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Scenario one:

Commander Farsight charges into a squad of 3 Stealth Suits with one Shas'vre. The Shas'vre, being a character, challenges Farsight into a duel and Farsight accepts and slays the 'Vre before he even gets to strike.

Here are my questions:

1) The stealth team has lost combat and the remaining squad members cannot strike blows against Farsight, right?
2) One of the other Stealth suits has vectored retro-thrusters, granting them the Hit and Run special rule. Can they attempt to disengage now, since the combat is over, or do they have to take a Leadership test first for having lost the combat with a -1 modifier for losing the combat by 1?


Scenario two:

Ghazkull Thraka and 20 Boyz charge a squad of Genestealers lead by a Broodlord. Thraka challenges the Broodlord, he refuses. The Boys exchange blows with the Genestrealers

Here are my questions:

1) Because the Broodlord refused, he can neither strike blows against Thraka or against the Boyz this combat phase, right?
2) Because the Broodlord refused, can Thraka strike his blows against the Genestealers?
3) What happens if the Boyz (who strike before Thraka) manage to kill all the Genestealers? Can Thraka then strike blows against the Broodlord as he is the only surviving member?

1) Correct, the challenge is considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase (p64), regardless that one of them is dead...
2) The Morale test occurs before Hit and Run (which is resolved at the end of the phase - p38)

1) Correct, the Broodlord doesn't attack at all this phase.
2) Correct, there is no challenge ongoing, so Thrakka attacks normally.
3) As there is no challenge ongoing, wounds can be allocated to the Broodlord as normal (closest or Precision).

 Quanar wrote:
1) Correct, the challenge is considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase (p64), regardless that one of them is dead...
2) The Morale test occurs before Hit and Run (which is resolved at the end of the phase - p38)

1) Correct, the Broodlord doesn't attack at all this phase.
2) Correct, there is no challenge ongoing, so Thrakka attacks normally.
3) As there is no challenge ongoing, wounds can be allocated to the Broodlord as normal (closest or Precision).

Seconded.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Quanar wrote:
1) Correct, the challenge is considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase (p64), regardless that one of them is dead...
2) The Morale test occurs before Hit and Run (which is resolved at the end of the phase - p38)

1) Correct, the Broodlord doesn't attack at all this phase.
2) Correct, there is no challenge ongoing, so Thrakka attacks normally.
3) As there is no challenge ongoing, wounds can be allocated to the Broodlord as normal (closest or Precision).

Seconded.

Thirded!

In this case what is the point of refusing a challenge if your squad is going to get ripped to shreds and the enemy will still get to attack you, but you dont?

I mean technically the only way to survive this is if you end up being more than 2" away from the enemy attackers, right?

But dont people pile in at the start of their initiative step? So Thraka could easily get into b2b with the BroodLord?

Also, can you declare a challenge on the turn you get charged by an enemy or can you only declare a challenge during your own turn's combat phase?

The point to refusing challenges? It is, as you would expect, situational. A guard blob with 5 power axes would much prefer to refuse, losing one axe but attacking with the rest, than have that single axe be killed in a challenge.

2" is a 4th edition rule. In combat ANYONE is a legal target, even 30" away, as long as at that I step one of your models was in base with the enemy.

Challenges can be declared by either player each round of combat.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
2" is a 4th edition rule. In combat ANYONE is a legal target, even 30" away, as long as at that I step one of your models was in base with the enemy.

1) So if a 50 man conscript blob charges into a unit of 5 Grey Knights, they get their 100 attacks as long as at least one guy can make it to b2b with one of the GKs?

2) In the Thraka/Broodlord situation above, by the time the boyz were finished attacking, all genestealers had died and none of the boyz or Thraka was in b2b with the Broodlord. So what situation would apply here? Isnt there a rule in 6th that you make a pile in move at the beginning of your Initiative step, so by Initiative step 1 Ghazkull could move into b2b?

