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 Iron_Captain wrote:

After all, any Eldar, no matter how vile, is a 100 times better than those disgusting hairless apes...

And there's always the hope they'll mend their ways one day, or at least carry on some of the Eldar race if the carftworlds get wiped out.

zbg97 wrote:
My Eldar knowledge is mostly Craftworld related, but... purely fluff-wise... wouldn't CWE want to win the Dark Eldar to their side? I mean, DE tend to be sadists, but the fluff gives them the reason that it protects them from Slaanesh. CE have Spirit Stones, so they don't have to worry about Slaanesh to the same degree... A DE who didn't genuinely want to hurt everything and everyone around them would theoretically be able to join a Craftworld, while the Craftworlds could certainly use more people to restore (and stabilize?) their numbers. Vice versa, you could have Eldar who didn't want to worry about using and caring for Spirit Stones and think, "Hey, all I gotta do is hurt some Monkeighs, and I'm safe from She Who Thirsts? Win-win!" An allied force could pretty easily be justified in the fluff by the smaller group thinking about joining the larger force... unless I totally missed something.

In Thorpe's 'Path of the Warrior', there is a Dark Elf raider who switches sides after being captured, and dedicates himself to the Path of the Striking Scorpion. It is kept secret, though, as it appears to be a rare and potentially risky decision. The raider was apparently so impressed by the Scorpions that he fought pre-capture that he really wanted to join up.

SBG wrote:
In Thorpe's 'Path of the Warrior', there is a Dark Elf raider who switches sides after being captured, and dedicates himself to the Path of the Striking Scorpion. It is kept secret, though, as it appears to be a rare and potentially risky decision. The raider was apparently so impressed by the Scorpions that he fought pre-capture that he really wanted to join up.

It makes a lot of sense, if you think of each soldier as an individual. Even when generalizations are reasonably accurate, they're only accurate in the general.

I think of it like the North and the South in the US.

Each side acknowledges the other has a different way of looking at things. There's also this mutual sense of sadness for the other side, based on the belief that someone is missing all the wonderful things life has to offer.

zbg97 wrote:

SBG wrote:
In Thorpe's 'Path of the Warrior', there is a Dark Elf raider who switches sides after being captured, and dedicates himself to the Path of the Striking Scorpion. It is kept secret, though, as it appears to be a rare and potentially risky decision. The raider was apparently so impressed by the Scorpions that he fought pre-capture that he really wanted to join up.

It makes a lot of sense, if you think of each soldier as an individual. Even when generalizations are reasonably accurate, they're only accurate in the general.

The freedom of the Dark Eldar way is also very tempting to the Eldar and a few cross over - there is also the captain of a mercenary/raider vessel in Path of the Outcast who was Dark Eldar and now a more conventional corsair although she still has urges from her old life............

As others have said, despite the obvious differences between eldar and dark eldar, they will still band together if there is a threat to one or the other.

Sure, they fight amongst themselves on a regular basis, but these battles rarely inflict large numbers of casualties and, as with the Ulthwe and DE Kabal example above, they will often call a truce before things really escalate.

They will however, completely bring the pain to any race that threatens their kin, Craftworld, Commorite or Exodite, it doesn't matter.

There is another story I remember reading in WD when the Eldar went to an Imperial world (which was actually a Maiden World) and demanded the humans leave. The Imperial Governor killed the Eldar delegation and made their spirit stones into a necklace. The Eldar then declared war on the world and wiped out all the humans except the Governor, who was taken to Comorragh by the Farseer and a Harlequin Troupe and made to live in eternal agony at the hands of the Haemonculi.

So they will often work together for survival and to further their goals, but they also fight like any other family.

SBG wrote:

zbg97 wrote:
My Eldar knowledge is mostly Craftworld related, but... purely fluff-wise... wouldn't CWE want to win the Dark Eldar to their side? I mean, DE tend to be sadists, but the fluff gives them the reason that it protects them from Slaanesh. CE have Spirit Stones, so they don't have to worry about Slaanesh to the same degree... A DE who didn't genuinely want to hurt everything and everyone around them would theoretically be able to join a Craftworld, while the Craftworlds could certainly use more people to restore (and stabilize?) their numbers. Vice versa, you could have Eldar who didn't want to worry about using and caring for Spirit Stones and think, "Hey, all I gotta do is hurt some Monkeighs, and I'm safe from She Who Thirsts? Win-win!" An allied force could pretty easily be justified in the fluff by the smaller group thinking about joining the larger force... unless I totally missed something.

In Thorpe's 'Path of the Warrior', there is a Dark Elf raider who switches sides after being captured, and dedicates himself to the Path of the Striking Scorpion. It is kept secret, though, as it appears to be a rare and potentially risky decision. The raider was apparently so impressed by the Scorpions that he fought pre-capture that he really wanted to join up.

It wasn't a regular raider, if it was it wouldn't have been a big deal. Eldar outcasts and disillusioned Dark Eldar switch "side" often enough. I believe this particular "raider" was an incubi, which was also the reason for the Spider Exarch souls to be so dedicated and desperate to use their Path to restore him, because that would mean there was still hope for THEM to be restored (although I believe the Harlequins would snicker at the idea). Also, it was on Alaitoc. Alaitoc are special. Police state special.

