Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

They have to be doing something right since I see stores opening here in the United States in the White Dwarf mag. Not sure what it is but some investor has put his money on the line looking for a return. Never been to a GW store and don't have one near me. So I really don't know what they have to offer besides models at retail cost

That is not private investor, that is GW, these things are not franchises, these are company stores. GW stores do not exist to run on a profit. They are always is high traffic areas and are basically very expensive billboards to capture people (kids) walking through the mall. This is GWs advertising and marketing model....and its pretty crappy. GW stores and their overhead is one of the reasons minis are so expensive.

I'm suprised that GW can compete at all considering you always get a discount if you go elsewhere, I suppose younger people keep them alive with impulse buys, but for me, Ill happily wait a week if I can get 25% off.

I have plenty of other hobbies to take care of while I wait!

The answer is no, it is not possible for GW stores to compete. It's like asking how to make water not be wet, or how to make 1+1=3. Imagine you have two stores:

Store A:
* Sells everything at 10% off full retail price.
* Sells a wide range of non-GW products, including some combination of other miniatures games, RPGs, card games, board games, RC cars/planes, comics, etc.
* Is open during regular business hours, seven days a week.
* Has plenty of gaming space for all of the various games they sell, including semi-organized game nights and/or ongoing leagues.
* Has no rules on using third-party components in your games, since they sell those as well.
* Has useful staff with the freedom to give you useful help instead of just reciting company policy.

Store B:
* Sells everything at full retail price.
* Only sells GW products.
* Is only open for limited hours, only five days a week, and is randomly closed in the middle of the day so the one employee can have a lunch break.
* Has limited gaming space, and only allows GW games.
* Does not allow anything other than official GW products in the store.
* Has useless staff that have to deal with strict company rules or risk being fired.


So why would you ever go to store B, unless you don't know that store A exists?

Not all independents sell at less than retail. All three of the Independents near me sell at full retail. It is also easier to find 40k players in a GW than at an independent that serves multiple games and communities. The players often get diluted and it can be hard to organize.

Chiming in, I made my first gw purchases in an independant retailer because they offered a rewards program of 20$ for every 100$ spent. The 3 independent retailers around me now sell at 5% off (15% if you're in a league for that game), 15% off unless you buy over 100$ then its 20% off, and the third sells at 20% off. We only just got a gw store up here. I've never stepped into it but I seriously doubt it will compete, especiall if it is anything like their normal bolt-hole stores that have 3 tables but one is for display only. All 3 of the independent retailers have a large gaming area (between 7-12 tables with lots of terrain each). I only stepped into a standard gw store for the first time last year, which is about 3 years into my 40k tenure. The manager there wasn't too bad about pushing for a sale and was very friendly but me and my friend weren't impressed with the store due to its lack of table space.

More anecdotes regarding start-up in 40k. 2 of my friends started their 40k collections using ebay and both in their 3-4 years of playing have only ever bought 1-2 items new and those at 20% from their LGS.

The only gw store worth going to is World of Battle, their north american headquarters located in Memphis, TN. That was a fantastic store. I just visited a friend down there and we played a game and hung out at the store. The playing area was amazing with really well done tables and plenty of more standard tables as well. They had over 16 tables to play on. One set of 2 was a giant cityscape. The staff were also very nice, loved talking about the hobby and while leaned towards product sales, they didn't do it in such a way to drive me off. They also ran events all the time, from tourneys to leagues to painting and modelling workshops.

 The Shadow wrote:


Did you start buying of independent retailers/eBay straight away? Almost definetly, the answer is no. You went to a GW.

I was highly amused by this statement. When I started buying GW, the internet was unknown and there wasn't (as far as I am aware) a GW store on this continent. Independent retailers were the only option. Oh and the prices were comparable to any other product in the marketplace so there wasn't any concern for discounts. Obviously I am not the typical gamer though.

The obvious answer is that GW store are not there to compete in price. They are there to form a brand and promote it and create ubiquity.

If they compete it is on introductory and hobby elements that are less likely to be run by other outlets. I hear the GW introduction to games/painting are good enough.

And let's not kid ourselves GW stores are not there just to sink the profits into, each will be run to profit. It's no accident that GWs turnover dwarfs that of its nearest wargaming rival. The store attract lots of newcomers, and their initial big spend is at GW. Once they are past that they either drop out, are brand/store loyal vets or vets that have "wised up" and buy discounted. Either way its working to their store model; you join, once hooked and hosed GW gamers are pushed toward clubs with other regulars players. There is not much room in store for a vet community so it makes sense.

