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As the title says, how do i kill a heldrake?

I've never killed one and i hate fighting the silly things, maybe i'm just bad? That's probably the reason But anywho, the armies i primarily play are Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, Orks and Chaos marines, I haven't yet killed one with my vendettas yet because i haven't played against someone with a heldrake as imperial guard yet.

But in all honesty could someone breakdown the rules of this beast for me? And is it true their template fires 4 inches from the base?

 ThunderFury 2575 wrote:
And is it true their template fires 4 inches from the base?

Nope, that's not true. It's up to 12" from the base (for the pointy end of the template, the blunt end can be further), check out the Torrent rule on page 43 of the rulebook.

They're heavily armoured (for a flier), have a 5+ invulnerable save (and so never need to jink), and can regenerate lost hull points at the end of their turn (It Will Not Die - rulebook page 38). But remember that they have a weaker rear armour (I've seen things like a LR Punisher take down a 'Drake shooting into the rear, it was hilarious!).

For Orks, Loota's and perhaps a Quad-Gun would threaten it, or a DakkaJet to the rear, but if I were the 'Drake player the Loota's would be a primary target. Facing two or more would be tricky
For Chaos, you've obviously got your own 'Drakes (which can attack the other with the Vector Strike) and any flying Daemon Princes can also Vector / Shoot it whilst Swooping.
Guard and DE don't get much Skyfire apart from their own fliers (and the Hydra). Guard could probably drown one in weight of fire depending on build, but DE can't really do that easily since Splinter weapons can't hurt it and any Lances will getting a single shot hitting on a 6.

all the armies you play have no/bad skyfire solutions due to 6ths introduction of the rule and the terrible foresight of GW. Therefore, the best way to do it is to take the flier of your respective race. IG have the vendetta, which is incredible.

Orks have dakkajets which really dont work well for shooting it down unless you can get rear arch on turn 3-4, but orks can also just load up on lootaz and shoot at only -1 BS. FW also has plenty of ork AA solutions in flak truks and such.

Chaos can take their own and S7 vector strike each other. Otherwise, FW has a half dozen options. I personally like the stormeagle with MM as its cheaper for chaos.

DE can take the voidraven and simply play around with it on the back line of your deployment. That plane really needed vector dancer though. Otherwise you really dont have much for DE.

Everyone can also take ADLs with quad guns (or bastions, or Firestorms)

Pretty much, Vendettas = dead enemy fliers of any type. S7 AP 4 weapons are really the hard way to kill these things, because they are very difficult to HP out in a reasonable amount of time. Reasonable being before they have barbequed a crippling number of your troops.

Vendetta and the new stronghold assault supplement has some amazing skyfire/interceptor options.

Vengeance battery with quad lascannons...yes please; 2 TL BS2 S9 AP2 skyfire+interceptor shots for 75 pts is nice.

Forgeworld makes reasonable skyfire options for all of those armies. Perhaps the best interceptor weapon in the game for the IG; sabre platforms.

Bela'kor is a fairly decent anti helldrake option in and of that his abilities can turn the helldrake to a liability for the opponent and he can use any AA weapon the opponent brought to kill the helldrake; probably against rear armour too.

Why is it BS 2?

I think the venegance battery is the one that can only fire as an automated defense.

 Quanar wrote:

 ThunderFury 2575 wrote:
And is it true their template fires 4 inches from the base?

Nope, that's not true. It's up to 12" from the base (for the pointy end of the template, the blunt end can be further), check out the Torrent rule on page 43 of the rulebook.

They're heavily armoured (for a flier), have a 5+ invulnerable save (and so never need to jink), and can regenerate lost hull points at the end of their turn (It Will Not Die - rulebook page 38). But remember that they have a weaker rear armour (I've seen things like a LR Punisher take down a 'Drake shooting into the rear, it was hilarious!).

For Orks, Loota's and perhaps a Quad-Gun would threaten it, or a DakkaJet to the rear, but if I were the 'Drake player the Loota's would be a primary target. Facing two or more would be tricky
For Chaos, you've obviously got your own 'Drakes (which can attack the other with the Vector Strike) and any flying Daemon Princes can also Vector / Shoot it whilst Swooping.
Guard and DE don't get much Skyfire apart from their own fliers (and the Hydra). Guard could probably drown one in weight of fire depending on build, but DE can't really do that easily since Splinter weapons can't hurt it and any Lances will getting a single shot hitting on a 6.

Sorry, i'm not very good at wording things, but what happened was my opponent measured 4 inches from the base and then placed the template, 4 inches away from the base, sounds fishy to me For my orks i have two loota squads with a dakkajet which is nice


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and, i personally don't use drakes, i use flamer bikers instead, more fun personally, that and it's kinda more sporting in my opinion because i play friendly more than competitive

You kill helldrakes in the exact same way you kill any other AV12 vehicle. I've taken down a half dozen since their codex dropped, and not once was it with any particular anti-flier weapon.

I've done it as CSM with deepstriking obliterators behind them (because their guns are twin-linked), and I've done it with foot guard who spam lots of lascannons (and have access to twin-linking with orders), and I've done it with imperial guard veterans (who just throw down a lot of meltagun shots), and I've seen it done several times with henchmen (because cheap meltas/multimeltas and access to twin-linked with prescience).