Look at incubi, they must kill eldar in order to join the order. This says a lot about how dark eldar view eldar.

I can't reconcile Craftworld Eldar working with Dark Eldar as battle brothers with the two race's fluff.

Yes, DE would save CWE for shiggles, because it lets them prove their superiority over the CWE, or because its funny, or because it lets them capture slaves *and* humiliate their idiot cousins. I cannot accept them doing it because of some kind of Eldar solidarity.

CWE would save Dark Eldar ONLY if doing so would directly benefit the Craftworld (like if saving them somehow prevents a Waaaagh from destroying the Craftworld). No Farseer in his right mind would look at a conflict between DE and the IoM and think anything other than, "Oh, look... the silly mon'keigh and our idiot, drug-addled, Slaanesh-birthing cousins are fighting each other. With any luck, they will both kill each other off, and we proper Eldar can have a good laugh."

There is no excuse for the allies matrix in 6th Ed, as it ignores half of the fluff of various armies, or focuses entirely on a single aberrant instance or battle report to justify broad generalizations about entire factions. Simply put, DE and CWE are desperate allies at absolute best. I don't care how racist Eldar are, that isn't enough to justify the guys who survived the birth of Slaanesh voluntarily teaming up with the guys who CAUSED Slaanesh in the first place, just because the bondage freaks happen to be fighting Orks.

Godless druggy scum are still people, to puritans. Not decent people, but still way better than rats or cockroaches. And vice versa.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Considering that Wych cults are night indistinguishable from Slaanesh cultists?

Most of the non-Muslim world can't even tell the difference between Sunni and Shia and there are some violent extremists in both groups that are extremely similar in attitude and methods. It doesn't mean that they're allies. Common methods does not mean common goals or friendship. DE HATE Chaos. Especially Slaanesh.

DE and CWE are family, basically. They may disagree with how each other live, or fight from time to time, but they are family. The problem is primarily that some people come in with preconceptions, often from Fantasy, sometimes just because their minds fuse at the word 'Dark', or simply because they have a fanboy idea of what the Eldar are like, saying things like "the Eldar respect life" (a quote from this thread). All of which causes them to imagine there's some inherent feud between the two groups. The CWE are not some 'life-is-sacred' good guys faction. They're vicious sons of bitches half the time. Heck, there're plenty of instances of them wiping out or evicting the populations of entire worlds because the poor humans were dumb enough to settle on some world that the Eldar seeded / terraformed ten-thousand years ago and never got round to moving in. They've sent billions of humans to their deaths manipulating them to fight their battles for them. An Eldar on the Path of the Artist would probably let a dozen humans die rather than let their sculpture be damaged because they think that the art and symbolism of it is more important than fleeting human lives.

Vicious. Sons. Of. Bitches.

The Eldar instituted their Path system not because they wanted balance, but out of spiritual necessity. It's just their way of dealing with it the same as the DE have their way if dealing with it. CWE may see the DE way as being horrifying, but they're intellectual enough to recognize that it's something that would be all too easy to do themselves and to that it is a valid approach. If you want Eldar as 'elf-y goodness', the closest you're going to get is the Exodites who turned their backs on hedonism and dealt with the problem by self-imposed hardship. And even then, they're not "good guys" so much as having many of the traits that we mentally correlate with 'good guys' (family loyalty, harmony with nature, hard-working).

Basically, there's no inherent feud between DE and CWE. They don't necessarily get on and there are numerous incidents, but they're still both Eldar, they understand each other and can work well together if they choose. That's part of what Battle Brothers means in the rules - not only shared goals but ability to function as a team. An ork horde and a Craftworld could (conceivably) both want to exterminate some humans, but the Autarch trying to explain to a mob of boyz some intricate battle plan, or a mekboy trying to paint a wave serpent red so it goes faster... they just don't mesh effectively. Whereas even if the Autarch and some DE leader don't like each other much, they're going to be throwing ideas and suggestions at each other in a language both speak, using common battle theories and terminology...

Too many people bring in ideas from outside 40k. Especially when it comes to Dark Eldar being 'chaos-y' or CWE being 'good guys'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

squidhills wrote:
Simply put, DE and CWE are desperate allies at absolute best. I don't care how racist Eldar are, that isn't enough to justify the guys who survived the birth of Slaanesh voluntarily teaming up with the guys who CAUSED Slaanesh in the first place

Uh, they BOTH caused the birth of Slaanesh. The only Eldar who can make a decent case that they didn't were the Exodites who got out long before and turned their backs on the rest of Eldar society. The Path system of the CWE was developed AFTER the birth of Slaanesh, just as the DE's torture soul-feeding were. BOTH are responses to Slaanesh. Most of the Craftworlds were also consumed by Slaanesh. Only a handful survived.

knas ser wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Considering that Wych cults are night indistinguishable from Slaanesh cultists?

Most of the non-Muslim world can't even tell the difference between Sunni and Shia and there are some violent extremists in both groups that are extremely similar in attitude and methods. It doesn't mean that they're allies. Common methods does not mean common goals or friendship. DE HATE Chaos. Especially Slaanesh.

