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It says to activate it at the beginning of the movement phase (i.e. before you do anything else).

But technically the bearer isnt even on the table, and 40k rules usually are only applying to models that are present on the table, and for those rules that are relevant to units not on the table, the rules only tell them when to arrive, where and how to arrive etc.

So can I already have tank-hunter suits the turn i deep strike with a PNE to use against enemy armor?

Isn't there an FAQ entry about special rules and wargear used at the beginning of the turn/movement phase?

There's a rule, on page 125 (second paragraph, in bold) that stops most things that must be used at the start of the turn from being used when arriving from reserves.

I do seem to remember however, there was an argument that one piece of Tau equipment got around that rule, but I'm not sure it was the PNE?

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Can't find anything in the main rulebook FAQ or Tau FAQ about it. Things like generating Warp charges still happens when the Psyker is in reserve, so it's not a blanket rule that things can't happen in reserves, just generally you can't measure to anything and the bit on P125 prevents alot of things.

The main argument I happen to agree with was:

you are not using the special power, you are just selecting it. The ability you select does not get used till later in your turn when powers are actually allowed.

But yes it was a huge debate a few months ago.

Except you ARE using a special rule, otherwise you would not be able to pick a rule.

No, RAW you cannot use it.

Nothing says you can't use a special rule. It says you can't use powers that happen in the movement phase when you deep strike.

No power is being used in the movement phase. You are just picking one that gets used later.

To prove your point: please list what named power is being invoked in the movement phase?

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Nothing says you can't use a special rule. It says you can't use powers that happen in the movement phase when you deep strike.

p125 wrote:Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

Is the PNE an ability or special rule?

PNE is a purchased Wargear.

The similar wording in question is Logan Grimnar and his High King ability. It was FAQ'd to work the turn they arrive from deep strike, and it is worded very similar to the way the PEN is worded. I would say yes because of those similarities.

 Mulletdude wrote:
The similar wording in question is Logan Grimnar and his High King ability. It was FAQ'd to work the turn they arrive from deep strike, and it is worded very similar to the way the PEN is worded. I would say yes because of those similarities.

So does every other special rule that is used at the start of the turn.
Using an FAQ made just for a Special Character to completely eliminate a rule, just isn't right.

 thejughead wrote:
PNE is a purchased Wargear.

... That grants you the ability to choose a special rule.

 Mulletdude wrote:
The similar wording in question is Logan Grimnar and his High King ability. It was FAQ'd to work the turn they arrive from deep strike, and it is worded very similar to the way the PEN is worded. I would say yes because of those similarities.

And no Independent Characters can join units in drop pods because Tyranid IC's cannot do so for some stupid reason. Unless otherwise specified, the rule would not work without a FAQ

I am of the opinion that you can use the PEN chip on the turn you deepstrike for this reason.

Psykers have no choice, they MUST generate warp charges at the start of the turn.. even when they deep strike.

The wording on the PEN chip says "Choose one of 4 abilities" not "You may choose", you HAVE to pick a power much like a Psyker HAS to generate warp charges.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Nothing says you can't use a special rule. It says you can't use powers that happen in the movement phase when you deep strike.

No power is being used in the movement phase. You are just picking one that gets used later.

To prove your point: please list what named power is being invoked in the movement phase?

What, apart from where it says you can't use special rules?

The special rule PEC is being used, otherwise you have no permission to pick a rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Nothing says you can't use a special rule. It says you can't use powers that happen in the movement phase when you deep strike.

No power is being used in the movement phase. You are just picking one that gets used later.

To prove your point: please list what named power is being invoked in the movement phase?

What, apart from where it says you can't use special rules?

The special rule PEC is being used, otherwise you have no permission to pick a rule.

You dodged the question so I'll answer it.

What special rule is being used by the PEN chip in the movement phase?
A: none. You are choosing an ability, note using it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Nothing says you can't use a special rule. It says you can't use powers that happen in the movement phase when you deep strike.

p125 wrote:Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

Is the PNE an ability or special rule?

