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Do you think the Stormraven is a steal for 200 points?

As a fast skimmer in 5th edition, it was already pretty good. Now it is a flyer and doesnt cost any more points than before. Given that it is 50 points cheaper than a Land Raider, might have 2 AV less on all sides, but only able to get hit by non-skyfire weapons on a 6, and far more mobile, and practically immune to getting assaulted, and immune to the additional dice for melta range weapons dont you think the Stormraven is a steal?

Like why would I want to ferry my squad around in a 265 point Land Raider when I can do the same in a much cheaper Stormraven? Also, it can boast the same armament as a Land Raider Crusader (tl-assaultcannon, 2 hurricane bolters and even a tl-multmelta)

I would price the Stormraven at 220 points to make it balanced.

The Stormraven is actually overcosted. Significantly. AV 14 is far more study than AV 12. In fact, AV 12 HP 3 is quite fragile for a 200 point vehicle. The Stormraven, functionally, should be priced more like a Vendetta. Wherever that thing ends up.

The ONLY thing making the Stormraven viable is MSU raven spam and overloading your opponent's AA. That doesn't mean the individual Stormraven is a good buy. Because its not. It actually kinda sucks.

They are good at 200. They are very good at 230 with a hurricane bolter.

But not Vendetta or Night Scythe good. The firepower at 230 is impressive, but now you are at what? Over 75 pts per HP? Those are really expensive HPs to lose. Only viable by overloading AA I think.

A helldrake is just as nasty, and costs less. Storm Ravens pay for being a transport, but the turn you go to hovering to drop your payload, you die. Hell, lucky 6s still manage to knock it out of the sky frequently, and skyfire has a good shot at doing so.

It simply needs to be on par with other flyers, as Martel said.

I've been using the skies of blood or grav chute thing more often to drop shooters like grav cents. But its still very inefficient imo.

Martel732 wrote:
The Stormraven is actually overcosted. Significantly. AV 14 is far more study than AV 12. In fact, AV 12 HP 3 is quite fragile for a 200 point vehicle. The Stormraven, functionally, should be priced more like a Vendetta. Wherever that thing ends up.

The ONLY thing making the Stormraven viable is MSU raven spam and overloading your opponent's AA. That doesn't mean the individual Stormraven is a good buy. Because its not. It actually kinda sucks.

Except when you compare it to other flyers, e.g. a Crimson Hunter costs 165 points and is 10/10/10 and cannot transport any units.

The Crimson Hunter is not the standard to compare to. Look at the Vendetta and Night Scythe.

The stormraven is costed decently I think. Some of the more recent flyers are significantly overcosted considering how fragile they are or how underwhelming their fire power is.

 Sir Arun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Stormraven is actually overcosted. Significantly. AV 14 is far more study than AV 12. In fact, AV 12 HP 3 is quite fragile for a 200 point vehicle. The Stormraven, functionally, should be priced more like a Vendetta. Wherever that thing ends up.

The ONLY thing making the Stormraven viable is MSU raven spam and overloading your opponent's AA. That doesn't mean the individual Stormraven is a good buy. Because its not. It actually kinda sucks.

Except when you compare it to other flyers, e.g. a Crimson Hunter costs 165 points and is 10/10/10 and cannot transport any units.

A Crimson Hunter will also knock a Raven out of the sky with ease.

When comparing units I would try to stay away from Eldar...especially aspect Eldar. It's like apples and kumquats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
The Crimson Hunter is not the standard to compare to. Look at the Vendetta and Night Scythe.

This

The problem is that both the Vendetta and Night Scythe had their points fixed when their codices were written, and that is for 5th edition when they were Fast Skimmers.

So it is unfair to compare these vehicles to the newest 6th edition Flyers (Storm Talon, Sunshark Bomber, Razorshark Strike Fighter, Crimson Hunter, Hemlock Wraith Fighter etc.)

