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GW Newport used to be one of the best stores about, they had 4 gaming boards in the shop and another 8 or so in the basement which was a really decent sized gaming space.

Moving from that to a 1 man broom closet sized store with only 2 demo boards was the death of games workshop newport.

Luckily firestorm games is only a 20 minute train trip away it's a stones throw from Cardiff Central, most of the older WHFB and 40k players in South Wales go there rather than GW itself, the staff are more friendly, they have a huge gaming space, even a bar and a kitchen you can use to make drinks and food and of course support all other games systems not just GW. I don't see how GW could ever compete with that.

By sticking to selling and supporting only their own product GW are driving themselves out of the store retail sector.

soupfly wrote:
..........didn't GW start as the FLGS ( I used to order FASA stuff from them ) and decide they would rather keep there profits for themselves.

Sort of.

Ian Livingstone, John Peake and Steve Jackson could get the games they like so started a shop and distributor that really exploded when they landed the European rights to D&D and other US game ranges. This ceased when they sold out to Bryan Ansell and he realised that their own games were better sellers than the imported stuff. Warhammer 3rd and WH40K:RT, you might of heard of them?

On the subject of GW stores competing. Just realised this after browsing a few store's FB pages. GW is once again rigidly sticking to their opening hours of the one man stores, so the last shopping day in them directly is Sunday the 22nd December.

Yes, let's ignore 2 days of last minute purchasing because the 23rd and Christmas eve fall on days the store is closed. Some nearby FLGSs must be jumping for joy.

 Grimtuff wrote:
On the subject of GW stores competing. Just realised this after browsing a few store's FB pages. GW is once again rigidly sticking to their opening hours of the one man stores, so the last shopping day in them directly is Sunday the 22nd December.

Yes, let's ignore 2 days of last minute purchasing because the 23rd and Christmas eve fall on days the store is closed. Some nearby FLGSs must be jumping for joy.

The manager of one of my local GWs was putting up his xmas opening hours poster today- he's shut 23/24 too. I asked him about it and he said it was entirely up to individual managers' discretion. He reckoned it was a pretty even split between managers who were opening and who were staying shut. Personally he said those days were fairly dead for the past 2 years, and he has a family he'd like to spend some time with over christmas...

You know you hear a lot of 'its up to us but its really not worth it' come from redshirts these days and, this time in particular, I'm inclined to call bull whenever I hear it.

I really can't imagine half of the store managers just can't see the benefit in being open those 2 days.

 jonolikespie wrote:
You know you hear a lot of 'its up to us but its really not worth it' come from redshirts these days and, this time in particular, I'm inclined to call bull whenever I hear it.

I really can't imagine half of the store managers just can't see the benefit in being open those 2 days.

Maybe they realize the company is dying-that's why they can't see the bonus in staying open during 2 of the 3 busiest days of the year.

I feel like this is all a strange paradox like situation. Most GW stores cant compete with FLGS that offer discount off retail and gaming space. Most FLGS have a hard time competing (in tabletop games) against the full 20 to 25 percent online discounters.

Maybe in a slightly ironic way we are destroying our own community areas?
Certainly GW stores could generate more traffic by space and time, but in an age of online discounters, GW and FLGS will not be able to compete for long. Even the most loyal store fan succumbs to discounts from time to time. It is after all, perfectly rational .

This is of course in reference to GW products alone. If GW did not wholesale to independents then they wouldn't have this problem. I wonder if they would ever take that step and what actual consequences (intentional and unintentional) it would yield.

 Strombones wrote:
I feel like this is all a strange paradox like situation. Most GW stores cant compete with FLGS that offer discount off retail and gaming space. Most FLGS have a hard time competing (in tabletop games) against the full 20 to 25 percent online discounters.

Maybe in a slightly ironic way we are destroying our own community areas?
Certainly GW stores could generate more traffic by space and time, but in an age of online discounters, GW and FLGS will not be able to compete for long. Even the most loyal store fan succumbs to discounts from time to time. It is after all, perfectly rational .

This is of course in reference to GW products alone. If GW did not wholesale to independents then they wouldn't have this problem. I wonder if they would ever take that step and what actual consequences (intentional and unintentional) it would yield.

