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Children, teens and casual gamers will continue to buy individual boxes of Scouts or Ork Boyz or Guardsmen or whatever here and there. It's what I always did when I was a kid, and I stayed in the hobby just fine. I'd have dreamed of being given/being able to afford a whole battleforce. Yeah, battleforces are good when you're starting out, but they're not the be-all and end-all you're making them out to be. Dial back the drama for once

Maybe they're removing all 30 or so battleforces/ battalions from the shelves to clear space for all the new specialist games they're going to be relaunching in hard plastic?

If it weren't for the battleforces I don't think my parents would have bought me warhammer all those years ago. Some parents will buy their kids whatever they want regardless of cost. However, most can't afford to do this even if they wanted to and will need bundles like the battleforces to help them out.

A friend of mine was interested in jumping into 40k a few months ago. He asked me how much it would cost to get a decent sized army and basic supplies. Sadly I informed him it would cost roughly $500 for a decent 1000 pt army, the required books and basic supplies. That is quite a steep barrier to entry.

My cousin plays MTG and since I know the rules from years ago, he invited me over for a booster draft. I paid $10 for 15 lands of each colour and $10-20 for 3-6 packs depending on the type of draft we do. I forgot how cheap most other game systems are. I know miniatures are much more expensive than cards.... but they still serve the same purpose.

I sure hope GW sticks with battleforces or if they are moving to larger bundles, then at least maintain a decent savings.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Maybe they're removing all 30 or so battleforces/ battalions from the shelves to clear space for all the new specialist games they're going to be relaunching in hard plastic?

Okay, people. Scarletsquig is clearly delusional and possibly dangerous. I think it we're going to have to do an intervention. Get the rope and blankets ready, I'll grab the chloroform.

 Breotan wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Maybe they're removing all 30 or so battleforces/ battalions from the shelves to clear space for all the new specialist games they're going to be relaunching in hard plastic?

Okay, people. Scarletsquig is clearly delusional and possibly dangerous. I think it we're going to have to do an intervention. Get the rope and blankets ready, I'll grab the chloroform.

It's OK, Scarletsquig is British and therefore not mad, just eccentric. Very eccentric in this case.

 Captain Blood wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Maybe they're removing all 30 or so battleforces/ battalions from the shelves to clear space for all the new specialist games they're going to be relaunching in hard plastic?

Okay, people. Scarletsquig is clearly delusional and possibly dangerous. I think it we're going to have to do an intervention. Get the rope and blankets ready, I'll grab the chloroform.

It's OK, Scarletsquig is British and therefore not mad, just eccentric. Very eccentric in this case.

No, I think Breotan is right. We may have to put him down. Hold still, Squiggy, this'll only take a minute...

In honesty the battle forces went up in price, and didn't offer anything more. If the newer larger bundles offer more, that also means (hopefully) more off in there as added bonuses for a large purchase.

I think a 200$ kit that gave you an effective 800-1200pts is worth it. As it is most players would have to purchase two battle forces to have an even remotely effective fighting force when joining in the hobby (also known as 230$).

As for new fresh skin walking into the game a comparison to consoles for most parents would be their analytical process (assuming most parents share a similar thought process).

If they could afford the Xbox 1 (Hal 9000) or the Ps4 (Tron) they would likely look at the mega force as a half off deal on their xmas spending, adding more gifts under the tree for the young guy.

More importantly if their is anything I know about this hobby it is about the social interaction, many of us gamers are great guys to meet and hang out with (DakkaDakka is an amazing community) I would also weigh this factor as a parent when purchasing these gifts.

The argument summarized:
It costs $$ <= consoles
Pros
It provides skill sets like painting, crafting, reading (we know how hard it is to get kids to read) and a direct social environment (which is perhaps the most worth while investment).
Cons
It could be a one hit wonder. And is slightly hazardous (how many of us have scars?)

Again this is from a parenting perspective. Thier is always the fiscal controversy of buying expensive plastic that doesn't contain a computer in it, but it is important to remember my axiom. If they could afford the console they could afford the new bundle.

Last tidbit, how many parents buy little Timmy just a battle force anyways when he wants some plastic dudes? I am sure he gets an extra dreadnought or tank in there, and that already puts them closer to the large bundle anyways.

If gw makes these large bundles worth while to purchase, then I don't see this as a negative at all.

 gossipmeng wrote:
If it weren't for the battleforces I don't think my parents would have bought me warhammer all those years ago. Some parents will buy their kids whatever they want regardless of cost. However, most can't afford to do this even if they wanted to and will need bundles like the battleforces to help them out.