Martel732 wrote:
The Crimson Hunter is not the standard to compare to. Look at the Vendetta and Night Scythe.

So the only valid comparison are the 5th edition book prices for flyers that were set with skimmer rules in mind? We should ignore every 6th ed book that has come out for flyer pricing?

Martel -- your off a bit here. When the IG codex is re-released in a few months we will see if the Vendetta stays at 130 points.

And then there's the GK one. 5 points more, and keeps getting shot down by the opposing Stormraven because they have missiles they can actually fire at another flier ._.

The Stormraven has too much extraneous wargear and too many extraneous capabilities. Just like marines in general.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Purifier wrote:
And then there's the GK one. 5 points more, and keeps getting shot down by the opposing Stormraven because they have missiles they can actually fire at another flier ._.

This is the sound of me not caring about GKs "problems". You've got psyammo, which is still quite nice in 6th ed.

Logic dictates that the Vendetta should be cheaper than the Crimson Hunter (+2AV on front and sides, sure, but -1BS, no vector dancer, and no 2D6 armor pen against other flyers. I'm thinking 145 should be good...20 points cheaper than the Crimson Hunter)

 Purifier wrote:
And then there's the GK one. 5 points more, and keeps getting shot down by the opposing Stormraven because they have missiles they can actually fire at another flier ._.

Thats because the GK one is meant to be taken with the asscannon, HB, hurricane bolters + psybolt ammunition option and become a 4 tl-S7 rending, 3 tl-S6, 12 tl-S5 monster.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Crimson Hunter is not the standard to compare to. Look at the Vendetta and Night Scythe.

So the only valid comparison are the 5th edition book prices for flyers that were set with skimmer rules in mind? We should ignore every 6th ed book that has come out for flyer pricing?

Martel -- your off a bit here. When the IG codex is re-released in a few months we will see if the Vendetta stays at 130 points.

I base my comparison off what people USE not what GW has put in print that never sees the light of day. The more codices come out, the more I'm convinced the Vendetta will stay at 130. They didn't change the Stormraven, and they had the chance to change the Vendetta in Skies of Blood.

I know you've got a good list with Stormravens, but it is really the flier rules that makes this work, not some great efficiency of the Stormraven. Because its not efficient, its rather poor in this respect. It's also fragile for the points. No demonic 5++, no IWND.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Logic dictates that the Vendetta should be cheaper than the Crimson Hunter (+2AV on front and sides, sure, but -1BS, no vector dancer, and no 2D6 armor pen against other flyers. I'm thinking 145 should be good...20 points cheaper than the Crimson Hunter)

 Purifier wrote:
And then there's the GK one. 5 points more, and keeps getting shot down by the opposing Stormraven because they have missiles they can actually fire at another flier ._.

Thats because the GK one is meant to be taken with the asscannon, HB, hurricane bolters + psybolt ammunition option and become a 4 tl-S7 rending, 3 tl-S6, 6 tl-S5 monster.

Don't forget about precision shots...Can't say enough how often that comes into play for mine.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Logic dictates that the Vendetta should be cheaper than the Crimson Hunter (+2AV on front and sides, sure, but -1BS, no vector dancer, and no 2D6 armor pen against other flyers. I'm thinking 145 should be good...20 points cheaper than the Crimson Hunter)

 Purifier wrote:
And then there's the GK one. 5 points more, and keeps getting shot down by the opposing Stormraven because they have missiles they can actually fire at another flier ._.

Thats because the GK one is meant to be taken with the asscannon, HB, hurricane bolters + psybolt ammunition option and become a 4 tl-S7 rending, 3 tl-S6, 6 tl-S5 monster.

You forgot Vendetta's cargo capacity. I'm sure the SR is being charged out the wazoo for it.

Indeed I did. In that case I think raising it to 155 should do the trick.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Indeed I did. In that case I think raising it to 155 should do the trick.

Maybe, but its still a 155 pt Stormraven for most purposes.