If you brought enough anti-tank, then you brought enough anti-tank to take down a helldrake. Especially since there's not much likelihood that your opponent will bring helldrakes AND other vehicles, so your lascannons/meltaguns/etc. likely don't have any better targets to fire at anyways.

Firing his torrent flamer 4" away isn't fishy at all. He can fire UP TO 12" AWAY. That's how broken the Heldrake is. It just flies on the table, belly flops on a unit, flails around for D3 AP3 hits exploding Rhinos, then takes off again going "WARBLWARBLWARBLWARBL" barfing flames everywhere that instantly melts all your units.

Heldrakes are nigh invulnerable without dedicated anti-aircraft units, and even then he can pray to the Dark Gods with his 5++ non-jink and still fire his weapon and regenerate hull points.

I can hit it easily right? Nah, it's a flyer.
Well at least if I do land a hit it'll go down, right? Nah, AV12 HP3 5++ IWND.
Well at least it's just a defensive unit, right? Nah, S6 AP3.
Well at least I can get a cover save, right? Nah, flamer.
Well at least you have to use clever positioning to shoot, right? Nah, torrent turret mounted.
Well at least it only hits one squad a turn. Nah, vector strike.
Well at least I can threaten you from trying to shoot. Nah, 5++.
Well at least it's going to be expensive to bring such a unit. Nah, 170 points.

And the best part is Heldrakes aren't even relevant these days.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

Well at least it only hits one squad a turn. Nah

Now, I'm going to go ahead and assume you play Loyal Marines, in part due to your avatar and also due to your clear dislike of Heldrakes.

However on this point I've highlighted, as a Traitor to a Loyalist, I say this.

"How the bloody hell do you like it? Huh?"

MarsNZ wrote:
"How the bloody hell do you like it? Huh?"

Toasty.

Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:I can hit it easily right? Nah, it's a flyer.

You're not bringing enough anti-tank.

Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:Well at least if I do land a hit it'll go down, right? Nah, AV12 HP3 5++ IWND.

You're not bringing enough anti-tank.

Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:Well at least it's just a defensive unit, right? Nah, S6 AP3.

It doesn't arrive until turn 2 (or later), and it's vulnerable to interceptor fire, and it doesn't hurt units in transports, or do serious damage to vehicles, monstrous creatures, or other fliers, or units spread across multiple levels of ruins, or against units with good displacement, especially when they're hordes, all of this means...

Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:And the best part is Heldrakes aren't even relevant these days.

Which is the funny part. Helldrakes aren't that good except against certain kinds of armies. Even then, though, the CSM codex is oozing units that are good against the targets helldrakes are good against, so the dread turkey isn't even that necessary.

Probably the best weapon against the helldrake is taking a step back, taking a deep breath, and stop believing the hype.

If you play orkses - you mostly can ignore drakes. Or you can take ig allies with a vendetta which is a great help-out for orkses anywayz.

Helldrakes with hades autocannons are incredible at not only taking out regular vehicles but fliers as well. The autocannon is a turret so it is relatively easy to hit rear armor on most vehicles. Combine this with the vector strike and you have a high damage potential.

Heldrakes are nigh invulnerable without dedicated anti-aircraft units, and even then he can pray to the Dark Gods with his 5++ non-jink and still fire his weapon and regenerate hull points.

Nigh invulnerable? I'm pretty sure I have never had a heldrake survive a game.

There is too much interwebz hate against the heldrake, and not enough real tabletop experience.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Firing his torrent flamer 4" away isn't fishy at all. He can fire UP TO 12" AWAY. That's how broken the Heldrake is. It just flies on the table, belly flops on a unit, flails around for D3 AP3 hits exploding Rhinos, then takes off again going "WARBLWARBLWARBLWARBL" barfing flames everywhere that instantly melts all your units.

Heldrakes are nigh invulnerable without dedicated anti-aircraft units, and even then he can pray to the Dark Gods with his 5++ non-jink and still fire his weapon and regenerate hull points.

I can hit it easily right? Nah, it's a flyer.
Well at least if I do land a hit it'll go down, right? Nah, AV12 HP3 5++ IWND.
Well at least it's just a defensive unit, right? Nah, S6 AP3.
Well at least I can get a cover save, right? Nah, flamer.
Well at least you have to use clever positioning to shoot, right? Nah, torrent turret mounted.
Well at least it only hits one squad a turn. Nah, vector strike.
Well at least I can threaten you from trying to shoot. Nah, 5++.
Well at least it's going to be expensive to bring such a unit. Nah, 170 points.

And the best part is Heldrakes aren't even relevant these days.

That's the single most accurate description I've ever heard about Helldrakes. Freak, I hate those things. They're not that good anymore and my IF and AS armies bring enough dakka to take them down, I just hate their core concept and pretty much everything about them. And Mutilators/obliterators. They're stupid too.

But seriously, my rifledreads with the Aegis don't have much of a problem against them and my Sisters with aegis, melta and even the Excorcists do pretty good as well. Once I get an inquisitor with presience they'll do even better.

