if major tournaments set a one week FAQ policy. All updates, FAQs etc get locked a week before the event and it's up to the players to make sure they know the state of their rules at that time. I don't think major events have had explicit FAQ policies like they have had for codex releases.

A two month window for cool down is a good idea.

is there an example of a huge change that came out in outside of the 30 day window?
was it within the the 60 day window.

basicly the 30 day window means 30 days before the event the rules are fixed.
for example if GW releases a digital dex say feb 2. on march 3 or what ever the 30 day period starts the revision that was out on march 3rd is what you need to use for adepticon. if they make a huge change on March 15th that makes it awesome sauce too bad since that is the same as releasing a new codex.

the thirty day window is set up so organizers can be prepared for the event with known rules and issues.

As someone that has been preaching about this inevitablity from day one of the digital releases. I welcome the discussion. : )

The old ways maybe no longer manageable, so we may need to consider adjusting and managing our expectations.

I think a longer gestation period is warranted since it's a much newer form of technology. I am all for the use of supplements.

This appears to be a greater issue with "Supplimental" Dexes
We seem to be taking the responsability of making sure your army complies to the codexs updates out of the hands of the player and putting in the TO's hands. Personally im not a fan.

If your going to include Digital only suppliments in your list and "have the actual codex" you will be updated properly and will not show up to a Tournament with improperly modeled/geared armies.

My opinion would be that we as TO's should be looking more to enforce the requirement of players who use elements of "Digital only" codexes to have those codexes in hand.

What pisses me off more and more is seeing players show up with some printed off version of a digital only dex. If its digital only... we should expect to see there digital version of it. Im seeing more and more tournaments who "allow" forgeworld the requirement of not only having the rule.. but to actually have the book in hand.

btw and if a 60 day gestation period is needed i would say 30 days for print versions (normal dexes) and 60 days for digital only (suppliments)

So giving this some thought here is where I think I come down.

What is the current window for FAQs?

30 days?

I feel like we should keep the 30 day window.

TOs should send out a blanket Email to participants to re-download their digital editions (for the I book format you will know if there is an update available) prior to submitting their list at the 30 day window and not to re-download after the 30 day window has passed. We often already ask players to bring FAQ documents, I feel this is no different.

Then treat any illegal entry as we already do.

I pre-check lists and would let players know of illegal changes if I catch them.

I also agree with Ed- we should require having the actual book in hand (digital or otherwise.)

The issue you are going to have is that while the droids and the non-apple tablets can keep the older digital codex can the Apple stuff?

Can the silent update be turned off on an apple device?

 NeedleOfInquiry wrote:
The issue you are going to have is that while the droids and the non-apple tablets can keep the older digital codex can the Apple stuff?

Can the silent update be turned off on an apple device?

I had to manually download the update for my Sisters codex on my Ipad, so yes, that is possible.

Freezing the update 30 days out is a good idea, I think- that makes it just like the window for a normal codex release.

Yes you need to manually update your codices on the iPad I currently have one in my queue that I have not updated. The biggest difference is that the iPad version will let you know you have an update.

At AdeptiCon we never had a cut off for GW FAQs.

On the new Apple IOS. IBooks can depending on settings auto-update material.

I think you can keep the 30 day window for new books as you can still draw some clear lines there.

The issue is how to handle digital updates.

I think you just have to roll with most current available and except the ramifications associated.

So if Gw drops an FAQ the day before adepticon you guys go with it? Even if it changes point costs etc?

Potentially, yes. We would certainly evaluate it.

GW on a number of occasions dropped FAQ documents inside of our 30 day window. Generally those documents solve known issues, that an event would want to see resolved. They also tend to create others but that is another matter and we have always said that GW FAQ material takes priority over our event FAQ.

We will stick with our guidelines for next year's event and do not agree with a "Tournament Standard". Why should a digital book change what everyone has done for over 15 years?

Here is our info for reference:

4 week window for a new codex. Since books are released on Saturday now (and most events start on Saturday as well), if you say 30 days you really mean 35.

1 week window for a new FAQ. I like the idea of going up to the last minute but you have to draw a line somewhere. We do a one week cutoff and then allow 48 hours for list revisions.

Part of our guidelines are due to the early list submission so we can get ahead of the pile of lists before the event. This allows us to fully check every list early in the first round before it becomes an issue.

What we do, that would be easy for others to try, is have a full breakdown of the latest rules updates posted to our attendees and through our web presence. If you see that a Digital codex got an update, push a post about it!