A friend of mine was interested in jumping into 40k a few months ago. He asked me how much it would cost to get a decent sized army and basic supplies. Sadly I informed him it would cost roughly $500 for a decent 1000 pt army, the required books and basic supplies. That is quite a steep barrier to entry.

I think the bigger boxes will end up being a better deal actually. When you get battleforces like Dark Angels and Imperial Guard that give you a squad, they don't help you start an army really. With the Space Marine Strikeforce, you can get a 1250 army with it by maxing upgrades, which isn't ideal but gets you started, for $225, even cheaper if you have a retailer near you that offers discounts. Throw in the small rule book and codex and you're at $332.50. My local shop does 25% discounts on list price, which would put that deal down to $249.38, which is a steal for how much you get. Throw in a couple dollars for hobby knife, glue, and sprue cutters and you're on your way to a grey army! The paint supplies will start adding up, but not cover the 170-250$ price increase to $500 for a starter army.

Granted, all that works only if you're going for a Space Marine army. Tau and Eldar have similar releases out right now. Tau with max upgrades looks to be just over 1000 points, throw in a HQ and two Firewarrior teams and you're set. Higher price than the Space Marines at $283.88 with a 25% discount, this is for the big box, two boxes of fire warriors, and an Ethereal, which probably isn't an optimized list. Eldar requires a HQ Farseer, I believe, to be able to run it at over 1000points without upgrades. That puts it a $290 retail and $217.50 discount. Again, it will be higher than the Space Marine due to higher initial cost, but closer than Tau because you get troop choices.

Hopefully we see more of these deals in the future. I would love to see one for Imperial Guard, because I want to start up a force, but their into price is way too high due to the battleforce giving you so little and the army requiring so much.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Stores are lucky to have the 100$ battalion sold to a rich teen once in a while, esp. around Xmas.
But 200$ is way beyond the reach of teens even around Xmas.
Only positive thing: customers learn from the start, that only rich fanatics are supported, not children, teens or casual gamers.

In the UK teens are regularly bought hundreds of pounds worth of stuff at birthdays and christmas by their parents, and thats not even the rich ones, I should not imagine it being that different elsewhere.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Stores are lucky to have the 100$ battalion sold to a rich teen once in a while, esp. around Xmas.
But 200$ is way beyond the reach of teens even around Xmas.
Only positive thing: customers learn from the start, that only rich fanatics are supported, not children, teens or casual gamers.

Can we drop the hyperbole?

The existence of a $200 warhost does not preclude a parent/casual gamer/teen from buying one or two lower priced boxes (maybe a $40 bleaksword set or a $70 witch elf set?). The battalion boxes were priced lower and it's possible that GW felt they should make the jump from regiment sets to a larger box more considerable for the savings to kick in--but really, we don't know why they did it (other than to continue to make money, but they're a business...).

As a personal aside, I don't understand the vitriolic hate against GW. I don't like everything they do, but I recognize that they owe me absolutely nothing beyond the product they advertise.
To end my own post on a bit of hyperbolic sarcasm, is it this factor?.

I am happy for this to happen, going to be starting Nids when the codex comes out so will help with putting a force together. Fingers crossed they do a monster mash box as I am going full on big sci-fi dino

 gossipmeng wrote:
If it weren't for the battleforces I don't think my parents would have bought me warhammer all those years ago. Some parents will buy their kids whatever they want regardless of cost. However, most can't afford to do this even if they wanted to and will need bundles like the battleforces to help them out.

A friend of mine was interested in jumping into 40k a few months ago. He asked me how much it would cost to get a decent sized army and basic supplies. Sadly I informed him it would cost roughly $500 for a decent 1000 pt army, the required books and basic supplies. That is quite a steep barrier to entry.

My cousin plays MTG and since I know the rules from years ago, he invited me over for a booster draft. I paid $10 for 15 lands of each colour and $10-20 for 3-6 packs depending on the type of draft we do. I forgot how cheap most other game systems are. I know miniatures are much more expensive than cards.... but they still serve the same purpose.

I sure hope GW sticks with battleforces or if they are moving to larger bundles, then at least maintain a decent savings.

Misconception.. All hobbies are super expensive and MTG is no different. Type 2 players spend 600$ every 3 months to stay current :p However, MTG has a much LOWER entry point to be sure but you can play current 40k with models from 15 years ago (within reason) however there are basically only close to 5 cards legal in MTG today that were legal 15 years ago..(IE basic lands)

Pretty sure hobby in ancient greek means "That which people waste money on"

You can play WH40k with the stuff from the starter box. Split with a mate and it's £30 each. It's only if you want to get into competitive play, or starting a bespoke army, that it gets more expensive. This idea that the entry cost for 40k is £40 rulebook, £30 codex, £200 of models etc is absurd.