GW are fine with people making long term purchases at discount. It's like brand and store brand cereal, GW covers both "premium" and discount needs except with the same product.

With this can be done more in the Uk because of the density of stores but make no mistake GW are looking to roll this out to the US.

We don't really have any independent stores near us. I really live visiting my local GW store though just for a chat with the staff if nothing else.
Also use it to pick up Black LIbrary releases.

But not to bashbut you do get a feeling of fear from the staff if you raise anything outside GW products which is slightly childish. They should have enough confidence to talk about other manufacturers without going all weird.
I definitely think if they sold some FW products sales would go wild. Even a limited number of products, it would be a good intro to FW for people who havnt bought FW before.

 The Shadow wrote:
Think back to when you started the hobby. Did you start buying of independent retailers/eBay straight away? Almost definetly, the answer is no. You went to a GW.

When I got started in the hobby GW was not yet a twinkle in Ian Livingston's eye.

I would not go in a GW store unless I had a gift certificate, then I would buy terrain and nothing else.

So, no, very much a false premise - and one that assumes that GW is the 'hobby'.

It isn't - I got started in fantasy miniatures gaming with Chainmail by a fellow named Gary Gygax (and Chainmail was already several years old when I started playing it) using Minifig miniatures.

Not a Citadel miniature on the table.

And Chainmail was not the first wargame that I played.

An awful lot of people didn't get their introduction to fantasy gaming at a GW store - and some of us have never seen a GW store.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
An awful lot of people didn't get their introduction to fantasy gaming at a GW store - and some of us have never seen a GW store.

I think it's entirely a UK thing. The GW brand is so pervasive over here, that when I talk to non-gaming people about hobbies and mention wargaming they generally look blank, then if I describe what it is they say "Oh, you mean Warhammer". If they're a relatively young male they often follow it up with "I used to have some of those". The stores exist in almost all major towns, usually at the expense of any FLGS. I'm sure though, there are UK 'Auld Grumps' out there that have been gaming longer than GW and spend all their time in dusty church halls with the historicals, but for anyone here under 30 I'd be amazed if they were a gamer and hadn't gone the GW route, even briefly.

I hope that GW gets bought out and the various pieces sold off .- it would be amaxzing if, almost overnight, there was a nationwide chain of gaming stores stocking all sorts of products from Mantic, Warlord, CB, PP, etc. Obviously never going to happen, but it would be a huge shot in the arm for the hobby (the wider hobby, not the GW one) if it did.

 Riquende wrote:
.....I hope that GW gets bought out and the various pieces sold off .- it would be amaxzing if, almost overnight, there was a nationwide chain of gaming stores stocking all sorts of products from Mantic, Warlord, CB, PP, etc. Obviously never going to happen, but it would be a huge shot in the arm for the hobby (the wider hobby, not the GW one) if it did.

I'd actually suggest it would go the other way. GW form a skeleton to general UK gaming that others are happy to work around. Its a brand that people recognise and draws in new gamers very well. Once they have the gaming bug that's where Battlefront, Mantic et al step in and say "hey look what else there is!". Many of these other companies seem to be quite happy to have GW in place, they perform a service that none of the smaller companies can match in this regard at a completely different scale.

Without GW at this point it would take many years for the retail side of wargaming to come back up if at all in the UK. At a time when high streets are emptying of stores generally because of incredibly high rates and not being able to compete with internet retailers, who would be able to run a FLGS profitably giving the discounts that people seem to desire? The only sort of places that open up these day are boutique shops and judging by the usual whining no one wants to pay boutique prices for games (I don't, it bad enough the Mrs wastes so much of my money in them on fripperies and crap!).

I've grown up with GW and can remember when they had only 1 or 2 shops. I also remember that there was not a huge choice of games shops even then in my part of the world; there was Warlord Games in Southend and for a short time a small stall in Basildon, other than that it was a train ride to Hammersmith (London) to go to GW. So that's 2 places in the whole of southern Essex (my county/state) or an hour + train ride to GW. I'm happy that GW exists all over the place and that because of that ubiquity there is now 4Tk, Wayland, Marques Models and other operating in this county because of it selling those other lines.

