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 BlaxicanX wrote:
Considering the Eldar actually respect life (despite their willingness to exterminate anything they consider a threat), I imagine that they are entirely disgusted by the Dark Eldar and consider them a testament to why the Fall happened in the first place. They are, literally, the very worst aspects of the Eldar made manifest.

So it's likely that Dark Eldar are scum in Eldar eyes. Dark Eldar aren't just cousins to the Eldar. They're the equivalent of that cousin who gets addicted to heroine, becomes a homeless bum and steals things from you and your family members everytime you show some pity and let him stay with you for awhile.

The Eldars are indeed enigmatic sods... and their obsessions with fate and alternate philosophies are... troubling, to say the least. Irregardless whether the common Eldar populace view their webway dwelling kins as savages, the Dark Eldars are always their kins, and in certain philosophical debates may even be admired for their unbounded freedom.

"The scions of the Dark City would never admit that the unceasing hunger ... is what drives them to such heights of cruelty... In truth, unless our cousins in the webway feed upon a constant diet of extreme emotion they will slowly wither away, leaving naught but a soulless husk. We of the craftworld deny all such urges, and in doing so become less than ourselves. Perhaps it is those that we left to perish who are the lucky ones."
-- Spiritseer Iyanna Arienal, Meditations
(Johnson, Jervis, and Gavin Thorpe. "Ancient History." Codex: Dark Eldar. 5th ed. Lenton: Games Workshop, 1998. 7. Print.)

If the Angel of Iyanden can express such thoughts, how sure can we say the minds of the Craftworld Eldars are like?

knas ser wrote:


Wow. Just "Wow!".

Not backstabbers? In all ways direct and honest?

You really have brought your own pre-conceptions into this. Big time!

This is EXACTLY what I said. You got this idea into your head that Eldar = Good Guys, whether from elves in other settings or what, saw "Dark" elder and assumed Bad Guys. And you just ran with it in defiance of fluff.

I gave examples earlier. I can dig up more. But just for starters, CWE have killed or evicted (to later die) the entire population of worlds simply because ten millienia ago the Eldar seeded that world with life and regard it as theirs. I mean its not as if the Eldar have a desperate over-population problem, is it? But they have still gone ahead and done this on numerous occasions. They have betrayed humans over and over again. And for your information, Eldar "Corsairs" are not some fourth faction of Eldar. They're very often made up OF craftworld Eldar. Corsairs are just pirates. They can just as easily hail from a craftworld and in fact most do. A bunch of CWE will set off in a ship for a few hundred years, going a-pirating around the galaxy and then return home and pick up a new stage of the Eldar path. And I'd say it's more than possible you get the odd DE in there with them.

Oh, the Eldar wiped out a human colony? Oh, yup that's definately a huge betrayal. Just like when the IoM betrayed the Tyranids by wiping out Hive Fleet Behemoth. Or when the Orks betrayed the IoM by attacking Armageddon.

Or wait... those aren't betrayals AT ALL. That is one side attacking the other side, which is what you do in war. BETRAYAL requires you to claim to work with the other guy, then abandon him or turn on him during a fight. And I have not seen (and nobody has cited) incidents of that happening.

I never said the CWE don't attack the IoM. I never said they don't attack defenseless colonies. I said they don't betray those they form alliances with. All anyone has presented to counter that is the fact that the Eldar attack human planets, frequently without warning. Yeah, so what? That isn't a betrayal. The Eldar regard humans as lesser beings. So? That's not backstabbing. The Eldar will direct an Ork Waaagh onto a human world to save themselves. Whoopty-fething-do. That isn't a betrayal or backstabbing (unless there was an alliance already existing between those particular Eldar and the IoM). "Enemy" does not automatically mean "betrayer" or "backstabber", it just means "enemy". The CWE are frequently enemies of the IoM, and they try to kill each other a lot. That is indisputable. They are still infinately more trustworthy than DE.

And the instances of DE and Eldar working together seem to stem from a few instances in the DE codex where the DE show up and save a Craftworld from destruction, just because the Archon wants to laugh at his cousins for needing his help. How many times in the Eldar (or DE) codex does it talk about CWE voluntarily coming to the aid of DE? As in, the DE are on the defensive and the CWE show up to save the day? Because I haven't heard of any times like that. Maybe it's because nobody has pointed them out, but I really don't remember anything like that happening at all. To my knowledge, the only times we've seen a CWE/DE "alliance" it has been the CWE on the defensive, with the DE showing up (on their own, with no request from the CWE) to save the day. That sort of thing doesn't refute my assertion that CWE can't trust DE in an alliance, because, from what we know of those battles, a formal alliance wasn't declared; it was just DE showing up and showing off.