Martel732 wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Indeed I did. In that case I think raising it to 155 should do the trick.

Maybe, but its still a 155 pt Stormraven for most purposes.

that doesnt have melta immunity nor as formidable an arsenal (anti-infantry + anti-tank one shot missiles) nor BS4, nor as deadly a cargo.

Martel732 wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Indeed I did. In that case I think raising it to 155 should do the trick.

Maybe, but its still a 155 pt Stormraven for most purposes.

That can't carry marines...don't forget that transports are hugely based upon what goes in them.

This is the same reason marines don't get chimeras.

 Sir Arun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Indeed I did. In that case I think raising it to 155 should do the trick.

Maybe, but its still a 155 pt Stormraven for most purposes.

that doesnt have melta immunity nor as formidable an arsenal (anti-infantry + anti-tank one shot missiles) nor BS4, nor as deadly a cargo.

SRs aren't immune to melta. I've killed several of them with melta. The ST8 missiles aren't that hot, because they don't pen often enough for the AP 1 or 2 to be valuable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ductvader wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Indeed I did. In that case I think raising it to 155 should do the trick.

Maybe, but its still a 155 pt Stormraven for most purposes.

That can't carry marines...don't forget that transports are hugely based upon what goes in them.

This is the same reason marines don't get chimeras.

That's the thinking of a madman imo. But whatever. Carrying marines isn't what it used to be anyway.

Martel732 wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Indeed I did. In that case I think raising it to 155 should do the trick.

Maybe, but its still a 155 pt Stormraven for most purposes.

that doesnt have melta immunity nor as formidable an arsenal (anti-infantry + anti-tank one shot missiles) nor BS4, nor as deadly a cargo.

SRs aren't immune to melta. I've killed several of them with melta. The ST8 missiles aren't that hot, because they don't pen often enough for the AP 1 or 2 to be valuable.

SRs are immune to the melta rule. Against them, meltaguns are basically AP1 missile launchers. So if your AP1 missile launcher kills Storm Ravens well, imagine what the AP1/2 missiles on said Storm Raven can do!

 Sir Arun wrote:
Logic dictates that the Vendetta should be cheaper than the Crimson Hunter (+2AV on front and sides, sure, but -1BS, no vector dancer, and no 2D6 armor pen against other flyers. I'm thinking 145 should be good...20 points cheaper than the Crimson Hunter)

 Purifier wrote:
And then there's the GK one. 5 points more, and keeps getting shot down by the opposing Stormraven because they have missiles they can actually fire at another flier ._.

Thats because the GK one is meant to be taken with the asscannon, HB, hurricane bolters + psybolt ammunition option and become a 4 tl-S7 rending, 3 tl-S6, 12 tl-S5 monster.

Costing a million points and being shot down round one (yeah, the ropund before it can come in.) But I see your point.

They arent even in the game on round 1 and they get to fire their stuff the turn they arrive unless a weapon with interceptor and skyfire gets incredibly lucky.

One thing about the change from fast skimmers to flyers is the requirement to start in reserves. This makes flying transports much worse for assault troops. So the LRC is still a much better battle-taxi then the SR.

Overall I think the raven is well priced. While it does pale in comparison with the legacy 5th ed flyers, that is a problem with them, not the SR. But from an internal codex balance standpoint, I think it fits in well with the rest of the book.

 Nevelon wrote:
One thing about the change from fast skimmers to flyers is the requirement to start in reserves. This makes flying transports much worse for assault troops. So the LRC is still a much better battle-taxi then the SR.

Overall I think the raven is well priced. While it does pale in comparison with the legacy 5th ed flyers, that is a problem with them, not the SR. But from an internal codex balance standpoint, I think it fits in well with the rest of the book.

Unfortunately, the problem with legacy fliers is that they are still legal and they are the competition for the SR. They might be "the problem" but that doesn't help anyone on the table top. Yes, the SR pricing makes sense internally, but that's of limited value.