Nether.
Does an iridium battle suit make a tau commanders toughness 5 the turn it arrives from deep strike?

Let's see... One modifies a profile, the other grants an ability. I wonder if those are comparable.

Oh, no - not in this situation they aren't. They have nothing to do with each other.

rigeld2 wrote:
Let's see... One modifies a profile, the other grants an ability. I wonder if those are comparable.

Oh, no - not in this situation they aren't. They have nothing to do with each other.

Grants an ability yes.

You are not prevented from being granted an ability in the movement phase of the turn you arrive.
You are not using an ability at that time.


What about stealth suits arriving by deepstrike? Do they receive stealth or shrouded the turn they arrive?

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Let's see... One modifies a profile, the other grants an ability. I wonder if those are comparable.

Oh, no - not in this situation they aren't. They have nothing to do with each other.

Grants an ability yes.

You are not prevented from being granted an ability in the movement phase of the turn you arrive.
You are not using an ability at that time.

You're not? How are you choosing a special rule?

What about stealth suits arriving by deepstrike? Do they receive stealth or shrouded the turn they arrive?

They have the special rule. They don't use the special rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Let's see... One modifies a profile, the other grants an ability. I wonder if those are comparable.

Oh, no - not in this situation they aren't. They have nothing to do with each other.

Grants an ability yes.

You are not prevented from being granted an ability in the movement phase of the turn you arrive.
You are not using an ability at that time.

You're not? How are you choosing a special rule?

What about stealth suits arriving by deepstrike? Do they receive stealth or shrouded the turn they arrive?

They have the special rule. They don't use the special rule.

They have a special rule granted to them by wargear, just like the chip.


If you are prevented from making a decision after a deepstrike, please back that up with a page number.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Let's see... One modifies a profile, the other grants an ability. I wonder if those are comparable.

Oh, no - not in this situation they aren't. They have nothing to do with each other.

Grants an ability yes.

You are not prevented from being granted an ability in the movement phase of the turn you arrive.
You are not using an ability at that time.


What about stealth suits arriving by deepstrike? Do they receive stealth or shrouded the turn they arrive?

Do you have to declare that the suit is giving them Stealth or Shrouded at the beginning of the turn? How about the PEN?

Fragile wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Let's see... One modifies a profile, the other grants an ability. I wonder if those are comparable.

Oh, no - not in this situation they aren't. They have nothing to do with each other.

Grants an ability yes.

You are not prevented from being granted an ability in the movement phase of the turn you arrive.
You are not using an ability at that time.


What about stealth suits arriving by deepstrike? Do they receive stealth or shrouded the turn they arrive?

Do you have to declare that the suit is giving them Stealth or Shrouded at the beginning of the turn? How about the PEN?

Again: quote the restriction preventing you from making a decision after deepstriking, as you are not using the special rule till later in your turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To simplify the counter argument:

Stealth suits grant Stealth and shrouded = ok after deepstrike

PEN granting one of three abilities =/= OK after deepstriking because you are told to choose one.

The ability to pick a special rule is what you're denied from using. Rule has already been cited.

rigeld2 wrote:
The ability to pick a special rule is what you're denied from using. Rule has already been cited.

Actually, that denial is not listed in the rules.

Decicion making is listed no where in the special rules section if the BRB. Please point out where it is listed as an ability or special rule. You are told to make a decision. A decision is not using an ability nor a special rule. Hence there is nothing preventing you from using it as you are granted permission to make the decision, but never denied it.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The ability to pick a special rule is what you're denied from using. Rule has already been cited.

Actually, that denial is not listed in the rules.

Decicion making is listed no where in the special rules section if the BRB. Please point out where it is listed as an ability or special rule. You are told to make a decision. A decision is not using an ability nor a special rule. Hence there is nothing preventing you from using it as you are granted permission to make the decision, but never denied it.