My current game store seems to do a regular 10% off for all regulars. It took me about 3 trips to count as a "regular" and I get a discount all the time. I don't buy online, unless it's something they can't get. Or unless it's a kickstarter...in which case...duh! Lol. When I hated my previous gamestore before moving to Connecticut... yeah, I ordered online rather than give them the business. But I play at this store 2-3 nights a week at times, sometimes only 1, and if I want a regular place to chill with the guys, I help keep it open. It's usually busy-not packed to the point of being unable to move, but you aren't ever at a loss for playing games.

@timetowaste85

I'm with you brother. seems like you got a nice setup and like you, I would be all about keeping it open. I don't know how the population differs from where you and I are ( Charleston is roughly 700,000 tops including much of the surrounding area) but for some reason we can't manage to keep a decent games store open. I doubt that gamers here and in Connecticut are very different, so it leads me to believe that there are some very real economic phenomena occurring.

Its sad really. All I really want is a decent games club. Many of my friends agree. many of us support it at a loss to ourselves. but they never stay open. .. :(

They usually follow the same trend; Start as a games store. Become a Magic the Gathering store. Close.

 Strombones wrote:
@timetowaste85

I'm with you brother. seems like you got a nice setup and like you, I would be all about keeping it open. I don't know how the population differs from where you and I are ( Charleston is roughly 700,000 tops including much of the surrounding area) but for some reason we can't manage to keep a decent games store open. I doubt that gamers here and in Connecticut are very different, so it leads me to believe that there are some very real economic phenomena occurring.

Its sad really. All I really want is a decent games club. Many of my friends agree. many of us support it at a loss to ourselves. but they never stay open. .. :(

They usually follow the same trend; Start as a games store. Become a Magic the Gathering store. Close.

It's all about being a part of the community. My old store sucked/sucks and has been circling the drain for years. The owner is hemorrhaging money out of his own pocket. He doesn't run events at all, other than one open game night and Magic. A new store popped up in town that my friend is a co-owner of, and the college kids are pouring out of the wood works to get in. He's hosting events, throwing flyers up all over campus, sending messages to friends who own game stores an hour away to work together on events and get cross pollination...community. Gamers gotta stick together, yo. My new place is like that-congregate at the store most of the time, but many semi-local events take place and everyone gets involved. No activity in the gaming community and only running a store has seemed to fail, based on the experiences I've seen.

 jonolikespie wrote:
You know you hear a lot of 'its up to us but its really not worth it' come from redshirts these days and, this time in particular, I'm inclined to call bull whenever I hear it.

I really can't imagine half of the store managers just can't see the benefit in being open those 2 days.

Well, what is the incentive? Sure there might be a lot of sales that day, but the managers and employees don't see any of that money. They don't get paid a commission or anything.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
You know you hear a lot of 'its up to us but its really not worth it' come from redshirts these days and, this time in particular, I'm inclined to call bull whenever I hear it.

I really can't imagine half of the store managers just can't see the benefit in being open those 2 days.

Well, what is the incentive? Sure there might be a lot of sales that day, but the managers and employees don't see any of that money. They don't get paid a commission or anything.

They don't directly get paid commission but their salarys are based on their sales figures and they are by all accounts constantly under pressure to increase sales on last year and those that don't are replaced.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
You know you hear a lot of 'its up to us but its really not worth it' come from redshirts these days and, this time in particular, I'm inclined to call bull whenever I hear it.

I really can't imagine half of the store managers just can't see the benefit in being open those 2 days.

Well, what is the incentive? Sure there might be a lot of sales that day, but the managers and employees don't see any of that money. They don't get paid a commission or anything.

They don't directly get paid commission but their salarys are based on their sales figures and they are by all accounts constantly under pressure to increase sales on last year and those that don't are replaced.

So no then. There is basically no incentive to be open and if GW makes it optional then screw it. Id go home and be with my family too. Those last two days are not going to make or break you. If you ever worked retail, you know those are the crappy slave days, nobody would work them unless they were forced to.

 azreal13 wrote:

 notprop wrote:
It's a business model that has made GW the biggest wargames manufacturer by a factor of about ten.