And Corsiars, while CWE in origin, are a bunch of guys who go out in space ships and do their own thing, without taking direct orders from the rest of the Craft world. I know that "Corsiars" aren't a separate race of Eldar, but they behave as though they are a separate group. They may be CWE in origin, but they aren't a part of the CW government or beholden to whatever alliances it is maintaining. Corsairs do their own thing. Culturally, they are CWE, but the IoM doesn't notice the distinction. THAT is my point about Corsairs. The CWE set up an alliance, and some Corsairs do some piracy, and the CWE get blamed because the IoM doesn't see the distinction between the two, because they both have pointed ears. Yes, the Eldar regard Corsairs as CWE, but the IoM don't bother to care; they shoot at anyone with pointed ears the same way.

Thats too big to quote. You are right, the imperium treates all eldar equally. No real difference is made. BUT (and i think its in all codices eldar) its does blatantly say that eldar frequently kill their temporary allies once they are finished... unless they cant win that fight or they might loose too much.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Thats too big to quote. You are right, the imperium treates all eldar equally. No real difference is made. BUT (and i think its in all codices eldar) its does blatantly say that eldar frequently kill their temporary allies once they are finished... unless they cant win that fight or they might loose too much.

If you can give me some citations to back up your claim, you might find me changing my opinion. But so far, all anyone has given me is that the CWE attack the Imperium, therefore they are untrustworthy.

I don't think it's so much that eldar attack their allies, but it's more that they use people (like orks, IOM, ect.) to get what they want. They also do whatever is needed to protect themselves even if it means billion of other people die. They created the war on Apocalypse by making it so Grazgkul rose to power because if another ork became warboss the orks would have attacked eldar craftworlds.

squidhills wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Thats too big to quote. You are right, the imperium treates all eldar equally. No real difference is made. BUT (and i think its in all codices eldar) its does blatantly say that eldar frequently kill their temporary allies once they are finished... unless they cant win that fight or they might loose too much.

If you can give me some citations to back up your claim, you might find me changing my opinion. But so far, all anyone has given me is that the CWE attack the Imperium, therefore they are untrustworthy.

Sweet as, give me four hours to get home from work and ill give you a quote. I havent read my 6th edition codex yet (probably never will) but its in the 5th edition one for 100% certainty.

Actually the idea that the IoM is ignorant of xenos is hugely mistaken. The inquisition are actually well aware of factions of eldar and track cabals and craftworld's actions having reports of craftworld movements and cabal actions which list specific names.

Stating that the IoM doesn't know one eldar group from another is plain wrong.

The problem is that there is not actually any difference between corsair and craftworld eldar. Corsair is a path that some of the craftworlds go off on and doesn't allow you to live in the craftworld proper. The eldar on this path often get back onto a more normal path later. Some of them even show variations of their craftworld's symbolism.

In some ways the CWE normally cannot betray anyone but themselves (which other than Yriel's disobeying orders is not talked about in fluff) as they basically never actually make alliance with anything not eldar.

It would however feel much like betrayal when the eldar who live in the region (usually semi peacefully) suddenly disrupt your defenses and lead in an ork whaagh, or lure a chaos fleet into a war with you. Then there are the times the CWE turn around and invade a palace to kill a random person when the last time you had contact they showed up to fight against a common enemy.


This battle brothers alliance level does not seem to indicate that the entire group trusts the entire group of the other force. It indicates that the two groups can communicate with each other and interface their abilities to benefit each other. The reasons for having the alliance in the first place is often left up to the massive variety of the universe.

For an example not all the corsair groups are CWE. There are also DE ones who for one reason or another operate outside Commorragh. It is just as likely that these groups would work in conjunction with the CWE as they would with DE. Alternatively many of the corsair CWE groups are shown to have heavy trade relations with Commorragh and the DE. The allies rules obviously is the best way to represent these groups.