 Kirasu wrote:

Pretty sure hobby in ancient greek means "That which people waste money on"

Why did I not realise this earlier??

I got into 40k in 2001 by buying an army box. It was $200. I was in 9th grade and I got the money by mowing lawns for a month. I had used my birthday money to buy the starter set and the space marine codex a month before.

If kids want this stuff, they'll find a way to buy it. If I want this stuff, the same principle applies.

I don't know if I can accept the argument about the battalion box sets getting kids into the game.

Back when I started there were none of these and I still managed to start armies with Christmas and Birthday money. And spending a lot of time building an army was part of the fun, or so I thought.

Granted the hobby is expensive, but I think the largest increase in price in playing has been the creep in game size. When I started with 40k, 1000pts was the standard, now it's more like 2000, so you're going to be spending double no matter what old prices or new.

Granted it's pretty bad that the battalions and battle forces may go, but pretty much every one of them has something that you won't ever use in it. Once you factor that into it, does it really save you that much? I really don't know as it depends on your play style.

With these new bundles, they have me somewhat interested, and the Chaos Beastie one has me most interested as it is all stuff I don't have (besides Spawn that is). So with 4000pts of Warriors, I might get this because It's all stuff I don't have. I would not buy an equal savings kit which was loaded with stuff like warriors/marauders/dogs/knights because I already have enough of that.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Maybe they're removing all 30 or so battleforces/ battalions from the shelves to clear space for all the new specialist games they're going to be relaunching in hard plastic?

It's GW, not Mantic. You don't need to specify a type of plastic as they've only used the scale model industry standard for decades.

I'm thinking these strike forces and special boxes are a holiday only thing like the Megaforces were last year.

The Space Marine Strikeforce has been out since their codex released I believe, and it's not labeled as a limited release, which I believe they did on the Megaforces. The Tau and Eldar ones do say "While supplies last" however.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Stores are lucky to have the 100$ battalion sold to a rich teen once in a while, esp. around Xmas.
But 200$ is way beyond the reach of teens even around Xmas.
Only positive thing: customers learn from the start, that only Dedicated and not fairweather gamers will be supported, .

Fixed it.
I remember when I wanted to bet into Radio Controlled cars and planes, They where EXPENSIVE. like alot and it put me off, but I was not dedicated to it. I was not their audience.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Stores are lucky to have the 100$ battalion sold to a rich teen once in a while, esp. around Xmas.

I would call BS on this, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they don't sell well where you are.

But 200$ is way beyond the reach of teens even around Xmas.

I'm impressed by this part. Do you actually understand young people nowadays? The Space Marine Strikeforce costs £140. How much does a console of any kind cost? How many of those are sold? Your assertion is complete BS.

Only positive thing: customers learn from the start, that only rich fanatics are supported, not children, teens or casual gamers.

Can we drop the hyberbolic vitriol? You really are getting on my nerves with the constant contempt you appear to show for this company.

 cormadepanda wrote:

It provides skill sets like painting, crafting, reading (we know how hard it is to get kids to read) and a direct social environment (which is perhaps the most worth while investment).
Cons
It could be a one hit wonder. And is slightly hazardous (how many of us have scars?)

Mental or Physical?
And you are missing one crucial thing here, If timmy asks for an Xbone, and the parents decide "This is cheaper, lets get him this" Timmy will grow up resenting his parents(For a bit), The parents will consider that, trust me.
foe me it is cheaper, (But after playing darksouls and borderlands 2, Video games are starting to capture my eye again) and for you it is. but for a parent buy for their kid......Well I personally think they think "If I spend X they will love me more"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Shrike- wrote:

But 200$ is way beyond the reach of teens even around Xmas.

I'm impressed by this part. Do you actually understand young people nowadays? The Space Marine Strikeforce costs £140. How much does a console of any kind cost? How many of those are sold? Your assertion is complete BS.

Its funny because i regularly get 200$ in just cash for christmas. Well i did before my dad passed away......now im getting an inheritance for christmas.

 Kirasu wrote:

Misconception.. All hobbies are super expensive and MTG is no different. Type 2 players spend 600$ every 3 months to stay current :p However, MTG has a much LOWER entry point to be sure but you can play current 40k with models from 15 years ago (within reason) however there are basically only close to 5 cards legal in MTG today that were legal 15 years ago..(IE basic lands)

Pretty sure hobby in ancient greek means "That which people waste money on"

Lol, that's pretty true. Hobbies are ways to pass time and spend money, nothing more.