...OBVIOUSLY TO's have no problem pushing posts

Thanks for the info, MechBoyz, it's helpful to see what you guys do

muwhe wrote:
At AdeptiCon we never had a cut off for GW FAQs.

On the new Apple IOS. IBooks can depending on settings auto-update material.

I think you can keep the 30 day window for new books as you can still draw some clear lines there.

The issue is how to handle digital updates.

I think you just have to roll with most current available and except the ramifications associated.

Agreed.

I think the only way this is viable as an across the board situation logistically is to use the most up to date version on the date of the tournament.

Now, if between the list submission date and the tournament date somehow points cost change, as happened in an Errata with the Helbrute (an often seen unit on the competitive circuit..... heh) then the original list submitted should remain the same regardless of points changes.

I think the burden of responsibility is on the player to have their own up to date literature. This includes competitive players who need to stay abreast of what opponents' rules are as well.

The TO can only ever be expected to have copies of the most up to date versions of the rules on the day of the tournament.

Anything else leaves the door open to serious confusion.

If it were me, I would require that the supplement must exist in hard cover format to be usable, but I know that is not a popular opinion. Do we really expect people to drag tablets around at tournaments now?

 Phazael wrote:
If it were me, I would require that the supplement must exist in hard cover format to be usable, but I know that is not a popular opinion. Do we really expect people to drag tablets around at tournaments now?

... especially when there's only 2 pages of rules why be tied to a laptop/ipad for tournaments - surely a print would do? I have too much stuff as it is without having to worry about extra electicals being left/dropped etc. Not that affects me personally yet, not being a Tau/Eldar player, but it might in the future.

I think it's reasonable to set a cutoff period for any rules updates, including official FAQs or digital edition updates, of a week prior to the event.

 ruminator wrote:

 Phazael wrote:
If it were me, I would require that the supplement must exist in hard cover format to be usable, but I know that is not a popular opinion. Do we really expect people to drag tablets around at tournaments now?

... especially when there's only 2 pages of rules why be tied to a laptop/ipad for tournaments - surely a print would do? I have too much stuff as it is without having to worry about extra electicals being left/dropped etc. Not that affects me personally yet, not being a Tau/Eldar player, but it might in the future.

People can and will fake things

so If you require an original GW book for print codexes (rather than a photocopy) you probably need to require an original digital version for the digital codexes

As someone who only uses his tablet at events I much prefer it to carrying the following:

Rulebook (the small one)
Codex
FAQ's
Allied Codex/Supplement

So instead of 4-5lbs of paper I can carry my less than a pound tablet. Which, since things are notated properly, is faster than looking stuff up in a book. And that doesn't even come close to the amount of space I saved.

I think the 30 day is fine. Most of the "updates" have happened within 2 weeks of the product being released and with very few exceptions (the condemnor for sisters and power weapons for DCA in Inquisition) have very little impact on the armies. And since errata/FAQ's have always been within 1-2 weeks of an event (or even day of) I'm not seeing the difference. Just send out a reminder email to everyone that if they are using an electronic only codex to redownload within 1 week (or whatever the cutoff is) of the event.

Just remember to include in that reminder not to download it again after the cut off.

Question for organizers.... Can you register and pay for your event the week before the event if there are openings or drops?

What happens if I had already updated my codexes on my ipad and last minute decided to attend your fun event?

I think you just have to roll with the current rules with all changes as of game day. I had my SoB update the day before a tournament. It was fine.

As a ipad owner, I do not want to wait to update my rules, especially a month to two months!!

Yea this discussion strikes me as a "Assume the worst of people" discussion. Will someone try to abuse the system? possibly, but here is the thing. I highly doubt that anyone who intentionally abuses the system will get very high before caught.

I think just deal with it as you go along if it comes up mention it but in general I feel that FAQ should be up to at least 2-3 days before hand as well as books a month/slightly less than a month(so if the book came out on the 6th and the tourney is the second they can still use it)

Here is the thing though as an organizer...if everyone else made their list using a pre-updated codex...and points costs/rules change now I have people playing with different rules. Do I just accept that everyone will have different rules for their books, or do I put a limit on the last rules update?

Honestly for GTs last minute attendance is pretty low very few people decide last minute to attend events that cost them hundreds of dollars.

Furthermore at least I am talking about stopping rules updates around list submission time (I ask 1 week out for my GT so I have time to check the lists) after which you cannot attend anyway.

For a regular small local event. It is probably not as big an issue.

The thing is that there are very few things that I have seen(if any) that are points adjustments(barring the helbrute). So at most there will be some units that will operate slightly differently.

I think however any of those armies that are working off something that could reliably be FAQed one way or the other are taking a risk anyway.