DE and CWE are family, basically. They may disagree with how each other live, or fight from time to time, but they are family. The problem is primarily that some people come in with preconceptions, often from Fantasy, sometimes just because they're minds fuse at the word 'Dark', or simply because they have a fanboy idea of what the Eldar are like, saying things like "the Eldar respect life" (a quote from this thread). All of which causes them to imagine there's some inherent feud between the two groups. The CWE are not some 'life-is-sacred' good guys faction. They're vicious sons of bitches half the time. Heck, there're plenty of instances of them wiping out or evicting the populations of entire worlds because the poor humans were dumb enough to settle on some world that the Eldar seeded / terraformed ten-thousand years ago and never got round to moving in. They're sent billions of humans to their deaths manipulating them to fight their battles for them. An Eldar on the Path of the Artist would probably let a dozen humans die rather than let their sculpture be damaged because they think that the art and symbolism of it is mire important than fleeting human lives.

Vicious. Sons. Of. Bitches.

The Eldar instituted their Path system not because they wanted balance, but out of spiritual necessity. It's just their way if dealing with it the same as the DE have their way if dealing with it. CWE may see the DE way as being horrifying, but they're intellectual enough to recognize that it's something that would be all too easy to do themselves and to that it is a valid approach. If you want Eldar as 'elf-y goodness', the closest you're going to get is the Exodites who turned their backs on hedonism and dealt with the problem by self-imposed hardship. And even then, they're not "good guys" so much as having many of the traits that we mentally correlate with 'good guys' (family loyalty, harmony with nature, hard-working).

Basically, there's no inherent feud between DE and CWE. They don't necessarily get on and there are numerous incidents, but they're still both Eldar, they understand each other and can work well together if they choose. That's part of what Battle Brothers means in the rules - not only shard goals but ability to function as a team. An ork horde and a Craftworld could (conceivably) both want to exterminate some humans, but the Autarch trying to explain to a mob of boyz some intricate battle plan, or a mekboy trying to paint a wave serpent red so it goes faster... they just don't mesh effectively. Whereas even if the Autarch and some DE leader don't like each other much, they're going to be throwing ideas and suggestions at each other in a language both speak, using common battle theories and terminology...

Too many people bring in ideas from outside 40k. Especially when it comes to Dark Eldar being 'chaos-y' or CWE being 'good guys'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

squidhills wrote:
Simply put, DE and CWE are desperate allies at absolute best. I don't care how racist Eldar are, that isn't enough to justify the guys who survived the birth of Slaanesh voluntarily teaming up with the guys who CAUSED Slaanesh in the first place

Uh, they BOTH caused the birth of Slaanesh. The only Eldar who can make a decent case that they didn't were the Exodites who got out long before and turned their backs on the rest of Eldsr society. The Path system of the CWE was developed AFTER the birth of Slaanesh, just as the DE's torture soul-feeding were. BOTH are responses to Slaanesh. Most of the Craftworlds were also consumed by Slaanesh. Only a handful survived.

Well said. Pretty much blew the ignorant views out of the water. (when i mean ignorant i dont mean it in a bad way). There isnt too much fluff on the eldar really so most people just assume dark eldar and eldar are enemies. Heck people playing the game longer than i have thought dark eldar where chaos followers... So its important to have posts like this one haha.

I don't buy the "they're family" angle. Like I said before, if you want to use real-life parallels, there are a whole ton of scenarios where degenerate people get ostracized by their families, even to the point where they're basically left to die. Best comparison is, again, drug addicts, gang bangers etc.

You don't get to be an Incubi until you kill an aspect warrior. That's the initiation. Would someone like to explain the "family" dynamic there? Can you seriously imagine Eldar seeing Dark Eldar in distress and thinking "oh look, it's those guys who actively encourage killing us. Well they're family, so let's go help them."

That's like bailing out of jail that brother you have who assaulted your 6-year old daughter. Yeah, no. Family bonds don't go that deep.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't buy the "they're family" angle. Like I said before, if you want to use real-life parallels, there are a whole ton of scenarios where degenerate people get ostracized by their families, even to the point where they're basically left to die. Best comparison is, again, drug addicts, gang bangers etc.

You can draw any analogy you like, you still have to support why it is an appropriate analogy.

The "family" analogy works well because in a galaxy of races that think differently, look different, have different needs, languages, ad infintum, the DE and CWE share many aspects of culture, psychology aesthetics. The point of the family analogy is not that they have to be the best of friends all the time, but that they are naturally close in all fundamental ways. They are even hounded by the same doom (Slaanesh). All of this is supported by the background. Simply saying "it's like drug addicts / gang bangers" is not. Hell, if you actually have a family member with a drug addiction, you'll find that 9/10 times, it's not something that makes the addict and the rest of their family mortal enemies. The bonds of family and lines of communication survive the disagreement even though it causes recurrent tension. Your analogy doesn't show what you think it does. Though again, it needs to actually be supported by the fluff and I don't think it generally is. Aside from all else, the "drug addicts" in your example are actually closer to the early Eldar culture than the CWE. It's the CWE who are the odd break-away if you want to view it like that. But really, you're bringing in your own preconceptions and simply asserting that things are that way in the face of contradiction. When that DE is living in the Alaitoc in Path of the Warrior, the main character's reaction is more 'this is scandalous' than it is 'we've been infiltrated / there's an enemy amongst us'. As much as anything, his shock is that the DE is actually one of the people he most respects in his shrine and that he'd never even considered that he wasn't one of them. Which all goes to show just how close the two groups really are culturally and psychologically. There are (I think) as many instances in the fluff where the DE and the CWE work together as there are where they fight. In fact, I think there are actually more of the former.