@squidhills
The eldar will sacrifice a human planet for a single eldar life. Notice that when the books say these sort of quotes it is not a craftworlder life and in fact shows examples of protecting exodites (the only group easy to attack) from threats by using the IoM as a shield. This would therefore indicate that they would do so even for DE unless otherwise amended.

You are the dissenting opinion which says that CWE and DE should not be able to ally with any degree of cooperation or trust (desperate allies). This is despite example of DE and CWE working in close concert during a craftworld side battle, examples of criminals being handed over by CWE to DE for punishment, cultural mobility where DE incubi become CWE, quotes showing that eldar will support eldar above any other species at the cost of billion of other species' lives, and corsairs using tech from both sides which indicates a joined trade flow.

The burden of proof is clearly on you to provide proof that DE betray CWE and CWE cannot trust DE. Incubi killing a few CWE and their use of soul stones counts for little when CWE immolate their own alive to create avatars of khaine and use the soulstones of the dead in creation of necromatic constructs they themselves see as a perversion.

I trust being the determining factor of whether two models could join each other's units then commissars could not be allies with imperial guard catachans (kill each other to make a point)...and space marine apothecaries should not be able to be allies with space marines(extract gene seed to create more SM)? Worse the entire CSM codex could not have a single unit within it if trust was the only factor in alliances and being able to join units.

To be fair i have also read that much of the imperium regard all eldar as little more than pirates. But i also remember that paragraph also stating that this is due to the fact there are not many survivors of contact with eldar that arent pirates... Hinting they usually die when they come accross craft world eldar. yet again i have no idea where i read that though.

It's also notable that for as long as I can remember, one of the Harlequins' goals was to unite the craftworld and dark eldar without necessarily changing their lifestyles. They wouldn't be going for that if it was impossible for the two to work together.

Eldar and Dark Eldar models could already be put together in the Eldar Corsairs forgeworld army list long before sixth edition, too.

Ok i cant find it after a glance in the 6th but ill keep at it and post it when i find it.

 Jimsolo wrote:
The take-away I always got was that they did hate one another, but at the end of the day they'd work together without question or reservation against any filthy non-eldar. They're space elves, which means that if they're anything above all else, it's racist.

They're like Germans and Italians, right?

Germany would never Side with Italy. Unless it was against France and Britain.

The Enemy of my Enemy is my friend for as long as I have that enemy.

They put the Brother in BattleBrother.

As in: They're cool with beating up on each other, but if a 3rd party thinks they can get in on some of that the two brothers will gang up.

You've already had so many good replies. I'll only add the little I have that I think I can actually add:

squidhills wrote:

knas ser wrote:


Wow. Just "Wow!".

Not backstabbers? In all ways direct and honest?

You really have brought your own pre-conceptions into this. Big time!

This is EXACTLY what I said. You got this idea into your head that Eldar = Good Guys, whether from elves in other settings or what, saw "Dark" elder and assumed Bad Guys. And you just ran with it in defiance of fluff.

I gave examples earlier. I can dig up more. But just for starters, CWE have killed or evicted (to later die) the entire population of worlds simply because ten millienia ago the Eldar seeded that world with life and regard it as theirs. I mean its not as if the Eldar have a desperate over-population problem, is it? But they have still gone ahead and done this on numerous occasions. They have betrayed humans over and over again. And for your information, Eldar "Corsairs" are not some fourth faction of Eldar. They're very often made up OF craftworld Eldar. Corsairs are just pirates. They can just as easily hail from a craftworld and in fact most do. A bunch of CWE will set off in a ship for a few hundred years, going a-pirating around the galaxy and then return home and pick up a new stage of the Eldar path. And I'd say it's more than possible you get the odd DE in there with them.

Oh, the Eldar wiped out a human colony? Oh, yup that's definately a huge betrayal. Just like when the IoM betrayed the Tyranids by wiping out Hive Fleet Behemoth. Or when the Orks betrayed the IoM by attacking Armageddon.

Or wait... those aren't betrayals AT ALL. That is one side attacking the other side, which is what you do in war. BETRAYAL requires you to claim to work with the other guy, then abandon him or turn on him during a fight. And I have not seen (and nobody has cited) incidents of that happening.

So reading your post logically, you are positing that CWE are a faction (well known for their twisty thinking and political maneuvering) that are willing to kill the entire population of a planet that is non-hostile to them, but that they will not lie to members of that species. Let me highlight the implications of what you wrote again: you concede the Eldar might actively cause the deaths of billions of people who pose no threat or harm to them, but that they would draw the line at lying.

