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In terms of points-effectiveness, which are better in your opinion: True Grit Chaos Space Marines with MoK, or Khorne Berserkers? (If you're wondering, they'd be supported by Kharn and mounted in Land Raiders and Rhinos)
Thanks :3

The only things you lose out on by taking CSM rather than berzerkers is WS 5 and fearless.

Honestly, because you can put icons in CSM and chosen units, normal marines tend to do better overall than berzerkers.

Also normal marines and chosen can take other special weapons aside from plasma pistols.

 juraigamer wrote:
The only things you lose out on by taking CSM rather than berzerkers is WS 5 and fearless.

Honestly, because you can put icons in CSM and chosen units, normal marines tend to do better overall than berzerkers.

Also normal marines and chosen can take other special weapons aside from plasma pistols.

True but normal marines don't get chainaxes, cost more with the upgrades, marks and icons, etc. And, it's going to be an all-combat army, special weapons wouldn't really fit in '~'

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
The only things you lose out on by taking CSM rather than berzerkers is WS 5 and fearless.

Honestly, because you can put icons in CSM and chosen units, normal marines tend to do better overall than berzerkers.

Also normal marines and chosen can take other special weapons aside from plasma pistols.

True but normal marines don't get chainaxes, cost more with the upgrades, marks and icons, etc. And, it's going to be an all-combat army, special weapons wouldn't really fit in '~'

True, but the chainaxe upgrade is arguably the most redundant weapons choice you could give to a unit like berserkers as it doesn't make them any more deadlier to the things they need more help with (aka 2-3+ armour save units) while also making them even MORE overkill against units they're already good at chopping through (4+ saves and lower units) meaning you get shot up quicker after combat as you want to win combat during the enemy's turn so he can't shoot you after you consolidate and you can charge again right after. The points you pay for it is nowhere near worth paying for and should have been a free upgrade choice.

Also one big thing is that even with upgrades the normal Khornate CSM will still have more bodies than Berserkers (especially if you give em chainaxes) and special weapons IMO are quite fluffy and fit with the motto of "KILL! MAIM! BURN!" motto of the Berserkers as what else burns better than flamers or using hot melta to allow them to crack open the chewy centre of an APC for them to get stuck into?

 Grimskul wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
The only things you lose out on by taking CSM rather than berzerkers is WS 5 and fearless.

Honestly, because you can put icons in CSM and chosen units, normal marines tend to do better overall than berzerkers.

Also normal marines and chosen can take other special weapons aside from plasma pistols.

True but normal marines don't get chainaxes, cost more with the upgrades, marks and icons, etc. And, it's going to be an all-combat army, special weapons wouldn't really fit in '~'

True, but the chainaxe upgrade is arguably the most redundant weapons choice you could give to a unit like berserkers as it doesn't make them any more deadlier to the things they need more help with (aka 2-3+ armour save units) while also making them even MORE overkill against units they're already good at chopping through (4+ saves and lower units) meaning you get shot up quicker after combat as you want to win combat during the enemy's turn so he can't shoot you after you consolidate and you can charge again right after. The points you pay for it is nowhere near worth paying for and should have been a free upgrade choice.

Also one big thing is that even with upgrades the normal Khornate CSM will still have more bodies than Berserkers (especially if you give em chainaxes) and special weapons IMO are quite fluffy and fit with the motto of "KILL! MAIM! BURN!" motto of the Berserkers as what else burns better than flamers or using hot melta to allow them to crack open the chewy centre of an APC for them to get stuck into?

I can see where you're coming from there, and they do seem like the better option, but you're saying that CSMs are just as good as Zerkers at what they're trying to get (2-3+ armour save units), however, the WS5 in this situation is extremely useful against such units considering they're almost always MEQ. Aside from this, why would I want a meltagun? It sacrifices my extra attack in combat (I'm not gonna be charging them at tanks..) and I already have Helbrutes/Predators that do the job for me.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
The only things you lose out on by taking CSM rather than berzerkers is WS 5 and fearless.

Honestly, because you can put icons in CSM and chosen units, normal marines tend to do better overall than berzerkers.

Also normal marines and chosen can take other special weapons aside from plasma pistols.

True but normal marines don't get chainaxes, cost more with the upgrades, marks and icons, etc. And, it's going to be an all-combat army, special weapons wouldn't really fit in '~'

True, but the chainaxe upgrade is arguably the most redundant weapons choice you could give to a unit like berserkers as it doesn't make them any more deadlier to the things they need more help with (aka 2-3+ armour save units) while also making them even MORE overkill against units they're already good at chopping through (4+ saves and lower units) meaning you get shot up quicker after combat as you want to win combat during the enemy's turn so he can't shoot you after you consolidate and you can charge again right after. The points you pay for it is nowhere near worth paying for and should have been a free upgrade choice.