That's terrible?

Not really, the current method is a much more recent change, they've been the biggest for a lot longer.

It's the business model that seems to have brought growth grinding to a near halt while all those around them seem to be enjoying an unprecedented era of growth.

uyi


what advertising would you propose then?

DM, Press buying, Online ads, commercial tv? these things are not cheap and require a specialist team/s to manage these and ensure that corporate governance is met, so its not just the cost of the advertising its the additional costs to the employees devoted to this at head office, do you keep the design of this in house is yes then you need more people in your creative studio, if no you have additional costs for this being contracted out to an agency.

to me the uk model works quite well and grimtuffs example of Lincoln holds true to most places in the UK the main towns cities have strong wargaming clubs which are gw centric.

tbh i think the US and other areas they have spread to thin, and should focus on the state level and try and saturate the market there and build it up, and complely bypass states which dont fit a certain population density metric,

 Peregrine wrote:

On the other hand, in countries where GW stores dominate and there isn't a market full of independent stores already in place losing those GW stores would do serious damage to the hobby because there would be nothing left to cover their absence. The community would have nowhere to buy and play (at least without inconvenient travel requirements), and GW would have nowhere to sell their products.

I think that this is an overestimation. On the supply side online retailers would continue to provide their services and there would be a stimulus for new independents to open. There are three types of FLGS in the UK, small little and badly run man caves (who have mostly been put out of business by online retailers anyway, small retailers with an online store (like the Troll Trader) and larger retailers with a physical and online presence and plenty of gaming space (like Maelstrom before it imploded) and its the latter that I would suspect would begin to proliferate. If GW's retail arm vanished overnight (which would only happen if the company went bankrupt) then there would be an impact on wargaming but it won't be crippling and it won't be long lasting.

On the gaming side there will still be plenty of clubs, I suspect, but obviously cannot prove, that the majority of wargaming is done either in clubs or in private homes and very little is done within GWs. Little Timmy and his friends may well be cast adrift if his local GW closed but even then there are clubs which cater to children (there is a medium sized club just down the road from me whose membership appears to be mostly kids). I haven't so much as rolled a dice in a GW shop for years, I think the last time was when War of the Ring was released and I had a demo game. I understand that in the US the FLGS tends to be the epicentre of local gaming but in the UK it tends to be the local club.

cammy wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 notprop wrote:
It's a business model that has made GW the biggest wargames manufacturer by a factor of about ten.

That's terrible?

Not really, the current method is a much more recent change, they've been the biggest for a lot longer.

It's the business model that seems to have brought growth grinding to a near halt while all those around them seem to be enjoying an unprecedented era of growth.

uyi

what advertising would you propose then?

DM, Press buying, Online ads, commercial tv? these things are not cheap and require a specialist team/s to manage these and ensure that corporate governance is met, so its not just the cost of the advertising its the additional costs to the employees devoted to this at head office, do you keep the design of this in house is yes then you need more people in your creative studio, if no you have additional costs for this being contracted out to an agency.

Not working for GW, I don't have the necessary info to make that call, but I think they've already tried several methods, with some degree of success, such as the DeAgostini/LOTR thing, and DoW and SM videogames. These get Warhammer and GW out in the wider domain, reaching a wider audience, and still potentially generate revenue. It looks pretty obvious from comments made in Financial Reports by Kirby and various other instances, that GW simply do not believe in working with outside agencies, I believe much to their detriment. Rather than get behind cross platforms products and really try and drive sales of their core offering, they seem content to hunker down behind their moat and wall and just collect the licence fee.

to me the uk model works quite well and grimtuffs example of Lincoln holds true to most places in the UK the main towns cities have strong wargaming clubs which are gw centric.

Works well for who?

You can make a convincing argument that GW's market share, whilst still dominant, is shrinking. You can make the related argument that their income has stayed relatively flat while evidence suggests that the wargaming/hobby market as a whole is growing.