Whilst I concede that such a culture could exist, there's a substantial burden of proof on you to show this.

You have also tried to make the argument hinge on your own narrow definition of betrayal:

squidhills wrote:

I never said the CWE don't attack the IoM. I never said they don't attack defenseless colonies. I said they don't betray those they form alliances with. All anyone has presented to counter that is the fact that the Eldar attack human planets, frequently without warning. Yeah, so what? That isn't a betrayal. The Eldar regard humans as lesser beings. So? That's not backstabbing. The Eldar will direct an Ork Waaagh onto a human world to save themselves. Whoopty-fething-do. That isn't a betrayal or backstabbing (unless there was an alliance already existing between those particular Eldar and the IoM). "Enemy" does not automatically mean "betrayer" or "backstabber", it just means "enemy". The CWE are frequently enemies of the IoM, and they try to kill each other a lot. That is indisputable. They are still infinately more trustworthy than DE.

They started one of the IoM's most famous and epic wars (Armageddon) in order to focus the orks on humanity rather than a Craftworld. Sure - that's not an instance of an Eldar breaking a promise, but that doesn't take away from it showing the CWE as manipulative, callous toward others, self-interested and it in no way shows that they are so pathologically honest that they will never betray anyone for their own benefit.

Despite all the counter-evidence people are bringing to you, you are still attempting to show the CWE as somehow morally better guys than the DE, more trustworthy, honourable, etc. That's not accurate. They might be a little better morally in that their means of survival don't involve direct infliction of pain on others, but that's almost as much a side-effect of their chosen method as it is a moral choice.

This analogy I'm about to give downplays the degree of fracture between the two groups, because they really do have issues with each other, but those issues are not crippling, it's more like this:

CWE = Vegetarians
DE = Meat eaters.

Some time in the distant past, the Eldar were nearly wiped out by a severe case of E.coli poisoning. A large faction of them swore off meat forever and another group discovered a way of preparing the meat that minimized the risk. The vegetarians may get a little queasy at the meat-eaters' butchery. The non-vegetarians may regard the vegetarians as milk-sops. And sometimes they clash and argue and even rarely cross over factions. But they both are essentially the same and whilst from the point of view of the cattle the meat-eaters are a bit scarier the cattle's feelings aren't really a factor in relations between the two groups.

squidhills wrote:

knas ser wrote:

And the instances of DE and Eldar working together seem to stem from a few instances in the DE codex where the DE show up and save a Craftworld from destruction, just because the Archon wants to laugh at his cousins for needing his help. How many times in the Eldar (or DE) codex does it talk about CWE voluntarily coming to the aid of DE? As in, the DE are on the defensive and the CWE show up to save the day? Because I haven't heard of any times like that. Maybe it's because nobody has pointed them out, but I really don't remember anything like that happening at all. To my knowledge, the only times we've seen a CWE/DE "alliance" it has been the CWE on the defensive, with the DE showing up (on their own, with no request from the CWE) to save the day. That sort of thing doesn't refute my assertion that CWE can't trust DE in an alliance, because, from what we know of those battles, a formal alliance wasn't declared; it was just DE showing up and showing off.

It doesn't "stem from a few instances in the DE codex". There are novels and fluff elsewhere and just reasoned argument from known facts which there has been a lot of in this thread. And yet you're ignoring it in favour of what you already think.

You're also setting up extreme examples such as demanding examples of where the CWE have "voluntarily" come to the aid of DE. Firstly you are deliberately excluding any instance of self-interest with your instance on "voluntary", a caveat that is not at all required for Battle Brothers. Secondly, is coming to their aid a requirement we have to prove anyway? They don't like each other on the whole. And the DE can generally look after themselves after all, so it's hardly necessary. Demanding examples of CWE rushing to save DE is not a requirement to show that DE and CWE can be battle brothers. We've cited enough fluff background and given enough good reasons to show that. Extraordinary examples of brotherly love (i.e. risking your lives in battle for them) is not required.

squidhills wrote:

knas ser wrote:

And Corsiars, while CWE in origin, are a bunch of guys who go out in space ships and do their own thing, without taking direct orders from the rest of the Craft world. I know that "Corsiars" aren't a separate race of Eldar, but they behave as though they are a separate group. They may be CWE in origin, but they aren't a part of the CW government or beholden to whatever alliances it is maintaining. Corsairs do their own thing. Culturally, they are CWE, but the IoM doesn't notice the distinction. THAT is my point about Corsairs. The CWE set up an alliance, and some Corsairs do some piracy, and the CWE get blamed because the IoM doesn't see the distinction between the two, because they both have pointed ears. Yes, the Eldar regard Corsairs as CWE, but the IoM don't bother to care; they shoot at anyone with pointed ears the same way.

