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I want to use my Lieber Hereticus to scout my squad onto a bunker roof so I can use the Quad gun. My squad consists of only 24" range weapons (multi-meltas and plasma guns) so I want to place my Bunker as far forward as I can.

Some have told me that I can place my bunker 8 inches forward, scout 6 inches and embark into the bunker. But does that automatically get me to the roof where the quad gun is?

If I have to use movement to climb to the roof can I measure diagonaly from the ground to the roof or at 90 degree angles? If I have to do this It seems scout will not really gain me much penetration....

When embarking a bastion, you can choose to be inside or on the battlements. You dont have to spend a turn waitign to get up to them.

The issue is you cannot embark with a scout move.

Guess we have to get use to asking a clarification before we talk about building rules in the future:
Standard Rule Book or Stronghold Assault?

Does an embark count as a move? I.E I am already in 2" when I start my movement phase?

EMbarking is movement, yes.

JinxDragon

Give me the answer for each I guess.

I plan on playing strong hold assault as I want to use the cheaper Bunker.

Can't embark or disembark with scout. Getting into or out of a Bunker is considered embarking / disembarking.

It's also not a move, it's a redeploy anywhere "entirely within 6" of it's current position" (though 12 for scout bikers etc). So yes it would be measured diagonaly.

Prologue:
Before I begin allow me to put some controversy out to begin with:- The rules for buildings are very broken so are different interpretations out there. Multiple Frequently Asked Questions have been released to try and 'tweak' the rules into something that we could use without debate. This obviously ended in 'great success' given how the rules are now even more of a mess then they begun with. One such answer even removed the building tag completely from the Battlements, I think completely by accident as the question wasn't even addressing the Battlements status as a Building, which led to some very interesting questions concerning if you are still 'embarking' without it being a building. This question is not one I can answer, I did not write the Frequently Asked Question or the Battlement section, so I chose to personally ignore it's existence till they released more precise information... which they now have with the Stronghold Assault rules, and they might of actually fixed them due to these changes but it is too soon to tell.

Basic Rule Book:
Back on topic; the original Battlement rule required the models to carry out a very unusual version of 'embarking' in order to be placed on the battlements. This embarking is explained in details within the battlement section of the book, so I won't hammer out every rule here, but it does grant us a self-contained method to carry out this embarking and rules informing us we must use these methods to move models on and off the Battlements. For any unit wishing to embark onto the Battlement, it would need to prove that it is a legal option to carry out this process. If any restrictions are in play which deny the ability to embark, then that restriction will also prevent you from embarking onto the Battlement. This is because the rules, while very unique, are still classified as embarking and the restriction is also on embarking. I do believe, without double checking, that the Scout rule contains one such restriction.

So the answer is No, you can never embark a scout in this situation.

Stronghold Assault:
Stronghold Assault informs us to completely replace the Basic Rule book's Battlement Section with a simple solution: Treat them as upper-ruins. They are ruins that do contain some noticeable additions, which I can't remember at the moment but don't believe it denies re-deployments. Given that the restriction triggered in the first book was 'embarking' and you never embark into a ruin, I do not see why this restriction will take effect under the new rules. The biggest thing that might cause issues is the fact most of these tend to be a considerable distances above the ground. In order to redeploy via scout you need to place the models no further then 6 inches from where it begins, and that vertical distance is often enough to prevent the re-deployment.

So the answer is Yes, if they can be placed within X inches of their starting point unless I am over-looking something.

Scout allows you to redeploy anywhere within 6 inches. Can you normally deploy inside a bastion? Yes. Therefore, you can use Scout to put models inside/on top of a bastion so long as every model ends up no more than 6 inches from its starting location. To meet your intent then, the bastion could be outside your deployment zone but would have to be close enough to allow you to position there on a 6 inch redeploy.

Yes. You can scout onto a battlement as long as the battlement is within the max range of the scout redeployment.

PanzerLeader wrote:
Scout allows you to redeploy anywhere within 6 inches. Can you normally deploy inside a bastion? Yes. Therefore, you can use Scout to put models inside/on top of a bastion so long as every model ends up no more than 6 inches from its starting location. To meet your intent then, the bastion could be outside your deployment zone but would have to be close enough to allow you to position there on a 6 inch redeploy.

Except for the fact Scouts specifically forbid embarking or disembarking.

Battlements have nothing to do with embarkation anymore. They are ruins, in those ruins there is a hatch to enter a buidling. In addition, scouting isn't moving, so you aren't moving onto the battlements. You're just being redeployed there.

 deviantduck wrote:
Battlements have nothing to do with embarkation anymore. They are ruins, in those ruins there is a hatch to enter a buidling. In addition, scouting isn't moving, so you aren't moving onto the battlements. You're just being redeployed there.

True, however, panzerleader said you could scout into a building. That is what I was replying to.

 Happyjew wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
Scout allows you to redeploy anywhere within 6 inches. Can you normally deploy inside a bastion? Yes. Therefore, you can use Scout to put models inside/on top of a bastion so long as every model ends up no more than 6 inches from its starting location. To meet your intent then, the bastion could be outside your deployment zone but would have to be close enough to allow you to position there on a 6 inch redeploy.