I'm going to repeat - you're bringing in your own preconceptions of what you think it "should" be, rather than how it's overall portrayed.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

You don't get to be an Incubi until you kill an aspect warrior. That's the initiation. Would someone like to explain the "family" dynamic there? Can you seriously imagine Eldar seeing Dark Eldar in distress and thinking "oh look, it's those guys who actively encourage killing us. Well they're family, so let's go help them."

Well first off, this brings us back to something I said earlier - that's a single warrior cult within the Dark Eldar. There are billions of DE. Incubi are a tiny fraction of them. That doesn't mean that all CWE and DE are sworn enemies of each other. Hell, the Aspects as portrayed in Path of the Warrior are virtually outcasts within their own society already - they end up sitting alone when eating, people actively avoid them and the wriathbone core of the Craftworld resents their contact (I personally think the author went a bit too far there, but the novel is what it is and is part of the fluff). Eldar are not human. They are their own thing and their warrior cultures are specific subsets of that. Many cases exist of martial factions that exist even in human history where opponents respect each other, even if they have tried to kill each other. The DE and CWE are perfectly capable of interacting and working together and even sharing goals even if parts of their warrior sub-cultures go at each other. Remember that the DE that lives in Alaitoc in Path of the Warrior actually IS an Incubi. That's one of the things that is such an issue with him being there - less that he is a DE (though that is pretty scandalous) and more that he is actually an Incubus.

This is actually your poster-boy example that you're using in your argument - the Incubus, and yet we have a cannon example of one living on Alaitoc (and the Exarchs know he is an Incubus, just to be clear). That pretty strongly shows that the DE and the CWE can get on and that they can work together. Though principally (because I know you're going to try and hone in on this example as if it were my own argument upon which my position depends, rather than me just refuting one you brought up), the case doesn't rest on this one thing at all. The fluff overall lends itself to saying this.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

That's like bailing out of jail that brother you have who assaulted your 6-year old daughter. Yeah, no. Family bonds don't go that deep.

Again, you love your analogy. But the purpose of analogy is to explain something in terms others understand. It's not actually an argument itself. You can't just say: "this is like that and I disagree with that", unless it's clear that "this" actually IS like "that". And I don't think it is and the fluff doesn't support that it is. Two remnant cultures of a fallen one, sharing psychology, aesthetics, culture, history, differentiated primarily by the tactic they use to fend off the enemy that is common to both of them, neither of which being "good guys" is not necessarily like "that brother who assaulted your six year old daughter". So you can't just say that it is and therefore must be wrong.

Again, you've brought in your preconceptions from either WH Fantasy, other fiction where there are good "elves" and bad "elves" or else you've seen the word "Dark" and jumped to a simplistic conclusion that the two groups must be mortal enemies. None of this is well supported. We only have incidences between the DE and the CWE where they have sometimes clashed, and that there is a general separation between the two cultures.

Dark Eldar have enough weaponry and stuff based on shattered Soulstones, Farseer bones and so on for me to doubt that they'd be on particularly friendly terms.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Dark Eldar have enough weaponry and stuff based on shattered Soulstones, Farseer bones and so on for me to doubt that they'd be on particularly friendly terms.

They're not. There's a significant divide between the two peoples. The question is whether they're (a) close enough to work well together - i.e. both in ability and willingness. And (b) whether they're actually enemies that have some inherent need to oppose each other.

I think there's more than enough evidence that where goals coincide they're willing to work together without too much reservation and they certainly have the ability to work well together, sharing similar mindsets, approaches, technological roots, history and culture. Even the most affable Imperial Guard commander in the Imperium is going to struggle working with Eldar when he can't even read their basic body language and thinks very differently tactically to them. Remember, "Battle Brothers" isn't just about how much two groups like each other - it's also about whether they can actually coordinate.

As to (b), I see very little evidence for this and a considerable amount against. These are massive populations. The warriors in both sides are a small minority. DE and CWE are obviously not popping round for tea and crumpets every afternoon. But you don't see them always trying to oppose each other or even thinking that they should. They're both remnants of a fallen race using different approaches to solve the same problem. I think most people's issue stems from this very non-WH40Kish idea that the CWE are in some way "good guys" and therefore must oppose DE, rather than simply having a degree of disagreement with them that can spill over into incidents of violence.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Dark Eldar have enough weaponry and stuff based on shattered Soulstones, Farseer bones and so on for me to doubt that they'd be on particularly friendly terms.

That does not say anything about the DE attitude to the CWE. DE frequently attack other DE as well. For the DE, attacking other Eldar is just normal. An attack by the DE is nothing personal (unless it is against Chaos), it is just part of their way of life. Capturing slaves is even necessary for them to keep their souls from being devoured by Slaanesh. I am sure the CWE can understand that.

In the end the CWE may not like the DE, but they are still Eldar.
The Eldar are extreme supremacists. To the CWE, the DE still are preferable above anything that is not an Eldar.