It doesn't seem to work for a lot of people, certainly only a handful of our club play at our local GW anymore. In fact, the manager recently posted in our Facebook page trying to bring players in. This was a remarkable turnaround, as previously we hadn't been able to get any sort of relationship going with him at a club level (perfectly decent bloke, one on one) because we "play other games" which brings him out in a cold sweat! He also refused to promote us in store because we weren't GCN registered, which again sounds like one of the "sorry, my hands are tied" or "sorry, just not worth it" type arguments others have mentioned. We have good reason, GCN require separate public liability cover for clubs, and won't accept that the hall we hire includes public liability as part of the fee, and frankly we do just fine for members without the help.

In fact, we aren't what I'd describe as "GW centric" While 40K is popular, it probably accounts for about 1/3 of games played on a normal night, and Fantasy barely registers most weeks.

I walked past the store on it's traditional club night recently, only to see the guy in there by himself. Then it made sense. This is going to vary from place to place of course, but as with anyone else, I can only really comment on my experiences.

tbh i think the US and other areas they have spread to thin, and should focus on the state level and try and saturate the market there and build it up, and complely bypass states which dont fit a certain population density metric,

The US is a graveyard for European companies, any corporation from this side of the Atlantic that makes a success of it in the US is very much an exception. The fact that GW still tries to maintain a token presence over there, rather than adjust their approach and embrace the much more deeply established network of independents is just as likely down to hubris on their part at the moment as anything else.

cammy wrote:

to me the uk model works quite well and grimtuffs example of Lincoln holds true to most places in the UK the main towns cities have strong wargaming clubs which are gw centric.

I think you may have misinterpreted a little. Whilst GW has a more or less of a stranglehold on our city, this is to the detriment of the gaming club the community has formed. People become set in their ways of "GW or nothing else" (remember the time they wanted to ban non-GW games from being played up at the club? Glad that one got shot down PDQ) and are unwilling to even try anything new despite playing in an environment where they have no such restrictions.

Thus we have the phenomenon (in the UK certainly at least) of "GW towns", where they have been the only game in town for so long (a good opposite example in the UK IMO is Burton-on-Trent, with Spirit Games being the "go to" place for so long then GW all of a sudden appear) that people have become indoctrinated without even realising it.

This is obviously quite an amazing thing that GW has managed to pull off (maybe without even realising it themselves) maintaining loyalty simply through ubiquity. I cannot count the amount of times I've heard people say the only reason they play is because everyone else does (or conversely the reason they won't try Warmachine for example is due to lack of opponents, or it would eat into their monthly "GW budget"). This is why I'm confident they would survive in the UK if you got rid of all of the stores. GW has indirectly created these clubs with incredibly strong ties to the company's games, whilst this is good for GW, it is a little bad for the hobby as a whole.

 Grimtuff wrote:
whilst this is good for GW, it is a little bad for the hobby as a whole.

I'd argue that GWs 'we are the hobby' policy is a cancer on wargaming in general but yeah, there is no denying that kind of mindset sucks. We didn't even get a GW store in my area until like 1.5/2 years ago but the community that has built up here in that time is terrible. They play 40k, a few of them have dipped their toes in fantasy and one or two even play it almost as much as they play 40k but despite not playing at the GW store I still get funny looks* for mentioning anything other than GW games.


*The saddest part though is that while most of these funny looks are 'what is this 'other game' you speak of' a few of them are 'get the out, I don't want you poisoning my club with this nonsense'.
Hmm.. perhaps I should be posting this in the bad store stories thread..

 jonolikespie wrote:



*The saddest part though is that while most of these funny looks are 'what is this 'other game' you speak of' a few of them are 'get the out, I don't want you poisoning my club with this nonsense'.
Hmm.. perhaps I should be posting this in the bad store stories thread..

Oh, don't get me wrong. The "proposal" I mentioned was met with pretty much open revolt by pretty much everyone. But will they go play these games? Nope. But many of these non-GW games are stagnating with their own cliques that cannot grow or just become a FOTM once any official support left, such as with the case of Heroclix.

These are the things I've seen work for FLGS

- Run regular tournaments with some sort of prizes. The tournament has some level of buy-in to compete. What I've typically seen is $5 for constructed tournaments (MtG, Yugio, Pokeman, etc.) $15 for MtG draft. This allows the store to pay for at least the time of the person running the tournament. The goal is to get people in seats so they can sell product associated with the game (sleeves, packs, dice, mats, etc.).