To wish that away seems nonsensical to me. GW doesn't damage other games manufacturers rather enables them; this is a good thing.

If they had stock of the online only stuff I'd use them. It doesn't need to be on the shelf, in a storage tray in the back is sufficient.

The current stock range is poor for veteran gamers; almost everything I want to buy is direct only now, so there's no point visiting a store just to order stuff online.

Herzlos wrote:
If they had stock of the online only stuff I'd use them. It doesn't need to be on the shelf, in a storage tray in the back is sufficient.

The current stock range is poor for veteran gamers; almost everything I want to buy is direct only now, so there's no point visiting a store just to order stuff online.

/I always try to order direct only stuff instore, yes its the same as doing it at home but instore, but it helps the manager reach those 'potentialy' ridiculous sales targets

My local managers a good guy and always able to help, and ordering at home, even if it gets delivered to his store doesnt help him at all. I wouldnt want him replaced by someone awful

devil you know and all that

from a canadian perspective, they have no chance of competing

what the store would sell for 41.50 with sales tax costs 25 flat from a US discounter.

he gives free shipping and is fast. it's here in 1 week or less.

that's 40% saving and i like stuff being brought straight to my door rather than having to go out and get it.

GW store is far away, gas isnt cheap, so that's another advantage of buying online.

Seems like a strange question given that gw stores unquestionably last longer than gaming stores, i've known two flgs, both of them shut down within months. By contrast there have been about 3 games workshops within half an hour of me for at least 15-20 years of my life.

I think their central location is probably the biggeest pull to adult hobbyists. If you're in town anyway, you can pop in to get your plastic crack fix, then go for a coffee or something, without having to wait or deal with packages in the post. It helps that the store is clean, warm, well lit and professionally staffed - i certainly couldn't say that about all gaming stores.

xruslanx wrote:
Seems like a strange question given that gw stores unquestionably last longer than gaming stores, i've known two flgs, both of them shut down within months. By contrast there have been about 3 games workshops within half an hour of me for at least 15-20 years of my life.

I think their central location is probably the biggeest pull to adult hobbyists. If you're in town anyway, you can pop in to get your plastic crack fix, then go for a coffee or something, without having to wait or deal with packages in the post. It helps that the store is clean, warm, well lit and professionally staffed - i certainly couldn't say that about all gaming stores.

There is a VERY big difference in GW store saturation between the UK and the rest of the world. Over there they have a store in every town and have driven the FLGS out of business long ago, leaving no brick and mortar stores to compete with (that actually may be a big part of the reason they can't compete in other parts of the world now that I think about it, no practice).

Down here in Oz, and from everything I have heard the same seems to hold true in every other part of the western world bar the UK, GW stores are few and far between. They usually pop up somewhere then a year later find themselves relocated with a new manager. Whether this is directly because of competition with other stores I can't say but I can tell you that there was a GW store in Sydney that set up shop just up the road from my mate's local FLGS and six months later the FLGS hadn't lost any business but the GW store was in a sorry state.

As for the other points, I can only speak for the store that popped up half an hour down the road from me and the rest is going off what I've heard from others but I have yet to encounter a GW in a central location, they always seem to be out of the way but not too out of the way. Not in high traffic areas but around the corner from them in locations where they can set their own hours since they can't do that in the big shopping centers/malls.
Clean, warm and well lit I'll give you but professionally staffed, I think not. I find it hard to have a conversation with my local Redshirt as he seems VERY reluctant to give his actual opinion on anything, every new models is great, objectivly bad models from 10+ years ago (like that god awful Nagash) are 'classics', finecrap is the greatest medium ever, dropper bottles dry out faster than the pots that he puts on his shelf after they were baked in the truck on the way to his store, his painting advice is base>layer>dry>wash and doesn't extend beyond that at all and, most importantly, he doesn't give demo games.
Instead he lines up three models or so and tells them 'you need a three to hit, then a 3 to wound the first guy, a 4 for the other two. You get two shots at the first guy, but the second and third are out of rapid fire range so you only get 1. First guy gets no saves, second gets a 4+, third a 2+. You have 10 rounds in your magazine, go.'
Then next time they drop in he'll do something similar for assault.

orkybenji wrote:
Not all independents sell at less than retail. All three of the Independents near me sell at full retail. It is also easier to find 40k players in a GW than at an independent that serves multiple games and communities. The players often get diluted and it can be hard to organize.