Also one big thing is that even with upgrades the normal Khornate CSM will still have more bodies than Berserkers (especially if you give em chainaxes) and special weapons IMO are quite fluffy and fit with the motto of "KILL! MAIM! BURN!" motto of the Berserkers as what else burns better than flamers or using hot melta to allow them to crack open the chewy centre of an APC for them to get stuck into?

I can see where you're coming from there, and they do seem like the better option, but you're saying that CSMs are just as good as Zerkers at what they're trying to get (2-3+ armour save units), however, the WS5 in this situation is extremely useful against such units considering they're almost always MEQ. Aside from this, why would I want a meltagun? It sacrifices my extra attack in combat (I'm not gonna be charging them at tanks..) and I already have Helbrutes/Predators that do the job for me.

You're swapping the bolter for the Meltagun, you get to keep your BP/CCW.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
The only things you lose out on by taking CSM rather than berzerkers is WS 5 and fearless.

Honestly, because you can put icons in CSM and chosen units, normal marines tend to do better overall than berzerkers.

Also normal marines and chosen can take other special weapons aside from plasma pistols.

True but normal marines don't get chainaxes, cost more with the upgrades, marks and icons, etc. And, it's going to be an all-combat army, special weapons wouldn't really fit in '~'

True, but the chainaxe upgrade is arguably the most redundant weapons choice you could give to a unit like berserkers as it doesn't make them any more deadlier to the things they need more help with (aka 2-3+ armour save units) while also making them even MORE overkill against units they're already good at chopping through (4+ saves and lower units) meaning you get shot up quicker after combat as you want to win combat during the enemy's turn so he can't shoot you after you consolidate and you can charge again right after. The points you pay for it is nowhere near worth paying for and should have been a free upgrade choice.

Also one big thing is that even with upgrades the normal Khornate CSM will still have more bodies than Berserkers (especially if you give em chainaxes) and special weapons IMO are quite fluffy and fit with the motto of "KILL! MAIM! BURN!" motto of the Berserkers as what else burns better than flamers or using hot melta to allow them to crack open the chewy centre of an APC for them to get stuck into?

I can see where you're coming from there, and they do seem like the better option, but you're saying that CSMs are just as good as Zerkers at what they're trying to get (2-3+ armour save units), however, the WS5 in this situation is extremely useful against such units considering they're almost always MEQ. Aside from this, why would I want a meltagun? It sacrifices my extra attack in combat (I'm not gonna be charging them at tanks..) and I already have Helbrutes/Predators that do the job for me.

You're swapping the bolter for the Meltagun, you get to keep your BP/CCW.

Huh, that is true, but as I said I'm not exactly charging my Zerkers at tanks..

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
The only things you lose out on by taking CSM rather than berzerkers is WS 5 and fearless.

Honestly, because you can put icons in CSM and chosen units, normal marines tend to do better overall than berzerkers.

Also normal marines and chosen can take other special weapons aside from plasma pistols.

True but normal marines don't get chainaxes, cost more with the upgrades, marks and icons, etc. And, it's going to be an all-combat army, special weapons wouldn't really fit in '~'

True, but the chainaxe upgrade is arguably the most redundant weapons choice you could give to a unit like berserkers as it doesn't make them any more deadlier to the things they need more help with (aka 2-3+ armour save units) while also making them even MORE overkill against units they're already good at chopping through (4+ saves and lower units) meaning you get shot up quicker after combat as you want to win combat during the enemy's turn so he can't shoot you after you consolidate and you can charge again right after. The points you pay for it is nowhere near worth paying for and should have been a free upgrade choice.

Also one big thing is that even with upgrades the normal Khornate CSM will still have more bodies than Berserkers (especially if you give em chainaxes) and special weapons IMO are quite fluffy and fit with the motto of "KILL! MAIM! BURN!" motto of the Berserkers as what else burns better than flamers or using hot melta to allow them to crack open the chewy centre of an APC for them to get stuck into?

I can see where you're coming from there, and they do seem like the better option, but you're saying that CSMs are just as good as Zerkers at what they're trying to get (2-3+ armour save units), however, the WS5 in this situation is extremely useful against such units considering they're almost always MEQ. Aside from this, why would I want a meltagun? It sacrifices my extra attack in combat (I'm not gonna be charging them at tanks..) and I already have Helbrutes/Predators that do the job for me.

You're swapping the bolter for the Meltagun, you get to keep your BP/CCW.

Huh, that is true, but as I said I'm not exactly charging my Zerkers at tanks..