And as has been mentioned, in the fluff they frequently interact and fight together.

This is really one part of the ally chart I like. Once you realise that to Eldar only other Eldar are really people, it makes perfect sense. I much prefer this over the simplistic good elves and bad elves of the FB.

I thought the Eldar would be rather vengeful over the whole soulstone shattering, turning Eldar captives into Grotesques and similar things that the Dark Eldar like to do?

I mean, that the DE don't see it as a big deal does not mean that the CWE don't.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I thought the Eldar would be rather vengeful over the whole soulstone shattering, turning Eldar captives into Grotesques and similar things that the Dark Eldar like to do?

I mean, that the DE don't see it as a big deal does not mean that the CWE don't.

Well sure they are - hence the division. But what we're discussing here is a matter of degree. Do the CWE and DE loathe and despise each other and are unable to be Battle Brothers, or is it more of a disagree / dislike thing. Keep in mind that there are a number of craftworlds, each effectively its own nation. And there are billions of DE. Sure, there is a small part of the population of the DE that are military types and some of those do things like create Grotesques. But it's not necessarily a cause for war. Grotesques are experimented-upon prisoners The government of Saudi Arabia does horrible things to prisoners too. So does the government of Uzbekistan. But the USA is not at war with either of these countries. Indeed, the government of Saudi Arabia is chiefly in power because of US support. There's a general feeling of disapproval in the US population toward such practices (when they even think of it), but no-one in the USA is grabbing their gun and going to war with them.

Are Grotesques even necessarily Eldar prisoners? I got the impression they could be anyone? But even if Eldar, they're far more likely to be DE prisoners from Commargh than they are captured CWE. And even if they are, it appears to be more of a source of tension and occasional flare-ups, than the two groups being "natural enemies" or anything.

They're not best of friends, certainly. But in the fluff we've seen, they've been perfectly able to interact and consorting with DE seems more scandalous for CWE than out and out terrible. I don't think anyone is arguing they all hold hands and sing songs. Just that they're actually very similar in many ways and aren't inherently opposed to each other. I mean you could just as easily reverse your initial example and say: "but don't Aspect Warriors sometimes kill DE?" Well, yes, they do. But both DE making grotesques and Striking Scorpions carving people up with chainswords are also things they do against any other race as well. There's no inherent war between DE and CWE. They are actually way more likely to work together and ally than with any non-Eldar. It's just differences and occasional incidents and flare-ups.

Keep in mind craftworlds are different craftworlds, they're like nations. CWE are not a monolithic culture that if some DE have a spat over territory or something with Yme-Loc, then Saim-Hann goes ballistic and starts a war with Commarrgh (can never spell that blasted city). Not even if some Incubi over there splits open one of the Yme-Loc Guardian's spirit stones. If they even heard about it, they'd more likely shake their heads at the savagery / misguidedness of their Dark Kin and if the next year a DE force and some Saim-Hann force both found themselves at war with the same Space Marine chapter, it wouldn't stop them meeting and planning some joint raids. Heck, I'd imagine where Saim-Hann are concerned, they'd probably love to compete with some DE raiders!

They can be anyone, indeed, but Eldar are not excluded.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
They can be anyone, indeed, but Eldar are not excluded.

Thanks. That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure.

I like the idea, it makes the Eldar more grim dark and spiky.

I've never equated CWE with "good guys" or DE with being a Chaos faction, and I'm not bringing any WHFB baggage along into this when I say that the two factions should not be battle brothers. I'm not saying that CWE should be battle brothers with the IoM or anything, either. I'm saying that a shared language and shared cultural origins (which is not the same thing as a shared culture at all) is not enough to make CWE work with DE except in cases where the survival of said Craftworld is at stake, and they certainly wouldn't trust each other. Numerous instances of DE basing their tech or weapons or their warrior cults on doing bad things to ELDAR, and you guys think a CWE will trust a DE enough to turn his back on him during a battle? Dark Eldar, the 40K race that personifies the terms "scheming backstabbers" and "untrustworthy plotters"... those guys? An Eldar would trust one of them to not shoot him at an opportune time, steal his soulstone, and run away giggling, just because both of them have pointy ears?

Sorry, not buying it. Cannot, will not, do not buy it.

I'm not saying they should'nt ally at all. I'm saying that, while allied, CWE would not trust the DE to behave in an honorable fashion. CWE would expect some kind of betrayal (even if minor) from the DE, and would behave accordingly.

Battlebrothers represents more than just shared cultural origins and language, it represents trust and faith in the other guy. Trust that he isn't going to "accidentally" shoot you when your back is turned. Trust that he will obey the orders coming from your shared commanders and not deliberately wait to show up to the battle until your unit has been shot out from under you.

That trust simply cannot be there between DE and ANYONE AT ALL. Even other DE can't trust DE to that extent, and you think the CWE, the guys who know their cousins better than anyone in the galaxy, are naive enough to trust them that far?