From my experience, I have to say that finding a game at an indie has to be much easier than at a GW just because of a matter of space. Most of the new one-man stores that GW is opening have space for one or two gaming tables and that's it. Compared to the three indie stores I know in metro Atlanta that all have 6-12 tables at any given time. The 40K players just don't go to the GW store for a game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:


It isn't - I got started in fantasy miniatures gaming with Chainmail by a fellow named Gary Gygax (and Chainmail was already several years old when I started playing it) using Minifig miniatures.

The Auld Grump

I still have my copy of Chainmail

I think most people on this board and virtually everyone not from the UK needs to understand that they simply don't matter to GW. GW's entire business model revolves around roping 12-year-olds into their stores, selling their parents on the idea of a social club that they can drop their "little darlings" off at whilst they go shopping and milking them for all they're worth for the next three years.
They don't worry about retention, there is no shortage of 12-year-olds; a new crop every year.
They don't care about overseas markets, they're a bonus to the bottom line, the company could continue almost indefinitely on the UK alone.
If you're buying online, I have a message for you: You aren't GW's target market! You're too old and your purchases are in such minority, GW barely notices them.

We were told repeatedly, both in-store by area managers and at head office on training that stores were marketing, with a better return than any other form of advertising that GW could use.

(The other "horror" tale I remember was, they expected to lose "hobbyists" at age 15 when they "discover" girls, but about 5% return at ages 18-20, but then require virtually no selling-to as they're lifers who will buy no matter what. I do not envy anyone working in GW stores, I did my time and I'm glad I left.)

kb305 wrote:
from a canadian perspective, they have no chance of competing

what the store would sell for 41.50 with sales tax costs 25 flat from a US discounter.

he gives free shipping and is fast. it's here in 1 week or less.

that's 40% saving and i like stuff being brought straight to my door rather than having to go out and get it.

GW store is far away, gas isnt cheap, so that's another advantage of buying online.

The previous poster's observation is also part of the reason why FLGS are getting kicked in the teeth up here in Canada, as the GW stockist discount is based on local MSRP.

We were told repeatedly, both in-store by area managers and at head office on training that stores were marketing, with a better return than any other form of advertising that GW could use.

Yeah, my line managers would tell me stuff that was blatant bull too, it's part of their job.

So all those retail chains with networks of stores that also spend a fortune on advertising for themselves and what they sell are just wasting time and money?

Appeal to other retail motivators besides price.

Those are....
Convenience
Save Time
Build Security
Build Status

There isn't much any GW store can do to be competitive. They are, at least here in the US, highly controlled by corporate management.

The GW near me was great for awhile, because the manager basically broke all the rules that corporate established. I went out of my way to shop there because I liked the manager (we're still friends, btw). He would buy us pizza, keep the store open late so we could finish our games, I typically got my codex 3 or 4 days before the release date (really miss this perk), etc etc etc. To a certain degree, corporate would look the other way, because his numbers were 400% higher than the previous guys month to month. Eventually he quit for a better job, and now they have a corporate stooge running the store. Guess where I buy all my stuff now? Online.

The answer is simple. For a GW store to do more/better business, corporate needs to change.

The only way for GW stores to compete with the FLGS is for them to become the FLGS. Sell all the games (GW, PP, Mantic, M:TG, FFG, etc.), have lots of gaming space, etc. But, even this model would not truly succeed without some sort of discount on GW product (be it random sales, reward programs, lower prices for all, whatever) as people would still find ways to buy those cheaper elsewhere So, without a major philosophical shift from GW HQ, this won't happen.

If GW stores sold Forgeworld items I'd probably shop there more but without loyalty programs and discounts there is no reason for me to go to a GW store and buy the exact same thing that I can get down the street for at least 15% off that price.

ahzek wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
If they had stock of the online only stuff I'd use them. It doesn't need to be on the shelf, in a storage tray in the back is sufficient.

The current stock range is poor for veteran gamers; almost everything I want to buy is direct only now, so there's no point visiting a store just to order stuff online.