There is much wrong here, not least the idea that whether the IoM can tell the difference between them is relevant to feelings between DE and CWE. (And just to be clear, some of the IoM does know the difference - some Inquisitors have even been granted access to the Black Library itself by the Harlequins).

But anyway, there is not a good distinction between Corsairs and CWE. You admit they are often culturally CWE and yet insist that CWE must behave differently to Corsairs. You admit that Corsairs are made up often by CWE and that at the same time they often include DE and that perforce they must be socially interacting, working together, and yet insist that their parent cultures must despise each other. You do not seem to realize that Corsairs are not outcasts from their parent cultures normally. They ARE regular Eldar who decide to go off a-pirating. And then they return without any big problems.

Eldar Corsairs are no more distinct from CWE than a back-packing student on a gap year is distinct from their home nation. It undoubtedly raises some eyebrows and no doubt Eldar backhome get a little shocked at what they get up to. But that's it and the fact that they can associate with DE voluntarily, shows it's more than possible for them to do so when there's some outside necessity or pragmatic reason to do so.

Also, your hints of Eldar government don't really jibe with the fluff either. The novels suggest Eldar society is not very governmentally controlled. They're a post-scarcity society. The strong impression I have is that CWE lead an idyllic life are pursuing their paths without much restriction. I don't see much about them obeying laws or paying taxes. There's the occasional call to War (which affects mainly the Aspects and in extreme circumstances Guardians), there are Farseers who seem to have the role of respected elders and guides that most would follow the guidance of. Some Craftworld have their own way of doing things - e.g. Saim Hann is quite clan-orientated. But generally your talk of Corsairs "not being beholden to the government" just doesn't really jibe. These aren't High Elves or something. And DE aren't Dark Elves.

Again, you have brought your own preconceptions to this. They're not standing up to what is actually shown. Please stop trying to prove the incorrect and accept that you have the wrong idea about it. The Fluff and the rules (the latter being more relevance imo) both throw up numerous counter-examples to what you think and there's very little in favour of showing you to be correct. Assertions that the CWE would never betray anyone are dubious in the extreme. Even were it true (which seems unlikely that they'd kill billions for no good reason but never dream of telling a lie), it would not be an argument why they could not ally with DE.

The two groups do not get on, on the whole. That doesn't mean they can't be effective Battle Brothers. Nations ally with each other all the time without necessarily condoning each other.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
The take-away I always got was that they did hate one another, but at the end of the day they'd work together without question or reservation against any filthy non-eldar. They're space elves, which means that if they're anything above all else, it's racist.

They're like Germans and Italians, right?

Germany would never Side with Italy. Unless it was against France and Britain.

The Enemy of my Enemy is my friend for as long as I have that enemy.

Yeah - what he said. With the additional qualifier that the difference between the Germans and Italians in this case is MUCH less than the difference between both of them and the other nations, who don't share a common history, technology, speak each others' languages and have the same ultimate goals (survival of their race) and can even apply for citizenship in the other nation.

Armaggedon would have happened no matter what the Eldar did, they just chose WHERE it happened. Again, you are taking a heavy IoM point of view side of it without looking at the big picture. If the Eldar DIDN'T divert that force, they would have run over the Eldar AND multiple lesser defended Imperial areas.

Big picture, Eldar see it...you do not.

And if you think heavy self-interest in their own race and willing to sacrifice billions of another race to save theirs from harm is a strictly Eldar trait and not also usable to just about every other faction in 40k, you clearly don't know the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Despite all the counter-evidence people are bringing to you, you are still attempting to show the CWE as somehow morally better guys than the DE, more trustworthy, honourable, etc. That's not accurate. They might be a little better morally in that their means of survival don't involve direct infliction of pain on others, but that's almost as much a side-effect of their chosen method as it is a moral choice. "

This comment alone proves you know nothing of the setting....just saying...