- Have some sort of food service. The biggest table top store near me has a full cafe in it. Again, gaming it merely there to get people in the store where the store then makes money off food and impulse buys.

- Offer discounts based on attendance and regular purchases. Basically recognizing that margin can be compromised for volume.

Things I have seen that don't work

- Having limited product in store; basically having to order everything. If the store is going to order it, then I might as well order it and get a discount.

- Charging full retail all the time. Why would I pay full retail when I can get a discount.

- No draw to have people in the store. Tournaments, regular gaming nights and other methods need to be employed to get the community together, otherwise the barrier to fun is much steeper and thus people loose interest.

- No food, drink or bathrooms. This lets me leave the store and thus I might not come back.

It basically boils down to the FLGS needs to create an environment where I can meet fellow gamers to play said game, cater to my basic human needs while I am there and make it so I can make impulse purchases that I feel like I'm not getting screwed on.

 Grimtuff wrote:

cammy wrote:

to me the uk model works quite well and grimtuffs example of Lincoln holds true to most places in the UK the main towns cities have strong wargaming clubs which are gw centric.

I think you may have misinterpreted a little. Whilst GW has a more or less of a stranglehold on our city, this is to the detriment of the gaming club the community has formed. People become set in their ways of "GW or nothing else" (remember the time they wanted to ban non-GW games from being played up at the club? Glad that one got shot down PDQ) and are unwilling to even try anything new despite playing in an environment where they have no such restrictions.

Thus we have the phenomenon (in the UK certainly at least) of "GW towns", where they have been the only game in town for so long (a good opposite example in the UK IMO is Burton-on-Trent, with Spirit Games being the "go to" place for so long then GW all of a sudden appear) that people have become indoctrinated without even realising it.

This is obviously quite an amazing thing that GW has managed to pull off (maybe without even realising it themselves) maintaining loyalty simply through ubiquity. I cannot count the amount of times I've heard people say the only reason they play is because everyone else does (or conversely the reason they won't try Warmachine for example is due to lack of opponents, or it would eat into their monthly "GW budget"). This is why I'm confident they would survive in the UK if you got rid of all of the stores. GW has indirectly created these clubs with incredibly strong ties to the company's games, whilst this is good for GW, it is a little bad for the hobby as a whole.

well said...

Where I am, I attend the Warlords of Walsall if you must know, we have started to bust the GW mentality. However I'm personally stuck in the middle of this process, which is bloody annoying sometimes I like warmachine and we do have a few regulars but the 40k lot are more reliable on a weekly basis.

This was highlighted last weekend when we did a charity event, we had 6 40k players, 6-8 fantasy and the other 20+ were warmahordes players. Its going to be a wargaming new year resolution of mine to play more warmachine and let my 40k projects sit in the painting stage for longer- even if I'm starting Eldar.

Also most of the GWs in Birmingham and surrounding areas are accessible by public transport as not all of us have personal transport to get to some of the independents who are a bit out of the way. And that is a big factor personally, as well as the fact the independent that is accessible is a bit 'stuffy' to say the least. Whereas the GW staff are far more polite/'welcoming' even if you have to ward a few off...

And this is the problem... GW is so 'common' in many areas it seems very difficult to make people realise that there are other games out there, moreover some seem to fear the other games when you say you are playing them on a particular week.

Still whenever I pop in to my 'local' GW its mostly full of kids who have no idea of what they are doing and will probably never attend our club despite the fact we will offer far more 'challenging' games

 Chute82 wrote:
They have to be doing something right since I see stores opening here in the United States in the White Dwarf mag. Not sure what it is but some investor has put his money on the line looking for a return. Never been to a GW store and don't have one near me. So I really don't know what they have to offer besides models at retail cost

This is not really true at all. Public companies will often open new stores so that they appear to be growing, or want to try tapping a new market. Borders was opening new stores in the US up until basically the year they went out of buisiness. So opening stores says nothing of success.