Except for the fact Scouts specifically forbid embarking or disembarking.

Scout has nothing to do with embarking or disembarking. It is a redeployment. Embarking/disembarking occur as part of movement, not deployment. Lets assume you deploy your bastion with the back end at the 13 inch mark and a 5 man squad at the edge of your deployment zone 1 inch away. Every model is within 6 inches of the entire bastion. Why would they not be allowed to redeploy into the bastion since they could normally deploy into it?

Because of the rules stating otherwise, mainly. Have you reviewed the scout rule, and the limitations this places on the redeploy?

Sometimes, it is all about asking the right question.
Remember the Stronghold rules are optional so any that differ from the "normal rules" may not apply if you and your opponent did not agree to them before the game. having that little conversation beforehand can prevent issues later by ensuring you are both on the same page.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Sometimes, it is all about asking the right question.
Remember the Stronghold rules are optional so any that differ from the "normal rules" may not apply if you and your opponent did not agree to them before the game. having that little conversation beforehand can prevent issues later by ensuring you are both on the same page.

Agreed. But in this case the Stronghold rules have no new bearing on this.
They don't change how scout works, and although the battlements rules have been improved, none of them change anything in this discussion.

No problem.

I don't have the new optional supplements but know that there are rules and additions that are different and see in threads all over here members quoting them as the new gospel as though they are not optional but rather new mandatory updates. I was just pointing that out in case there were any differences in this particular case as a reminder to them. Looks like it wasn't needed. lol

PanzerLeader wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
Scout allows you to redeploy anywhere within 6 inches. Can you normally deploy inside a bastion? Yes. Therefore, you can use Scout to put models inside/on top of a bastion so long as every model ends up no more than 6 inches from its starting location. To meet your intent then, the bastion could be outside your deployment zone but would have to be close enough to allow you to position there on a 6 inch redeploy.

Except for the fact Scouts specifically forbid embarking or disembarking.

Scout has nothing to do with embarking or disembarking. It is a redeployment. Embarking/disembarking occur as part of movement, not deployment. Lets assume you deploy your bastion with the back end at the 13 inch mark and a 5 man squad at the edge of your deployment zone 1 inch away. Every model is within 6 inches of the entire bastion. Why would they not be allowed to redeploy into the bastion since they could normally deploy into it?

A TO like yourself should read the actual rules involved before saying things like that.

p41 wrote:A unit cannot embark or disembark as part of a Scout redeployment.

Especially after being told that it's specifically forbidden.

rigeld2 wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
Scout allows you to redeploy anywhere within 6 inches. Can you normally deploy inside a bastion? Yes. Therefore, you can use Scout to put models inside/on top of a bastion so long as every model ends up no more than 6 inches from its starting location. To meet your intent then, the bastion could be outside your deployment zone but would have to be close enough to allow you to position there on a 6 inch redeploy.

Except for the fact Scouts specifically forbid embarking or disembarking.

Scout has nothing to do with embarking or disembarking. It is a redeployment. Embarking/disembarking occur as part of movement, not deployment. Lets assume you deploy your bastion with the back end at the 13 inch mark and a 5 man squad at the edge of your deployment zone 1 inch away. Every model is within 6 inches of the entire bastion. Why would they not be allowed to redeploy into the bastion since they could normally deploy into it?

A TO like yourself should read the actual rules involved before saying things like that.

p41 wrote:A unit cannot embark or disembark as part of a Scout redeployment.

Especially after being told that it's specifically forbidden.

A TO can rule no one with a user name "RIGELD2" is welcome in their tournament, its part of the game, and is supposed to be there. Some of the major tournaments are ruling no 2++ no more then 2 hell turkeys and no D weapons. Please do not tell a TO what he can and can not do.

Otherwise, RAW you can't deploy on top in my opinion!

He can rule that sure.
But in a discussion about *rules* in a *rules* forum where we discuss *rules* as they're written (unless you state otherwise), to make the statement he did, as a TO, is silly.

rigeld2 wrote:
He can rule that sure.
But in a discussion about *rules* in a *rules* forum where we discuss *rules* as they're written (unless you state otherwise), to make the statement he did, as a TO, is silly.

You called him out as a "TO". Next time don't and we won't have an issue

Stormbreed wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
He can rule that sure.
But in a discussion about *rules* in a *rules* forum where we discuss *rules* as they're written (unless you state otherwise), to make the statement he did, as a TO, is silly.

You called him out as a "TO". Next time don't and we won't have an issue

Yes because, as a TO, he should be familiar with the rules.
You're the one with an "issue" - your response wasn't warranted nor accurate.
I'd call anyone out on being incorrect but when someone is supposed to be familiar with the rules, is told that there's a specific exception, and then continues to argue his point apparently without looking up the rule in question I'll bring up the fact that he's supposed to be familiar with the rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
He can rule that sure.
But in a discussion about *rules* in a *rules* forum where we discuss *rules* as they're written (unless you state otherwise), to make the statement he did, as a TO, is silly.