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Armaggedon would have happened no matter what the Eldar did, they just chose WHERE it happened. Again, you are taking a heavy IoM point of view side of it without looking at the big picture. If the Eldar DIDN'T divert that force, they would have run over the Eldar AND multiple lesser defended Imperial areas.

Not sure what you're trying to show other than that I'm correct in saying that the Eldar diverted a massive ork force onto the humans to protect themselves. It's really irrelevant to whether the CWE and DE can work together except insofar as a few people think DE and CWE can't ally because CWE are Good Guys and DE are Bad Guys, and this is an example (of numerous) which shows the CWE are not in fact Good Guys. Thus people thinking the CWE can't ally with DE for moral reasons are wrong.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Big picture, Eldar see it...you do not.

Well Farseer Faenyin (), show me where what you just wrote contradicts anything I said. The only thing you added there that I did not, was that if the Eldar hadn't re-directed it, that "multiple lesser defended Imperial areas" would have also suffered, which is your attempt to show that things would have been worse for the humans as well if they hadn't. As far as I am aware, that's entirely your own invention. Citation? Or is it just something you think is "obvious". Because I think arguing that unleashing Armageddon on the humans rather than Craftworlds was even slightly okay for humans, is madness. You're just trying to spin things with no backing from the fluff or common sense that I'm aware of. Any counterargument to this requires a citation - the rest is just invention.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

And if you think heavy self-interest in their own race and willing to sacrifice billions of another race to save theirs from harm is a strictly Eldar trait and not also usable to just about every other faction in 40k, you clearly don't know the fluff.

Where on Terra do you think I argued that it was a strictly Eldar trait? What kind of epic strawman is that? Eldar just happen to be best at it, that's all. Again, this has no relevance whatsoever to whether DE and CWE can work together. It's only there as a disproof of the absurd idea that DE and CWE must be opposed because they are Bad Guys and Good Guys respectively. As you agree that the CWE Eldar are not Good Guys (and could not do anything but agree given the fluff), then that whole line of argument is dead. And to top it off, you're being very selective in your fluff with your "to save theirs from harm". The Eldar have killed billions just because they seeded a planet with life ten millennia ago and think humans had no right to settle there. As I already pointed out, it's not as if the Eldar are suffering from terrible population pressure. So quit it with the attempts to enoble the CWE with their "to save themselves from harm".

The only reason this keeps coming up is because the reason some people think DE and CWE can't work together is because the latter are somehow too moral to work with the former. Hence the need for you to prove that they are because that's where your assumptions are stemming from. But they're not so this entire line of discussion says nothing about how well DE and CWE can work together. It's a dead argument.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Despite all the counter-evidence people are bringing to you, you are still attempting to show the CWE as somehow morally better guys than the DE, more trustworthy, honourable, etc. That's not accurate. They might be a little better morally in that their means of survival don't involve direct infliction of pain on others, but that's almost as much a side-effect of their chosen method as it is a moral choice. "

This comment alone proves you know nothing of the setting....just saying...

It "proves" I know nothing of the setting? I've demonstrated plenty of knowledge of the setting and in fact I started playing with 1st edition, have read pretty much all the early books, several of the modern books since returning including some of the critical novels on Eldar. Put your money where your mouth is - show me exactly how my statement above proves my lack of knowledge of the setting.

Eldar fans who want CWE to be honourable and great and think DE are their evil opposites. That's the ignorance of the actual setting.

While I do agree with your fundamanetal dislike of idea that CWE and DE will not ally together because of moral reasons is correct, the rest of your stuff is abstract to the fact that my 'leaps of logic' make yours look like a totally seperate universe. You have cited zero citation, but when I back it up with simple things like:

It is better for a Ork Waagh to hit a well defended world than run rampant over other areas before it can be caught and contained.

...you think I'm reaching? Perhaps if you are one of the humans on that world, but what about all the other lives saved? Are the Eldar evil to the worlds saved or saviours? Perspective.