GW by and large would be much better off canning their retail army and letting other LGS sell their product. They would probably get a much larger bang for their buck by hiring sales staff that went to those stores and ran events, stocked displays, ran demos etc like plenty of other companies do (not just in gaming but elsewhere companies have merchandisers that make sure their products are displayed in a satisfactory manner, do sales demonstrations etc.) If you had these guys regionally and paid them the same as a current GW manager...and they worked with the retailers...I think you would see a much better result. As it is having a brick and mortar is just a drain on GWs resources for little real return.

I also agree that in the US in many places you never see a GW getting into the game. I found it at my local comic shop growing up...at game stores etc now. I started the game in maybe 1994 and the first time I actually was in a GW was maybe 3 years ago.

Some kind of loyalty card would be nice to see. That apears to be how the big video game retailers work in the UK with things like bonus points if you re-order items for first day pick collection.

It will never happen!

GW by and large would be much better off canning their retail army and letting other LGS sell their product. They would probably get a much larger bang for their buck by hiring sales staff that went to those stores and ran events, stocked displays, ran demos etc like plenty of other companies do (not just in gaming but elsewhere companies have merchandisers that make sure their products are displayed in a satisfactory manner, do sales demonstrations etc.) If you had these guys regionally and paid them the same as a current GW manager...and they worked with the retailers...I think you would see a much better result. As it is having a brick and mortar is just a drain on GWs resources for little real return.

I think GW is too arrogant to admit that giving up the 40% margin by selling purely to FLGS and other retailers is more profitable in the long run. I think they still think they can get 80% (or whatever) of the market tied up by serving the customer directly and thus bath in the extra 40% margin. Truth is they will never get that penetrated in the market.

 azreal13 wrote:
The fact that GW still tries to maintain a token presence over there, rather than adjust their approach and embrace the much more deeply established network of independents is just as likely down to hubris on their part at the moment as anything else.

I kind of have to agree with this, to a point.

GW experienced far more growth in the USA when they actively supported FLGS and the tournament scene than they have since they started their own network of retail stores. One would have a hard time arguing that their retail chain is less expensive to operate than a group of sales people who traveled around to various FLGS's promoting sales and the hobby would be. In the USA, it is far more likely that a person's first experience with a GW TTG came from a FLGS than from a GW store, even today with the GW retail network. I feel that GW would be far more successful in the USA if they scrapped their retail presence and spent that money on reaching out to FLGS's and providing support to that gaming community like they did 10+ years ago.

There's a lot of good ideas here as to what GW *could* do, but what they actually try to do, and will likely continue to do is quite different.

Most of the folks here seem to be from the UK or US; makes sense, they're the biggest market and all, but you can get a "sneak peak" at what might happen down the line by looking at secondary markets like here in Canada.

Much like the US, we've got a pretty well enshrined independent retailer tradition; comic books, sports collectibles, 40k/other miniatures, board games and gaming space under one roof. Since our population is extremely spread out between a handful of high-density regions, there'll be a handful of stores per city, their size and market focus dependent on where they are (downtown versus suburbs, etc). Most of these stores' owners know one another, and design their business to minimize competition and can and will relocate to suit changing demographics and development.

About, oh, 7 years ago, GW had a fairly good footprint here in Vancouver. This city has one of the more active wargaming communities in the country, likely owing to its large size (for this country) and proximity to several major US wargaming areas along the west coast. GW had a store in the province's biggest mall, and one in each of the major downtown areas. Beginning about 3 years ago, they started closing all of them.

The catalyst for this is up for debate, but is largely attributed to the merging of GW Canada and GW USA, as while Vancouver made good money for the Canadian district, as part of the US, it's barely a drop in the bucket.

So, today, there's a single GW in a province of 7 million, and it's actually well supported by GW, designed to compete with the 5 or so major independent retailers, but in a manner most would find morally objectionable.

GW wants to drive the market through its single store, and its online interface in this market, and it does this by extremely aggressive policies against the independents, rather than in support of its store. Stock manipulation, order failures, "lost" invoices and so on. Effectively, every independent in the region can expect only an absolute minimum of their orders to be completed, with the exception of what GW views as limited-value product; i.e. finecast and The Hobbit.