As was stated, bring more anti-tank.

10 Guided Warp Spiders will kill it dead. An allied Eldar contingent for your DE isn't a bad idea. A Farseer, some jetbikes and 6-10 Warp Spiders. Clocks in at around 400 points. And you can Guide your Ravagers too.

Well as an option to every codex, you could take a Firestorm Redoubt fortification from the new Stronghold Assault. It comes with two Twin-Linked Icarus Quad-lascannons. The downside is its Auto-fire only, but you can buy an upgrade to make it BS3. 4 TL S9 AP2 Skyfire shots at BS3 means an average of 3 hits -> .5 glances, 1.5 pens -> .5 Wrecked results. You can also buy a Quadgun emplacement. The whole thing comes in just under 300 points for the Redoubt, BS3 and Quadgun.

herpguy wrote:

Heldrakes are nigh invulnerable without dedicated anti-aircraft units, and even then he can pray to the Dark Gods with his 5++ non-jink and still fire his weapon and regenerate hull points.

Nigh invulnerable? I'm pretty sure I have never had a heldrake survive a game.

There is too much interwebz hate against the heldrake, and not enough real tabletop experience.

To give you a comparison, the Heldrake has the same front AV as the Space Marine superheavy. Stop being greedy and exposing your rear AV.

I run an anti-air riptide, fusion blasters have a good time if its close enough.

Title sounds like, "to kill a mocking bird"

Seriously, my drake was shot down by psychc attacks from that sand wurm tyranid. An assault cannon from a land speeder rended it out of the sky! Vindicare even sniped it. A heavy bolter shot the rear 3 times and glanced the hull points off. 5++ is hard to roll!

Oh and my favorite was gray knights and their psy ammo!

They can't die fast enough or soon enough. I hate that model.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

herpguy wrote:

Heldrakes are nigh invulnerable without dedicated anti-aircraft units, and even then he can pray to the Dark Gods with his 5++ non-jink and still fire his weapon and regenerate hull points.

Nigh invulnerable? I'm pretty sure I have never had a heldrake survive a game.

There is too much interwebz hate against the heldrake, and not enough real tabletop experience.

To give you a comparison, the Heldrake has the same front AV as the Space Marine superheavy. Stop being greedy and exposing your rear AV.

Same front armour as one of the Space Marine super-heavies. Let's not pretend they only get one. Space Marines have a flyer with 13/13/11, and a 5++ from the front, that's a pretty tough one to take down - an AV12 Heldrake isn't that bad unless you're very unlucky or you play armies without good codex AA in a no-FW meta against lists that spam drakes. The best way to kill a Heldrake is just to use a lot of firepower that it at least two out of three of mobile, high-strength and Skyfire. OP, A unit of Dark Reapers with a Fast Shot Exarch and an Icarus Lascannon would make some nice allies for your DE and with Guide from a Farseer they'll have a not-too-horrible chance of hitting with Starshot missiles as well. Like any unit that heals/repairs, the key to effectively taking one out is to position yourself so you can bring overwhelming firepower to bear against it and blast it out of the sky in a single turn. For your IG, Sabre Platforms (easily scratchbuilt if you can't afford the FW models) and Vendettas are ideal; Chaos a pair of Hell Blades or a Storm Eagle firing into the rear arc will make shot work of it - Orks probably have the hardest time being such an old army, but a couple of Flakk Trukks and some Lootas will do a good job if you have the free slots. The Flakk Trukks can go flatout and still shoot at it because they're Orks, and in an Orks mind the best way to track a fast-moving target is to try to go equally fast - that means you shouldn't have too much trouble getting into the rear arc, where the trukks will do heavy damage. You could probably convert these from Trukks quite easily with the addition of quad-gun-type assemblies - if you're clever, have them drop into place when you want Flakk Trukks but be removable when you just want some ordinary Trukks.

Wouldn't a dakkajet be fairly good?18 strength 6 BS 3 shots in the back wouldn't be fun would it?

How do you get it in the back? That sounds like a turn 6 scenario, way to late to actually do anything.

PanzerLeader wrote:
I think the venegance battery is the one that can only fire as an automated defense.

correctomundo, making it so the only way do hit the drake is if its the closest model there, minus interseptor. Firestorm shoots at fliers before ground units though.

What about that silly new marine AA tank that fires at the back of a flyer?

Only if it misses. I think the hunter sucks, personally.

Yeah... if your IG and your on foot, use Orders like 'Bring it Down!' to make your Infantry Twin Linked against it and shoot it out of the sky. If your a Mech Guard, Your plasmas are double tapping if it fails to take out your Chimera, and your Multi-laser Turrets can help bring it down for additional fire support. Then there is the question of why are you not using Vendettas and Advisors? Really, any list with enough Dakka shouldn't have a problem against a Helldrake. About the only list is Orks, and that would be against two of them. Run two squads of 10-15 Lootas and a ADL with a Quad gun. Personally, I run Kannons and use Grots to fire the ADL Gun and use the Icarus LC and a Ammo Runt to make it twin linked.