So you don't want that versatility then? What if the infantry you want to take out IS in a tank? Like a Wave Serpent? Don't you want a chance of not only blowing up the tank and taking it's innards apart but also being able to assault them afterwards? Look I'm not saying don't take Khorne Berserkers, but having some variety with normal Khornate CSM squads is good simply because it allows you to not be as dependent on your Helbrutes/Predators and allows a fallback point in the case where your dedicated vehicle-busters are neutralized or out of position. Also your predators and Helbrutes, unless they're always toting lascannons, will not be guaranteed to penetrate/handle vehicles especially if there is a surplus of them like a Chimera spam or Battlewagon Rush. Meltaguns give you that window of opportunity to alleviate some of that pressure (esp. since if they're in that sweet spot of 6" they are much more likely to pop it than a lascannon) and also allow them to engage the proliferation of monstrous creatures in the game on more equal footing by taking a few wounds off the top before swinging home into melee.

I admit the WS5 is a plus but they don't have enough attacks IMO sadly to make up for the versatility Khornate CSM squads bring.

 Grimskul wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
The only things you lose out on by taking CSM rather than berzerkers is WS 5 and fearless.

Honestly, because you can put icons in CSM and chosen units, normal marines tend to do better overall than berzerkers.

Also normal marines and chosen can take other special weapons aside from plasma pistols.

True but normal marines don't get chainaxes, cost more with the upgrades, marks and icons, etc. And, it's going to be an all-combat army, special weapons wouldn't really fit in '~'

True, but the chainaxe upgrade is arguably the most redundant weapons choice you could give to a unit like berserkers as it doesn't make them any more deadlier to the things they need more help with (aka 2-3+ armour save units) while also making them even MORE overkill against units they're already good at chopping through (4+ saves and lower units) meaning you get shot up quicker after combat as you want to win combat during the enemy's turn so he can't shoot you after you consolidate and you can charge again right after. The points you pay for it is nowhere near worth paying for and should have been a free upgrade choice.

Also one big thing is that even with upgrades the normal Khornate CSM will still have more bodies than Berserkers (especially if you give em chainaxes) and special weapons IMO are quite fluffy and fit with the motto of "KILL! MAIM! BURN!" motto of the Berserkers as what else burns better than flamers or using hot melta to allow them to crack open the chewy centre of an APC for them to get stuck into?

I can see where you're coming from there, and they do seem like the better option, but you're saying that CSMs are just as good as Zerkers at what they're trying to get (2-3+ armour save units), however, the WS5 in this situation is extremely useful against such units considering they're almost always MEQ. Aside from this, why would I want a meltagun? It sacrifices my extra attack in combat (I'm not gonna be charging them at tanks..) and I already have Helbrutes/Predators that do the job for me.

You're swapping the bolter for the Meltagun, you get to keep your BP/CCW.

Huh, that is true, but as I said I'm not exactly charging my Zerkers at tanks..

So you don't want that versatility then? What if the infantry you want to take out IS in a tank? Like a Wave Serpent? Don't you want a chance of not only blowing up the tank and taking it's innards apart but also being able to assault them afterwards? Look I'm not saying don't take Khorne Berserkers, but having some variety with normal Khornate CSM squads is good simply because it allows you to not be as dependent on your Helbrutes/Predators and allows a fallback point in the case where your dedicated vehicle-busters are neutralized or out of position. Also your predators and Helbrutes, unless they're always toting lascannons, will not be guaranteed to penetrate/handle vehicles especially if there is a surplus of them like a Chimera spam or Battlewagon Rush. Meltaguns give you that window of opportunity to alleviate some of that pressure (esp. since if they're in that sweet spot of 6" they are much more likely to pop it than a lascannon) and also allow them to engage the proliferation of monstrous creatures in the game on more equal footing by taking a few wounds off the top before swinging home into melee.

I admit the WS5 is a plus but they don't have enough attacks IMO sadly to make up for the versatility Khornate CSM squads bring.

You have to assault the thing you shot at, so if i shot the tank with a meltagun, I would then be shot by everything that came out of it and probably die. Aside from this, my Helbrutes will be given 2 Power Fists/a Multimelta and a PF, and my Predators are toting lascannons. There's also my Land Raider with TL Lascannons which will transport my Kharn unit :3

I don't get how getting shot at by the unit inside the tank/vehicle matters given that:

a) This would happen anyways if you opened it with the CSM or the Helbrutes/Predators so I don't see how that would change your opinion in this matter.

b) If you're close enough to fire a meltagun you are in range to charge and with an Icon of Khorne allowing you to re-roll charge ranges you have a pretty damn reliable chance of getting stuck in with the unit inside. You are allowed to charge the units inside the vehicle/tank you destroyed it's on pg 80 of the main rulebook pertaining to transports and assaults. "However, if a transport is destroyed by a shooting attack, any unit shot it that turn can, if allowed, charge the now disembarked passengers."

c) Given that it seems that your only long range anti-tank comprises of a couple of predators at most with a Land Raider that can't shoot it's lascannons at full capacity since you'll be gunning it to get Kharn and his crew to where he needs to be shows that you need the extra oomph of meltaguns to provide the additional anti-tank punch your list seems to be a bit deficient on. Furthermore, a footslogging CC helbrute or one with a multimelta is not something I would consider reliable sources of tank openers given their slow speed and both need to be within charge range in order to fully utilize their weapons so why not just add meltaguns in the mix as well given that they serve the same purposes but are cheaper and have ablative wounds? 3HP AV12 platforms are really easy to down this edition, I'll tell you my deff dreadz have died to firepower very quickly even with KFF protection and your Helbrutes are no different.