As an example, Store X submits a large order to replenish its stocks (my FLGS has a huge section for GW stuff, and since they offer American retail pricing over Canadian, they move it quick). This order will be delayed for weeks, if not months (supply issues, shipping errors, etc), whereas GW proper will have no supply issues. When the order finally ships, it will consist of a minimum number of items; if Store X ordered 5 squads of cadians, GW will send 1, but if they ordered 5 finecast Farsights, they'll get all 5.

Limited time offerings like the megaforces or these new xmas bundles, well they'll be lucky to get one between the 5 stores. The only product they'll reliably get is the new releases; maintenance of stock is virtually nil. Even the new releases are getting increasingly difficult to actually get a hold of independently (2 week delay on Dark Elves, Escalation and Stronghold Assault simply aren't going to be shipped).

Because GW refuses to try and compete with the independents on any even field, they aim to undermine them as much as possible. Where a store offers good hours, better pricing, and, heaven forbid, sells non-GW product as well, they'll get only the basic amount of support the trade terms stipulate, and even that will be manipulated as much as possible. This is how GW aims to compete.

"What can GW stores do to compete"?

How about throwing the occasional sale instead of some half backed contrived coupon giving you a discount on shipping.

 Art_of_war wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

cammy wrote:

to me the uk model works quite well and grimtuffs example of Lincoln holds true to most places in the UK the main towns cities have strong wargaming clubs which are gw centric.

I think you may have misinterpreted a little. Whilst GW has a more or less of a stranglehold on our city, this is to the detriment of the gaming club the community has formed. People become set in their ways of "GW or nothing else" (remember the time they wanted to ban non-GW games from being played up at the club? Glad that one got shot down PDQ) and are unwilling to even try anything new despite playing in an environment where they have no such restrictions.

Thus we have the phenomenon (in the UK certainly at least) of "GW towns", where they have been the only game in town for so long (a good opposite example in the UK IMO is Burton-on-Trent, with Spirit Games being the "go to" place for so long then GW all of a sudden appear) that people have become indoctrinated without even realising it.

This is obviously quite an amazing thing that GW has managed to pull off (maybe without even realising it themselves) maintaining loyalty simply through ubiquity. I cannot count the amount of times I've heard people say the only reason they play is because everyone else does (or conversely the reason they won't try Warmachine for example is due to lack of opponents, or it would eat into their monthly "GW budget"). This is why I'm confident they would survive in the UK if you got rid of all of the stores. GW has indirectly created these clubs with incredibly strong ties to the company's games, whilst this is good for GW, it is a little bad for the hobby as a whole.

well said...

Where I am, I attend the Warlords of Walsall if you must know, we have started to bust the GW mentality. However I'm personally stuck in the middle of this process, which is bloody annoying sometimes I like warmachine and we do have a few regulars but the 40k lot are more reliable on a weekly basis.

This was highlighted last weekend when we did a charity event, we had 6 40k players, 6-8 fantasy and the other 20+ were warmahordes players. Its going to be a wargaming new year resolution of mine to play more warmachine and let my 40k projects sit in the painting stage for longer- even if I'm starting Eldar.

Also most of the GWs in Birmingham and surrounding areas are accessible by public transport as not all of us have personal transport to get to some of the independents who are a bit out of the way. And that is a big factor personally, as well as the fact the independent that is accessible is a bit 'stuffy' to say the least. Whereas the GW staff are far more polite/'welcoming' even if you have to ward a few off...

And this is the problem... GW is so 'common' in many areas it seems very difficult to make people realise that there are other games out there, moreover some seem to fear the other games when you say you are playing them on a particular week.

Still whenever I pop in to my 'local' GW its mostly full of kids who have no idea of what they are doing and will probably never attend our club despite the fact we will offer far more 'challenging' games

i might have to get a game against you sometime then as Warlords is my local club! however i didnt have a great experiance the first couple of times i went so i never went back. worth another try though

 azreal13 wrote:

cammy wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 notprop wrote:
It's a business model that has made GW the biggest wargames manufacturer by a factor of about ten.

That's terrible?

Not really, the current method is a much more recent change, they've been the biggest for a lot longer.