Sorry, there's no way. Just no way. Desperate allies at best makes the only sense.

squidhills wrote:
I've never equated CWE with "good guys" or DE with being a Chaos faction, and I'm not bringing any WHFB baggage along into this when I say that the two factions should not be battle brothers. I'm not saying that CWE should be battle brothers with the IoM or anything, either. I'm saying that a shared language and shared cultural origins (which is not the same thing as a shared culture at all) is not enough to make CWE work with DE except in cases where the survival of said Craftworld is at stake, and they certainly wouldn't trust each other. Numerous instances of DE basing their tech or weapons or their warrior cults on doing bad things to ELDAR, and you guys think a CWE will trust a DE enough to turn his back on him during a battle? Dark Eldar, the 40K race that personifies the terms "scheming backstabbers" and "untrustworthy plotters"... those guys? An Eldar would trust one of them to not shoot him at an opportune time, steal his soulstone, and run away giggling, just because both of them have pointy ears?

Sorry, not buying it. Cannot, will not, do not buy it.

I'm not saying they should'nt ally at all. I'm saying that, while allied, CWE would not trust the DE to behave in an honorable fashion. CWE would expect some kind of betrayal (even if minor) from the DE, and would behave accordingly.

Battlebrothers represents more than just shared cultural origins and language, it represents trust and faith in the other guy. Trust that he isn't going to "accidentally" shoot you when your back is turned. Trust that he will obey the orders coming from your shared commanders and not deliberately wait to show up to the battle until your unit has been shot out from under you.

That trust simply cannot be there between DE and ANYONE AT ALL. Even other DE can't trust DE to that extent, and you think the CWE, the guys who know their cousins better than anyone in the galaxy, are naive enough to trust them that far?

Sorry, there's no way. Just no way. Desperate allies at best makes the only sense.

Sorry dude, you got it mixed up... ALL ELDAR, every single one of them are known backstabers. They use you then kill you. They use you, say thanks then kill you or they use you, realise they cant win and run away. Only to kill you later. Eldar however view themselves as superior to all other life. they will not waste the life of another eldar easily, all the decisions of all eldar are and only this:

"How can we survive this encounter (an encounter in the future, or one happening now) with the smallest cost to our own possible and come out with a positive to delay our deaths as a people."

All they do is try survive, they are not petty and NO ELDAR would ever tamper with another eldars soul either. Its like the most important thing to them. They as a species are just trying to delay their doom in the hope of a miracle and wasting time killing other eldar to them is just aiding in that doom. All eldar know it and all eldar come together when their species is threatened too dearly.

They may not agree, even craftworlds dont agree with each other but eldar very rarely kill each other. why? Each eldar lost means hundreds of years of predicting and planning to avoid that loss has been wasted. (i think siam hene or whatever does but its not too common).

squidhills wrote:
I've never equated CWE with "good guys" or DE with being a Chaos faction, and I'm not bringing any WHFB baggage along into this when I say that the two factions should not be battle brothers. I'm not saying that CWE should be battle brothers with the IoM or anything, either. I'm saying that a shared language and shared cultural origins (which is not the same thing as a shared culture at all) is not enough to make CWE work with DE except in cases where the survival of said Craftworld is at stake, and they certainly wouldn't trust each other. Numerous instances of DE basing their tech or weapons or their warrior cults on doing bad things to ELDAR, and you guys think a CWE will trust a DE enough to turn his back on him during a battle? Dark Eldar, the 40K race that personifies the terms "scheming backstabbers" and "untrustworthy plotters"... those guys? An Eldar would trust one of them to not shoot him at an opportune time, steal his soulstone, and run away giggling, just because both of them have pointy ears?

Sorry, not buying it. Cannot, will not, do not buy it.

I'm not saying they should'nt ally at all. I'm saying that, while allied, CWE would not trust the DE to behave in an honorable fashion. CWE would expect some kind of betrayal (even if minor) from the DE, and would behave accordingly.

Battlebrothers represents more than just shared cultural origins and language, it represents trust and faith in the other guy. Trust that he isn't going to "accidentally" shoot you when your back is turned. Trust that he will obey the orders coming from your shared commanders and not deliberately wait to show up to the battle until your unit has been shot out from under you.

That trust simply cannot be there between DE and ANYONE AT ALL. Even other DE can't trust DE to that extent, and you think the CWE, the guys who know their cousins better than anyone in the galaxy, are naive enough to trust them that far?

Sorry, there's no way. Just no way. Desperate allies at best makes the only sense.

See you say that you are not bringing in preconcieved notions of good and evil but then you say DE shouldn't be trusted by CWE?

You must not be aware that CWE are the force of the two known for back stabbing, tricky dealings, and in general misstating their goals during their "alliances". CWE are the ones who guide ork hordes onto IoM worlds, "ally" against orks only to remove a leader to a new one could take their place to wage a waagh against their former allies and "help" to fight tyranids so they can blow the planet up to stop the swarm...with the allies on it.

DE on the other hand are commonly mentioned in the fluff as mercs used in many battlefields. You don't get a reputation as a merc and a large number of customers by constantly stabbing your employers in the back. DE don't stab people in the back as long as you pay them more than they could get to do so. In fact the desire for slaves means that after victory spoils will almost always be more than the spoils of a raid due to loading times and logistics.

Your premise could theoretically work but with CWE being the "bad" guys. However the reason they betray the humans/Tau/etc. is they are not people so there was never alliance just use of a beast. DE are people and so you can reason with them.