/I always try to order direct only stuff instore, yes its the same as doing it at home but instore, but it helps the manager reach those 'potentialy' ridiculous sales targets

My local managers a good guy and always able to help, and ordering at home, even if it gets delivered to his store doesnt help him at all. I wouldnt want him replaced by someone awful

devil you know and all that

Given the opportunity I'd do that; but it's a reasonable trip out of the way to go to the store and order, and then going back to the store to collect. So I'd either rather wait until I'm out that way or just order online to collect and only waste an hour + round trip in the middle of my working day once.

1) Establish real world pricing. GW sells their products with a markup similar to luxury items like designer handbags. This markup allows for serious undercutting by local clubs satisfied with a lower profit margin. It also invites counterfeiting

2) Focus on experience. Build larger stores (more "Battle bunkers"). Offer tournaments, leagues, special events. These things give players an incentive and an opportunity to buy/use models without requiring significant (or any) expenditure.

To compete: Be a one stop shop, have everything and a calm, relaxed, knowledgeable sales person. Everything to convey the feeling of supporting the experience or "culture" of the hobby. At least make it comfortable to game there.

GW store:

If you spend longer than 10 minutes there browsing the single manager/sales guy in the store gets frustrated the sale was not closed in the first 5 and acts like he has no idea why you are there and you are creeping him out. "Felt" this in a couple of the stores.

Only "basic" stuff is stocked but they are more than happy to direct you to on-line sales and they will let you know when the product is in.

Ensure that every item is "high quality" yes they pride themselves on the models but the paint containers and supplementary craft / gaming product is poor, let us not talk about their glues.


Local hobby store:

Variety of gaming product so we can "cherry pick" the best paints, glue, materials in general for conversion. They are the true one stop shop with everything needed for the success of cool looking games.

We get to play there! They sell snacks, drinks and have a coffee maker! Places to sit and multiple nice tables ready to go.

They have a web site to arrange meeting people for a game.

A local store carries the "most requested" Forge World stuff as well in stock!

Member, loyalty cards, email alerts of sales being held all provided.

GW - to succeed need to be more inclusive, drop the occasional reward or a tiny sign of appreciation or valuing their customers. We have a voice in these game clubs, none with the GW "shopping experience".

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The only way for GW stores to compete with the FLGS is for them to become the FLGS. Sell all the games (GW, PP, Mantic, M:TG, FFG, etc.), have lots of gaming space, etc. But, even this model would not truly succeed without some sort of discount on GW product (be it random sales, reward programs, lower prices for all, whatever) as people would still find ways to buy those cheaper elsewhere So, without a major philosophical shift from GW HQ, this won't happen.

^^^^ This ^^^^

And not having staff that act like Mormons on speed would probably help a lot as well - the longest I've spent in a GW store, without being approached by an 'eager beaver' member of staff who wants to sell me a complete game, is four and a half minutes

 The Shadow wrote:
Think back to when you started the hobby. Did you start buying of independent retailers/eBay straight away? Almost definetly, the answer is no. You went to a GW.

I bought my first GW stuff from an independent and that was in the UK, when the internet was only being used by supercomputers. I only saw an actual GW when I went to university. GW isn't so prevalent in the UK as people claim.

Today I think that the independents are having a bit of an renaissance, the old tiny and cluttered shops hidden away on back streets are giving way to larger, event centred venues.

GW's shops are there almost entirely for advertising, there are much more effiecient ways fo simply selling toy soldiers and GW evidently doesn't want anything to do with them.

ahzek wrote:
Please note this isnt a GW bashing thread (yeah i know), nor is it directly a pricing thread

We all know it costs more to buy models firectly from Games workshop than from independents, but I was wondering what the guys in the stores can do to compete with those Independent traders.

Im sure price is a huge deciding factor for a lot of people, but what about convenience, or customer service? Or maybe gaming space, specialist knowledge (?)

Iv been thinking this because my local GW closed down recently because it wasnt making enough profit (Newport, Wales)

Like I say this isnt a bashing thread, Id ike to see intelligent comments :p

Beer. Fun. More tables, and reasons to go to the store.

I went to two different ones over the summer. The Managers were BOTH top notch, but the shop opening times were a little screwy.

I spent some time modeling and painting in there and they didn't give me static, so that made for a good time.

Had issue and whished that I would have been able to bring some... beverages, and snacks.

GW stores are not very profitable on a good day, thier so called business practices do not give local managers very much as far as wiggle room, and indi thought is punished.


Only real issue I have with them now is that going in is liken to going into a Micky D's. They don't have a personal soul as far as the stores go, they have to two the party line.