I'm at least backing it up with logic instead of the comments like 'CWE are not more trustworthy or honorable than DE', which is not supported simply by the fluff in general of the two races, in fact the fluff on EVERY occassion supports the opposite. Have DE sacrificed themselves to help destroy the Blackstone Fortresses, or done anything near as helpful to humanity? Dark Eldar tried to stop the Heresy? Oh wait no... Self preservation for the Eldar on those too I supposed you'll argue as a weak attempt at deflection... But that still makes them more honorable and trustworthy than their Dark kin.

No...you clearly don't know the general fluff if you make such comments.

Put YOUR money where your mouth is and show me where in the fluff it shows that CWE are as untrustworthy or dishonorable as the DE. Perhaps first researching the basic definitions of those two words would help, I think that must be where your disconnect is....as it is pretty clear that CWE show more morality on both of those items in question.

And the Eldar are 'good guys' in the setting. In the scope of the grimdark universe, I'd say the Eldar are certainly one of the 'good guys' compared to the evils out there. As is the IoM, as are the Tau....BUT they are all self-serving...so don't use that as an arguement on how the CWE are untrustworthy in the setting...that IS the very definition of strawman.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
While I do agree with your fundamanetal dislike of idea that CWE and DE will not ally together because of moral reasons is correct, the rest of your stuff is abstract to the fact that my 'leaps of logic' make yours look like a totally seperate universe. You have cited zero citation, but when I back it up with simple things like:

You might want to take a second stab at that first sentence. As to your charge that I've backed things up with "zero citation" that's not at all correct. For example the Incubus who is living in the Craftworld with other CWE knowing what he is, comes from the novel Path of the Warrior which I explicitly mentioned earlier. Others are easily backed up with a cursory search such as how the populations of entire worlds have been killed for no other reason than they don't have permission to live on a world the Eldar terraformed. Citation for you -

"The seeded worlds survived the Fall of the Eldar, and continued to develop on their own. In the Age of the Imperium these worlds are now verdant paradise worlds. Inevitably, many have been settled by non-Eldar races. Although these races may have lived on Maiden Worlds for thousands of years, the descendants of the colonists are considered invaders by Eldar. After the Fall, the Eldar began to settle the verdant worlds they created, sometimes finding their worlds already inhabited by other races. The "invaders" are given the choice of leaving or being exterminated. Even in cases where the colonists are feral savages with no means of leaving the planet, the Eldar have mercilessly followed through with the threat of extermination"
--http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Maiden_Worlds#fn_2

I remember reading most of this stuff when it came out in WD126 or 7 (I forget which it was - had a green dragon on the front).

Seriously, don't just make an attack on me saying I've made "zero citation". Instead, if there's anything I've said as occurring in the fluff that you don't think actually occurs in the fluff, ask. Don't just make silly sweeping accusations saying I've never backed anything up. Now in contrast, I demanded a citation from you for a specific reason, not as a cheap general attack - you said something that I had never seen anywhere in the fluff and I accused you of it just being your own invention and that if challenged you would just think that it was so but be unable to provide
evidence. And so we find it because here is what you provide as a citation:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
It is better for a Ork Waagh to hit a well defended world than run rampant over other areas before it can be caught and contained.

As I wrote - no citation, just you trying to spin something as Eldar serving some Greater Good without any evidence. Armageddon was a world in a system of multiple worlds and a hive world to boot. Meaning a population measured in the tens of billions. There's no statement anywhere that it was better for the humans that these worlds were devastated by decades of war than if the orks had crashed against a Craftworld. No where. And you accuse me of "zero citation". Such hypocrisy!

And it's ridiculous to cling to this discussion that has no relevancy. You even open your post with (as far as I can parse the sentence) with a concession that the argument CWE and DE can't work well together because of different moral standards is fallacious. And then instantly return to the subject of the Eldar sacrificing whole worlds of humans to save their craftworld (with surely a far smaller population) and again try to spin it in absence of anything published to that effect as being a Greater Good style deal. (And of course conveniently skipping over things like exterminating people without a need to in favour of the one thing where you believe that you can construct a rationale that makes the Eldar sound not as bad).

You're inventing this. Just like Squidhill's notion that although the Eldar might kill billions of humans to save a few Eldar lives, they'd draw the line at ever actually lying to them.

Again, as you've already been forced to admit the moral argument against CWE working with DE is flawed, just stop making things up to try and justify it. I have good reason to demand citations of you. I've been backing up my argument all along and been happy to do so.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
...you think I'm reaching? Perhaps if you are one of the humans on that world, but what about all the other lives saved? Are the Eldar evil to the worlds saved or saviours? Perspective.