It's the business model that seems to have brought growth grinding to a near halt while all those around them seem to be enjoying an unprecedented era of growth.

uyi

what advertising would you propose then?

DM, Press buying, Online ads, commercial tv? these things are not cheap and require a specialist team/s to manage these and ensure that corporate governance is met, so its not just the cost of the advertising its the additional costs to the employees devoted to this at head office, do you keep the design of this in house is yes then you need more people in your creative studio, if no you have additional costs for this being contracted out to an agency.

Not working for GW, I don't have the necessary info to make that call, but I think they've already tried several methods, with some degree of success, such as the DeAgostini/LOTR thing, and DoW and SM videogames. These get Warhammer and GW out in the wider domain, reaching a wider audience, and still potentially generate revenue. It looks pretty obvious from comments made in Financial Reports by Kirby and various other instances, that GW simply do not believe in working with outside agencies, I believe much to their detriment. Rather than get behind cross platforms products and really try and drive sales of their core offering, they seem content to hunker down behind their moat and wall and just collect the licence fee.

to me the uk model works quite well and grimtuffs example of Lincoln holds true to most places in the UK the main towns cities have strong wargaming clubs which are gw centric.

Works well for who?

You can make a convincing argument that GW's market share, whilst still dominant, is shrinking. You can make the related argument that their income has stayed relatively flat while evidence suggests that the wargaming/hobby market as a whole is growing.

It doesn't seem to work for a lot of people, certainly only a handful of our club play at our local GW anymore. In fact, the manager recently posted in our Facebook page trying to bring players in. This was a remarkable turnaround, as previously we hadn't been able to get any sort of relationship going with him at a club level (perfectly decent bloke, one on one) because we "play other games" which brings him out in a cold sweat! He also refused to promote us in store because we weren't GCN registered, which again sounds like one of the "sorry, my hands are tied" or "sorry, just not worth it" type arguments others have mentioned. We have good reason, GCN require separate public liability cover for clubs, and won't accept that the hall we hire includes public liability as part of the fee, and frankly we do just fine for members without the help.

In fact, we aren't what I'd describe as "GW centric" While 40K is popular, it probably accounts for about 1/3 of games played on a normal night, and Fantasy barely registers most weeks.

I walked past the store on it's traditional club night recently, only to see the guy in there by himself. Then it made sense. This is going to vary from place to place of course, but as with anyone else, I can only really comment on my experiences.

tbh i think the US and other areas they have spread to thin, and should focus on the state level and try and saturate the market there and build it up, and complely bypass states which dont fit a certain population density metric,

The US is a graveyard for European companies, any corporation from this side of the Atlantic that makes a success of it in the US is very much an exception. The fact that GW still tries to maintain a token presence over there, rather than adjust their approach and embrace the much more deeply established network of independents is just as likely down to hubris on their part at the moment as anything else.

I know a few guys at the Cwmbran store had a similar experience with gaming going then coming back, apparently scrapping gaming was a pressure from above that has now gone away, probably as sales dropped

OTOH One of the stores I popped into somewhere else. (Can't remember where) told me their gaming space was scrapped because the users were buying elsewhere


I don't know how I'd feel if I worked in a store and the only people I saw were gamers who we're buying elsewhere, especially with something like gw because it is cheaper elsewhere

 Strombones wrote:
I feel like this is all a strange paradox like situation. Most GW stores cant compete with FLGS that offer discount off retail and gaming space. Most FLGS have a hard time competing (in tabletop games) against the full 20 to 25 percent online discounters.

Maybe in a slightly ironic way we are destroying our own community areas?
Certainly GW stores could generate more traffic by space and time, but in an age of online discounters, GW and FLGS will not be able to compete for long. Even the most loyal store fan succumbs to discounts from time to time. It is after all, perfectly rational .

This is of course in reference to GW products alone. If GW did not wholesale to independents then they wouldn't have this problem. I wonder if they would ever take that step and what actual consequences (intentional and unintentional) it would yield.

The presence of a GW in my area is actually eliminating any presence of a lfgs in my area. All retailers that did sell WHF40k quit selling it with the arrival of the GW shop.