 Sir Arun wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
2" is a 4th edition rule. In combat ANYONE is a legal target, even 30" away, as long as at that I step one of your models was in base with the enemy.

1) So if a 50 man conscript blob charges into a unit of 5 Grey Knights, they get their 100 attacks as long as at least one guy can make it to b2b with one of the GKs?

A model can only attack if it is in base contact or within 2" of a model that is in base contact - it is engaged if one of these requirements is true. On the other hand wounds that were inflicted by your opponents models must be allocated to models even if they are not engaged but in the same close combat.

1) No, that isnt what I said. I said *wounds* have no 2" rule - they dont. If you can make an attack, hit, wound then models have to make saves, even if they are (due to other models in between dying) 30" away.

In order to *attack* you have to be in base contact with an enemy, or within 2" of a model from your unit that is in base contact with an enemy model (slight correction of your statement Mywik)

2) In 6th you make a 3" pile in at the I step you attack. So if Ghaz is within 3" of the broodlord (and isnt already in base contact with an enemy model) then he can definitely pile in to the brood lord.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
1) No, that isnt what I said. I said *wounds* have no 2" rule - they dont. If you can make an attack, hit, wound then models have to make saves, even if they are (due to other models in between dying) 30" away.

In order to *attack* you have to be in base contact with an enemy, or within 2" of a model from your unit that is in base contact with an enemy model (slight correction of your statement Mywik)

2) In 6th you make a 3" pile in at the I step you attack. So if Ghaz is within 3" of the broodlord (and isnt already in base contact with an enemy model) then he can definitely pile in to the brood lord.

So can you use the leap frog many people do to get their character to the front of the line in a challenge? Or can you actually hide the character so it can not be challenged at the back of a konga line ? I see both strats being used in battle reports but have always been unclear as to what the RAW is on it.

Also if my Swarmlord wipes out 5 models and now even with the end of combat pile it, we don't reach base, is combat over?

The Nuances of CC and Warhammer 40k, a thing of beauty IMHO.

If your character is not engaged, ie isn't in base with an enemy, of within two inches of a member of your unit in base, at the start of the fight sub phase, then that character can neither issue or accept a challenge

If, after both sides pile in, no models end up in base contact then combat is over

[Quote\] So can you use the leap frog many people do to get their character to the front of the line in a challenge? Or can you actually hide the character so it can not be challenged at the back of a konga line ? I see both strats being used in battle reports but have always been unclear as to what the RAW is on it.

Also if my Swarmlord wipes out 5 models and now even with the end of combat pile it, we don't reach base, is combat over?

The Nuances of CC and Warhammer 40k, a thing of beauty IMHO.

Dessorag wrote:

So can you use the leap frog many people do to get their character to the front of the line in a challenge? Or can you actually hide the character so it can not be challenged at the back of a konga line ? I see both strats being used in battle reports but have always been unclear as to what the RAW is on it.

Also if my Swarmlord wipes out 5 models and now even with the end of combat pile it, we don't reach base, is combat over?

The Nuances of CC and Warhammer 40k, a thing of beauty IMHO.

BRB, section discussing how a challenge is run. You immediately move both challengers into base contact as soon as the challenge is accepted. Any character in the unit is a legal target for the challenge or the exclusion from declining.

Also, bothsides move 3" to pile in. If you kill 6" worth of units that have already had a prior pile in, grats man, you have overmurdered.

To clarify - any engaged character is eligible.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
In order to *attack* you have to be in base contact with an enemy, or within 2" of a model from your unit that is in base contact with an enemy model (slight correction of your statement Mywik).

A slight correction of your slight correction... The 'own unit' requirement doesn't exist this edition. You just have to be within 2" of a friendly model.

Damn, need to read more carefully thanks!

Also I believe if he is the only character he can't refuse a challenge.

pun3D wrote:
Also I believe if he is the only character he can't refuse a challenge.

That's not right. But if the character is in a unit all by himself (i.e. 1 model, him) then he can't refuse. Being the only character in a unit doesn't prevent you refusing, being the only model (who is also a character) does.