 Grimskul wrote:
I don't get how getting shot at by the unit inside the tank/vehicle matters given that:

a) This would happen anyways if you opened it with the CSM or the Helbrutes/Predators so I don't see how that would change your opinion in this matter.

b) If you're close enough to fire a meltagun you are in range to charge and with an Icon of Khorne allowing you to re-roll charge ranges you have a pretty damn reliable chance of getting stuck in with the unit inside. You are allowed to charge the units inside the vehicle/tank you destroyed it's on pg 80 of the main rulebook pertaining to transports and assaults. "However, if a transport is destroyed by a shooting attack, any unit shot it that turn can, if allowed, charge the now disembarked passengers."

c) Given that it seems that your only long range anti-tank comprises of a couple of predators at most with a Land Raider that can't shoot it's lascannons at full capacity since you'll be gunning it to get Kharn and his crew to where he needs to be shows that you need the extra oomph of meltaguns to provide the additional anti-tank punch your list seems to be a bit deficient on. Furthermore, a footslogging CC helbrute or one with a multimelta is not something I would consider reliable sources of tank openers given their slow speed and both need to be within charge range in order to fully utilize their weapons so why not just add meltaguns in the mix as well given that they serve the same purposes but are cheaper and have ablative wounds? 3HP AV12 platforms are really easy to down this edition, I'll tell you my deff dreadz have died to firepower very quickly even with KFF protection and your Helbrutes are no different.

Then what's the point in taking Khorne Berserkers?

From a purely tactical perspective, not much. The CSM book in this way fails to provide a properly internally balanced codex since so many choices are no brainers like Heldrakes or very hard to use without building your list around It and ultimately getting very little back in return.

Khorne Berserkers are just one cult unit that has been hurt in this way, alongside Thousand Sons, and it seems like their role seems to be based upon providing a relatively cheap close-combat oriented unit. They would be a lot more viable if they didn't require taking Land Raiders as assault transports or if units with the Mark of Khorne allowed them to assault as if they were disembarking from an assault vehicle.

They're never going to be super viable but I think taking a single unit with Kharn like you originally planned is going to be your best choice. Kharn gives them the free hatred to make those first hits on the charge really count (and where WS5 will make the most difference) and with a berserker champion to take any challenges Kharn provides the at-initiative high strength AP2 attacks to cut through what sheer weight of attacks won't. Just don't take any chainaxes or plasma pistols and you should be good. Fluff out the rest of your army with any other Khornate stuff as far as I can tell.

Again, this is just advice from a purely tactical viewpoint. You can still take Berserkers and do okay, just don't expect to steamroll people very easily given the limitations a berserker-heavy army has against the current edition's type of armies.

Zerker's have another attack base.
And for this reason I actually like them vs CC oriented CSM.

The actual best loadout is just basic CSM with bolters a mark to reroll charge distance just to help out Kharn.

He delivers enough CC wounds consistently that all you need for him to be good are wounds to shield him.

There really isn't a target in the game sans LR's I think that he can't take on.

I promise you there isn't a effective, consistent way to get Khorne Berserkers OR CC oriented marines into good combats without paying out the nose in casualties.

Deliver them in a LR, try to linebreak, try to contest their objective or even hold it and position around your giant LR. It's not worth it's points either in firepower so you need to be using it as an assault platform AND LOS tool.

Kharn is awesome, love him, but don't get crazy with his followers.

 Aijec wrote:
Zerker's have another attack base.

No they don't, they have Rage.

 Aijec wrote:
Zerker's have another attack base.
And for this reason I actually like them vs CC oriented CSM.

The actual best loadout is just basic CSM with bolters a mark to reroll charge distance just to help out Kharn.

He delivers enough CC wounds consistently that all you need for him to be good are wounds to shield him.

There really isn't a target in the game sans LR's I think that he can't take on.

I promise you there isn't a effective, consistent way to get Khorne Berserkers OR CC oriented marines into good combats without paying out the nose in casualties.

Deliver them in a LR, try to linebreak, try to contest their objective or even hold it and position around your giant LR. It's not worth it's points either in firepower so you need to be using it as an assault platform AND LOS tool.

Kharn is awesome, love him, but don't get crazy with his followers.

I was thinking more along the lines of running cultists with autoguns and MoN up the field and dropping them on objectives while Kharn and his Zerkers eat up expensive units :3