To answer your question. As long as I had a few thousand slaves to pay the DE with I would trust them with my life. I would also make sure to have insurances so they loose the slaves if they kill me but in terms of trust they are much better than most of the 40K races as they want something and are smart enough to not loose it for no reason. DE do NOT murder and torture just for fun, they do so to keep their souls from slaanesh.

 Swastakowey wrote:


Sorry dude, you got it mixed up... ALL ELDAR, every single one of them are known backstabers. They use you then kill you. They use you, say thanks then kill you or they use you, realise they cant win and run away. Only to kill you later. Eldar however view themselves as superior to all other life.

Actually, the CWE aren't backstabbers. The IoM thinks they are, because humans have a hard time telling CWE, Eldar Corsairs, and DE apart. So when a CW helps a human planet, and a bunch of Corsiars raid local shipping, the Imperium assumes the two are related. The CWE are, in all ways, direct and honest. If they want something from you, they tell you to give it to them. If you do, they don't kill you. Of course, many, many times they don't tell you what they want, and just kill you because: reasons. But to actually backstab you, they have to promise you one thing and then not deliver on it. And they don't do that. At least, not the CWE. Do the CWE allow an Ork Waaagh to destroy a human world to save an Eldar world? Of course, but that isn't betrayal or backstabbing. Unless a formal alliance was in place between the human world and the CWE, which the Eldar ignored when the Orks attacked, then no betrayal or backstabbing happened. And since the Eldar very rarely even make formal alliances, that extra-never happens. They may not tell the IoM why they are helping this time. They may not tell the IoM why they are attacking next time. But they DO NOT tell the IoM that they will help fight those Orks over there and then not show up at all. They just don't. If the CWE make an alliance AT ALL it is because the alliance is vital to the survival of the Craftwrold. Look at how the Eldar fight Choas during the 13th Black Crusade; they don't make an alliance with the IoM. They don't send ambassadors to work out strategy or tactics. They just show up and kill Chaos dudes. They don't talk to the IoM, and generally just run away when the humans take an interest in them. That shows that, as bad as things were, they weren't bad enough for the CWE to make an actual alliance.

But they DID make a formal alliance during the first Tyrranic War. If they had turned around and shot up Ultramar when Calgar wasn't looking, that would be a betrayal... but they didn't. They fought the Tyranids, got what they needed out of it, and left.

Do the Eldar use everyone else for their own gain? Sure. But so does everyone else in the setting. Don't confuse that with "backstabbing" and "betrayal."

The Dark Eldar betray each other and stab each other in the back all of the time in their own culture. Read their fluff. 90% of it is Archons knifing each other in the kidneys during power plays and political maneuvers, sometimes while engaged in fights against other races. Betrayal is in their blood. They are the one faction in the game that is defined by their total and absolute untrustworthiness, even among their own kind.

The CWE aren't saints, and they are out for their own benefit, but they are not anything like the DE, apart from the pointy ears.

 Swastakowey wrote:

squidhills wrote:
I've never equated CWE with "good guys" or DE with being a Chaos faction, and I'm not bringing any WHFB baggage along into this when I say that the two factions should not be battle brothers. I'm not saying that CWE should be battle brothers with the IoM or anything, either. I'm saying that a shared language and shared cultural origins (which is not the same thing as a shared culture at all) is not enough to make CWE work with DE except in cases where the survival of said Craftworld is at stake, and they certainly wouldn't trust each other. Numerous instances of DE basing their tech or weapons or their warrior cults on doing bad things to ELDAR, and you guys think a CWE will trust a DE enough to turn his back on him during a battle? Dark Eldar, the 40K race that personifies the terms "scheming backstabbers" and "untrustworthy plotters"... those guys? An Eldar would trust one of them to not shoot him at an opportune time, steal his soulstone, and run away giggling, just because both of them have pointy ears?

Sorry, not buying it. Cannot, will not, do not buy it.

I'm not saying they should'nt ally at all. I'm saying that, while allied, CWE would not trust the DE to behave in an honorable fashion. CWE would expect some kind of betrayal (even if minor) from the DE, and would behave accordingly.

Battlebrothers represents more than just shared cultural origins and language, it represents trust and faith in the other guy. Trust that he isn't going to "accidentally" shoot you when your back is turned. Trust that he will obey the orders coming from your shared commanders and not deliberately wait to show up to the battle until your unit has been shot out from under you.

That trust simply cannot be there between DE and ANYONE AT ALL. Even other DE can't trust DE to that extent, and you think the CWE, the guys who know their cousins better than anyone in the galaxy, are naive enough to trust them that far?

Sorry, there's no way. Just no way. Desperate allies at best makes the only sense.

Sorry dude, you got it mixed up... ALL ELDAR, every single one of them are known backstabers. They use you then kill you. They use you, say thanks then kill you or they use you, realise they cant win and run away. Only to kill you later. Eldar however view themselves as superior to all other life. they will not waste the life of another eldar easily, all the decisions of all eldar are and only this:

"How can we survive this encounter (an encounter in the future, or one happening now) with the smallest cost to our own possible and come out with a positive to delay our deaths as a people."

All they do is try survive, they are not petty and NO ELDAR would ever tamper with another eldars soul either. Its like the most important thing to them. They as a species are just trying to delay their doom in the hope of a miracle and wasting time killing other eldar to them is just aiding in that doom. All eldar know it and all eldar come together when their species is threatened too dearly.