You called him out as a "TO". Next time don't and we won't have an issue

Yes because, as a TO, he should be familiar with the rules.
You're the one with an "issue" - your response wasn't warranted nor accurate.
I'd call anyone out on being incorrect but when someone is supposed to be familiar with the rules, is told that there's a specific exception, and then continues to argue his point apparently without looking up the rule in question I'll bring up the fact that he's supposed to be familiar with the rules.

Embarking/disembarking is part of a movement yes? This is important because you only have to have all models within 2 inches of an access point to embark into a building or fortification. Are we still in agreement? Thus, you cannot use the embarking rule to essentially add free movement to a "Scout" redeploy by redeploying 6, getting everyone within two inches of the bastion, and then entering.

Now, in the situation I presented, all models still end within 6 inches of their starting position but now end up inside the bastion a place they could normally start the game deployed in. I have not employed the embarking mechanic to do so. How have I violated RAW? I've deployed models in a place they could normally deploy into without using the mechanics prohibited by the Scout rule.

Edit: Oh, and the attempt to discredit me was unnecessary when you've failed to address the specific nuance of the situation I presented. Try arguing the situation next time and not the person.

How have you violated RAW. You embarked into a building which the Scout rule says you cannot do. IF the unit was not in a building / vehicle, you cannot put it in one with a Scout redeploy.

Fragile wrote:
How have you violated RAW. You embarked into a building which the Scout rule says you cannot do. IF the unit was not in a building / vehicle, you cannot put it in one with a Scout redeploy.

Except I didn't use the embark mechanic. The Scout redeployment is not a move and specifically prohibits units from using the movement mechanics of embark/disembark. You do not roll for terrain as part of the Scout redeployment nor do you take dangerous terrain checks or follow any of the other normal movement rules because it is not a move, it is a deployment.

If all models in a unit are completely within 6" of all parts of the bastion, by strict RAW you can use the Scout redeployment to put them inside or on top of that piece of terrain without using the embark mechanic. Why? Because all models are completely within six of their starting location, you have not actually used the embark mechanic to gain 2" of free movement and they are placed inside a piece of terrain they can legally deploy into.

Granted, this is a very specific situation and you essentially have to plan your deployment around it by placing the bastion on the edge of your deployment zone and stacking the scouting unit right next to it.

Edit: Here is the crux of the argument. When you deploy a unit into a bastion during normal deployment, is it placed inside the bastion or embarked into the bastion? If you say embarked, thats fine, but I would like to see how you actually use the embark mechanic to start a unit in a piece of terrain.

PanzerLeader wrote:
Except I didn't use the embark mechanic.

So what? You embarked. It doesn't matter which mechanic you used to perform the specifically proscribed action. And shame on you for trying to weasel-word around a direct rule that cannot possibly mean anything other than "you can't do that."

Pyrian wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
Except I didn't use the embark mechanic.

So what? You embarked. It doesn't matter which mechanic you used to perform the specifically proscribed action. And shame on you for trying to weasel-word around a direct rule that cannot possibly mean anything other than "you can't do that."

Isn't that the point of a rules debate? To debate all possible interpretations? People argue RAW vs RAI vs HIWPI here all the time. This is all hypothectical and extremely situational.

Back on topic, RAI I believe the restriction is intended to prevent you from entering/exiting buildings and vehicles on a Scout redeploy.

By strict RAW, I have presented a situation in which you could hypothetically enter a building on a Scout redploy without using the embark mechanic and satisfy the strict checklist of requirements (all models within 6" of end point, did not use the embark rules as part of the Scout redeploy as those rules are defined in the movement section).

But you have used it.
The unit was outside, now they have embarked.
Other than starting embarked, the only way to embark is to embark.

Actually, there might be some support for his statement:
Take a look at page 121, Deploying within Fortifications, as it specifically states Scouts can (re)deploy into a fortification as long as it meets X, Y and Z requirements. Now those limitations makes it possible to prevent a Scout from (re)deploying into a non-purchased fortification, or even a terrain piece such as a building, because one of those restrictions is 'friendly' but the very existence of this information within the section detailing how we deploy the army is very curious. It really does make it difficult to dismiss the claim without taking more then a passing interest in it, as there has to be some mechanic to allow the restriction on embarking to work along side the permission to redeploy into a fortification.

I am finding it harder and harder to disagree with the conclusion he put forth to what that mechanic is.

It does allow these two rules to work without directly contradicting each other. After-all, deploying into a fortification would have to be considered something other then embarking or else Page 121's permission was designed to allow you to get around the Scout restrictions anyway. Also, this section of the rule book does takes great care to avoid the word embarking, which is unusual if we are meant to treat this as embarking. It's use of statements such as 're-deploy into the fortification' does give even more credit to his statement that it is meant to be considered something separate then embarking. Now there is a mention of this word embarking, strangely to state Scouts can not embark into an enemy fortification even though the Scout rule bans all embarking, but it is right after stating they can not deploy into enemy fortifications. The word they use between these two sentence is 'nor,' which is a word normally used to join two different subjects matters together.

While I am sure I am overlooking something, my Theory on this matter right now is:
You can not deploy into a building/fortification, not because it would be 'embarking' but because permission to deploy is only given in X, Z and Y situations that most buildings do not meet.