The argument about how much (or little) other hobbies cost comes up all the time, and honeslty few people do the numbers properly. It's not about how you can feasibly enter the hobby, I think you shoudl compare costs for "full participation" in a hobby. Yes, you can play 40k with the DV plastics, or Magic with a single precon deck. But that's not gonna work for more than very small stakes games.

To really play 40k, meaning to enjoy most aspects of it and reliably get to play games, you need about 2000 points of models, plus a rule book, a codex (maybe now a supplement), and a decent stock of primer, brushes, paints, and flock. Even still, you can be up and running, playing high level tournament 40k for under a grand, and really only pay a small amount annually after that to update the army. with 2000 points you can play leagues, pick up games, everything but apocolypse, and after a few years of adding to hte army, you'll hit that number anyway.

Magic, of course, has a lower buy in, fewer necessary supplies, but requires buying more cards every four months to keep up. Now, 40k has gotten interesting in that depending on your army, you'll need a major rebuild every four years or so, between edition and codex changes, and god help you if an army gets nerfed badly in a new edition (think Tau in 5th, or Dropwing BA in 6th).

I'm sure if you run the numbers, competitive 40k can be done for cheaper than magic, but likely isn't in practice. And the new sweeping changes each new book brings increased the "maintenance" costs.

Small update:
Tyranids also get no battleforce, but a $170.00 swarm.
Many battalions and battleforces are dropped from stockist module 4 and probably discontinued.
More indications that the original rumour is correct indeed.

GW can only continue to fleece its customers if they continue to bow to "peer pressure", if a young kid has a pal who plays he can play at his house (negating the obligation to use GW models) sharing the rule book, buy an army book (not compulsary amoung freinds) and get a nice set-up from Mantic for a fraction of the GW cost, if money is very tight he can buy some fantasy warriors plastics at £7-£8 for 50.
You dont have to play WHFB or 40k there are other systems.
You dont have to use GW models to play GW games.
You can keep playing the same rules edition forever if thats what you and your buddies agree on.
If you dont like GW prices take your custom elsewhere-i do.

Sure. But kids will continue to play the game that has far more players, namely 40k.

Most kids will get around £120-£200 for Christmas from parents, grandparents and a couple of aunts. That will buy you a tyranid swarm (£85 from Dark Sphere, our local shop), a codex and a Tervigon or two which will keep the average kid painting for a year. Plus, of course, some prices, like the Carnifexes, have come down, as have the cost of Warriors with boneswords, etc etc etc. So the sky ain't falling quite yet.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Sure. But kids will continue to play the game that has far more players, namely 40k.

The above is in no way limited to kids. Unless you're purely a collector and/or painter, a game is only as good as the quality of the product AND your ability to play it. A game can have great rules and awesome minis but if you can't ever find an opponent, it's effectively "worthless" to a gamer.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Makes sense I don't see why they're necessary when the webstore has all those one-click bundles, just a waste of shelf space.

And they were a bundle of models sold at a discount so GW was deliberately losing money for their shareholders every time they sold one.

You can't have that sort of thing going on and still expect to maximize quarterly dividend yield.

You can't honestly believe that selling $6 worth of plastic being sold for $180 is going to put a company out of business. Even with operating expenses and other materials we're looking at a huge profit margin. On a per sale basis. The problem is that gw is trying to be something they aren't - if they'd stick to their roots they'd be in much better shape

The problem with GW is that they are now in a market which is not solely owned by them. They use to be able to set the price and have all these wondrous items of deals and what not without really being hurt because their competition was lacking. In the last decade these things have changed. We've seen new companies emerge and hold a strong standing in the market and how GW responds to this is by increasing prices and quality.

So GW puts out great quality items...but they are screwing over their fanbase by raising prices. They are slowly digging their own grave by making their Hobby become harder for newcomers to get into it, but to keep the ones they have hooked their claws into spending higher prices. It's sad really...I love Warhammer Fantasy and some what of 40k, but they are killing themselves.

I see GW being a failing if not dead company in the next ten years by all the business mistakes they have made.

Makes sense to me. Battalions and Battleforces are a great way for a new player to start the game, but so are Megaforces (or similar sized boxes). However, Megaforces bring in more cash for GW, yet they can still sell them as "the way to get into the hobby".

It is a shame though, if they discontinue the current ones. I was hoping to start a Dark Eldar army using mainly the contents of the Battleforce.