I'll say what I always say about the Raven. It is priced right for what you get. You just might not want all the things you get.

For those that say the Vendetta will get a big jump in points I will not that the Valkyrie stayed the same points in Codex:Inquisition as it is in the current IG book.

So if we look at the stock Valkyrie Vs the Stock (codex Sm) Storm Raven(Heavy Bolter/Assaultcannon ):

The SR gets +2 Rear Armor (lets call this +10 points) (110)
+1 BS (another +10 points)(120)
Twin Linked weapons (Heavy Bolter is a wash with Multi Laser but is Twin linkied) (+10 points ) (130)
One additional Main Gun. (+ 30 points for assault cannon sound reasonable) (160)
2 Additional Missiles (with better ap by 1, but Hellstrikes are Ordinance so call it a wash on the AP) (+10 per missile as per HK missile) (180)
Immunity to Melta Special Rule +10 points (190)
Ability to carry a Dread (10 Points) (200)
Power of The Machine Spirit. +15 Points (215)
The Valkyrie gets Extra armor. -15 points (200)

So being fairly reasonable with some points costs it comes out as being approiately costed if not perhaps undercosted.

The problem is you don't want all that stuff, but are required to take it.

If you were not carrying dreads you would love to be able to save points there (or on transport in general sometimes), or on Power of the machine spirit, or on Melta immunity...

But you cannot.

Due to this I would wager its RPP is low compared to many other flyers.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Indeed I did. In that case I think raising it to 155 should do the trick.

Maybe, but its still a 155 pt Stormraven for most purposes.

that doesnt have melta immunity nor as formidable an arsenal (anti-infantry + anti-tank one shot missiles) nor BS4, nor as deadly a cargo.

SRs aren't immune to melta. I've killed several of them with melta. The ST8 missiles aren't that hot, because they don't pen often enough for the AP 1 or 2 to be valuable.

SRs are immune to the melta rule. Against them, meltaguns are basically AP1 missile launchers. So if your AP1 missile launcher kills Storm Ravens well, imagine what the AP1/2 missiles on said Storm Raven can do!

I didn't say well. I said I've done it. Primarily against GKs who didn't think their SR had to respect the melta loadout in my BA lists. Another benefit for my BA MM attack bikes is that they don't have to entertain getting within 12" of the SR. They just shoot from 24". If the SR was ACTUALLY immune to melta, that would be a thing. As it is, ceramite is crap and I would never willingly pay for that upgrade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
I'll say what I always say about the Raven. It is priced right for what you get. You just might not want all the things you get.

For those that say the Vendetta will get a big jump in points I will not that the Valkyrie stayed the same points in Codex:Inquisition as it is in the current IG book.

So if we look at the stock Valkyrie Vs the Stock (codex Sm) Storm Raven(Heavy Bolter/Assaultcannon ):

The SR gets +2 Rear Armor (lets call this +10 points) (110)
+1 BS (another +10 points)(120)
Twin Linked weapons (Heavy Bolter is a wash with Multi Laser but is Twin linkied) (+10 points ) (130)
One additional Main Gun. (+ 30 points for assault cannon sound reasonable) (160)
2 Additional Missiles (with better ap by 1, but Hellstrikes are Ordinance so call it a wash on the AP) (+10 per missile as per HK missile) (180)
Immunity to Melta Special Rule +10 points (190)
Ability to carry a Dread (10 Points) (200)
Power of The Machine Spirit. +15 Points (215)
The Valkyrie gets Extra armor. -15 points (200)

So being fairly reasonable with some points costs it comes out as being approiately costed if not perhaps undercosted.

The problem is you don't want all that stuff, but are required to take it.

If you were not carrying dreads you would love to be able to save points there (or on transport in general sometimes), or on Power of the machine spirit, or on Melta immunity...

But you cannot.

Due to this I would wager its RPP is low compared to many other flyers.

My contention is a lot of that stuff on the list is worth 0 points in reality.