So the model has no ability that let's him choose a special rule?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The ability to pick a special rule is what you're denied from using. Rule has already been cited.

Actually, that denial is not listed in the rules.

Decicion making is listed no where in the special rules section if the BRB. Please point out where it is listed as an ability or special rule. You are told to make a decision. A decision is not using an ability nor a special rule. Hence there is nothing preventing you from using it as you are granted permission to make the decision, but never denied it.

So the model has no ability that let's him choose a special rule?

Does your rulebook have an ability called "special rule choosing"?

Mine doesnt. The way the PEN is worded, it always has those three soecial rules but you can only choose one per turn. Since those listed special rules dont come jnto llay till the shooting phase at the earliest, there is no conflict with deepstrike.

Then why aren't they chosen in the shooting phase?
What reason to make it the movement phase?
Perhaps exactly for the interaction with this rule.
And even if you don't feel it's a special rule itself, you're perfectly describing an ability. Something with is also barred.

 grendel083 wrote:
Then why aren't they chosen in the shooting phase?
What reason to make it the movement phase?
Perhaps exactly for the interaction with this rule.
And even if you don't feel it's a special rule itself, you're perfectly describing an ability. Something with is also barred.

You are not barred from using abilities after deepstriking. You are barred from using an ability that occures before the movement phase. So if your interpretation is that choosing which ability you have is the same as using it. Thats fine, but thats a HIWPI argument.

You are told to pick a rule...not use it.
Picking is not disallowed after deepstriking.
And the weakest support but a good indicator: another army with the same rule worded the same way was FAQ'd clarrifying that yes it could use it the turn it arrives. Precedent is not good as the sole reason, but it is decent icing on the cake.

Can you decide to use the PEN at the start of your shooting phase to pick an ability ?

Fragile wrote:
Can you decide to use the PEN at the start of your shooting phase to pick an ability ?

No because you are told not too.

But when you choose the rule is mostly irrelevant as making that choice is not the same thing as using a power or an ability.

The thing that's throwing a wrench in the works on this is some people look at the PEN as always providing those rules, like any other piece of wargear like stealth suits provide stealth and shrouded. Just with the PEN you get to pick.

Other use the fact that you have to pick as an indication that the model is using some power or ability, and that it should be disallowed when arriving by deep strike.


Facts remain facts though. Another ability that grants the same bonuses and even has the same wording is allowed.





Side question as I'm at work: is there anything in the rules that would prevent you from choosing the rule the PEN grants before the model is on the table? Since both occure simultaneously, could the PEN player elect to chose his rule, then deepstrike onto the board?

Personally, I chose not to use the ability in the first turn of combat out of respect for my opponents. The rules surrounding this piece of war-gear are a little confusing for even Rule Lawyers like myself to come to a define conclusion about. The poor quality of wording used by Game Workshop when it penned the restriction on 'start of turn' abilities and special rules is a big part of the problem. Only a very very few rules, and no ability I can think of, contain the wording that they must be used at the start of the turn. This would mean, if the requirement is for the rule being used to contain the wording 'must be used at the start of the turn,' that nearly no piece of war-gear, special rule or ability is actually effected.

The Puretide Engram NeuroChip, at this point, is capable of functioning without argument.

When you start to apply certain Frequently Asked Question answers and logical arguments to the mix it begins to get a little more messy. I, personally, do not think the writers intended to create a system where a restriction would be near impossible to apply so these arguments do need to be considered. It is just a matter of how far you take the logical conclusion and arguments, the more extreme you take it the more and more abilities and special rules are effected. I have seen conclusions ranging from denying any abilities and special rules from being applied, regardless if it has a timing requirement, to arguments that deny any special rule that contains the wordings 'must be used' at any time that could be concluded as 'at the start of the turn.'

This now means the Puretide Engran NeuroChip is denied, though it can be argued abilities that target the player could by-pass the restriction which is an interesting debate....