They may not agree, even craftworlds dont agree with each other but eldar very rarely kill each other. why? Each eldar lost means hundreds of years of predicting and planning to avoid that loss has been wasted. (i think siam hene or whatever does but its not too common).

Yeah - all of the above makes a good point.

@squidhills: CWE do what you describe to humans all the time. And yet humans and Eldar are able to ally (and have often in the fluff) even though they're nowhere near as well integrated in terms of strategy, technology, culture and shared aims as the different factions of Eldar are. Saying that you "cannot, will not" accept this isn't an argument. The fact that we have cannon instances of DE and CWE interacting, even an Incubus in the fluff, that the rules explicitly state they can work well together, and all those other reasons given earlier - these are arguments. You have jumped to a conclusion and it is not backed up.

You say that you never equated CWE with "good guys" and generally deny my suggestion that you've brought in your own preconceptions, but even within your latest post you're all about 'how could the CWE ever trust the DE?' but never once ask the reverse question - how could the DE ever trust the CWE? And the reason you never ask this reverse question is because you are still thinking of the CWE as being good and the DE as being bad. CWE are every bit as sneaky and backstabby and twisty as the DE. Eldar as a race have minds like giant puzzle games filled with sharp edges. Eldar are about the only people who SHOULD trust Eldar because they're the only ones who understand each other.

Think through the logic of what you're saying. By your reasoning - Eldar being tricksy, backstabbity people, they should never ally with each other. No craftworlds should ever join forces to accomplish something or defend themselves. But I'm sure you accept that they do and in fact do so pretty effectively. So why not a bunch of CWE and a bunch of DE? The only reason you see the former as reasonable and the latter as not is because of three flawed assumptions:

1) DE are treacherous and CWE are not.
This is not the case - all Eldar are more tricksy than a bag of snakes.
2) CWE and DE have incompatible goals
This is not the case. Both are trying to survive and preserve the Eldar race. They simply have different methods.
3) CWE must be utterly repulsed by things that the DE do such as Grotesques or the way an Incubus must kill an Aspect Warrior as a right of passage.
This is refuted by cannon fluff and as I've pointed out at length, there are numerous real world examples of factions allying with groups they find distasteful and overlooking what a small number in a group do. Incubi are a tiny fraction of the DE society akin to how the SAS are one small faction of the population of the United Kingdom. Sure - someone in Libya who was targeted by them a few years ago might resent the British as a whole because of it, but in the general case people of one nation are just going to be as normal with other people of the nation. Not to mention that as I pointed out earlier, relations with one craftworld don't mean the same relations with every other craftworld, any more than a person in Egypt is going to be angry at the British because an SAS soldier shot a soldier in Libya.

You're taking your preconceived ideas and running with them in contradiction to rules and fluff as well as common sense. I mean one of the rebels in Syria last year ATE one of Assad's soldiers. Do I, as a non-Syrian, suddenly want to march to war on them? Would I react with horror to anyone I meet from Syria? No. Because in the grand scheme of things, we are peoples, not military regiments addicted to some vast honour system. It's called Real Politik. And if anyone is good at politics, it ought to be the Eldar. Of any faction.

Remember also the craft worlders HATE using wraiths and so on, so they know they are just as guilty as dark eldar in terms of dealing with the dead and keeping alive.

squidhills wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:


Sorry dude, you got it mixed up... ALL ELDAR, every single one of them are known backstabers. They use you then kill you. They use you, say thanks then kill you or they use you, realise they cant win and run away. Only to kill you later. Eldar however view themselves as superior to all other life.

Actually, the CWE aren't backstabbers. The IoM thinks they are, because humans have a hard time telling CWE, Eldar Corsairs, and DE apart. So when a CW helps a human planet, and a bunch of Corsiars raid local shipping, the Imperium assumes the two are related. The CWE are, in all ways, direct and honest.

Wow. Just "Wow!".

Not backstabbers? In all ways direct and honest?

You really have brought your own pre-conceptions into this. Big time!

This is EXACTLY what I said. You got this idea into your head that Eldar = Good Guys, whether from elves in other settings or what, saw "Dark" elder and assumed Bad Guys. And you just ran with it in defiance of fluff.

I gave examples earlier. I can dig up more. But just for starters, CWE have killed or evicted (to later die) the entire population of worlds simply because ten millienia ago the Eldar seeded that world with life and regard it as theirs. I mean its not as if the Eldar have a desperate over-population problem, is it? But they have still gone ahead and done this on numerous occasions. They have betrayed humans over and over again. And for your information, Eldar "Corsairs" are not some fourth faction of Eldar. They're very often made up OF craftworld Eldar. Corsairs are just pirates. They can just as easily hail from a craftworld and in fact most do. A bunch of CWE will set off in a ship for a few hundred years, going a-pirating around the galaxy and then return home and pick up a new stage of the Eldar path. And I'd say it's more than possible you get the odd DE in there with them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Remember also the craft worlders HATE using wraiths and so on, so they know they are just as guilty as dark eldar in terms of dealing with the dead and keeping alive.

Yep - it is literal necromancy to them.