Whatever it is you think you're arguing against, in the above case it's not me, .There's no relevancy here to whether DE and CWE can work well together. You're just becoming Captain Tangent because this is relevant to your reasons for arguing this (you want CWE to be Good Guys), but has no relevancy to an argument (whether some lives are saved by a CWE or not doesn't in the slightest affect that CWE and DE have a shared culture, technology, way of thinking and the same ultimate goals).

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

I'm at least backing it up with logic instead of the comments like 'CWE are not more trustworthy or honorable than DE', which is not supported simply by the fluff in general of the two races, in fact the fluff on EVERY occassion supports the opposite.

Wow. If you are familiar with EVERY occasion (capitalization yours) of fluff, then why are you asking me for the citations. I've read a Hell of a lot of it and I'm pretty darn certain that I wouldn't claim to know what every bit of fluff says on the subject. And I've been into Eldar since we first saw the new designs for Dire Avengers back in WD one-hundred and twenty-something. Now two things - one, you're not backing it up with logic, you're backing it up with supposition. Big difference. Saying there was less harm done by the orks attacking the Hive World Armageddon (and its teeming billions) along with the several other worlds in that system, rather than threatening a craftworld is supposition. And more especially supposition created post-fact to support your argument. A remarkably different thing than "backing it up with logic". Secondly, I have been backing up my references to fluff as demonstrated earlier and you have cut out part of a sentence shifting the emphasis to something much more extreme. Here is the full thing that I wrote without your excisions:

Despite all the counter-evidence people are bringing to you, you are still attempting to show the CWE as somehow morally better guys than the DE, more trustworthy, honourable, etc. That's not accurate. They might be a little better morally in that their means of survival don't involve direct infliction of pain on others, but that's almost as much a side-effect of their chosen method as it is a moral choice.

The context I wrote was at Squidhills who was arguing that CWE would never ever betray anyone. I said that CWE might be a little better morally but that the ridiculous idea that they were honourable, trustworthy and morally better guys? That was false. And there's plenty to support that. I've been giving it all along. When was the last time the DE caused a war that consumed whole systems for decades? When was the last time they evicted the entire population of a planet? And it wouldn't matter if they did because the sole relevant part is not whether CWE are a little better than the DE, but that they are twisty and treacherous enough that it doesn't matter - there's no moral reason why they can't ally with the DE for shared goals.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Have DE sacrificed themselves to help destroy the Blackstone Fortresses, or done anything near as helpful to humanity?

Not that I'm aware of. How does this impact DE and CWE having common culture, goals, technology, ways of thinking, military approaches and cannon instances of them working together or interacting?

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

Dark Eldar tried to stop the Heresy? Oh wait no... Self preservation for the Eldar on those too I supposed you'll argue as a weak attempt at deflection... But that still makes them more honorable and trustworthy than their Dark kin.

Well yes, self-preservation obviously. That you anticipate me pointing out the flaws in your arguments does not render them not flaws. And really, there's no attempt at "deflection". I'm indulging you in this entire tangent despite the fact that it has no bearing on whether or not DE and CWE can work well together. And it's not "CWE tried to stop the Horus Heresy" particularly. Again, this misconception that the CWE are some united force or homogenous culture. It was Eldrad Ulthran who tried to warn Fulgrim. But that's as an aside just because this idea of CWE being a united homogenous group underlies everything you've written and it's also flawed, so I wanted to point it out. The real flaw is one of your logic. That the DE didn't try to stop the Horus Heresy but Eldrad did, doesn't really make CWE "more honourable and trustworthy" than DE. Indeed, it was Eldrad who then went on to set in motion the decades of war on Armageddon to save around ten thousand Eldar lives because (of course), Eldar lives are so much more valuable than anyone elses.

Really, the energy expended on this silly tangent of trying to show the CWE as Good Guys and DE as Bad Guys is absurd. They're not and it has no relevancy to the two factions working well together.

CWE and DE share common history, the same racial goals, technological principles, military strategies, ways of thinking, basic body language, social compatability and the CWE are demonstrably willing to do monstrous things themselves. We even have fluff instances of them interacting peacefully and migrating between factions. So why this insistence on them not being able to work well together despite rules and fluff saying otherwise? For the same reason as the energy expended on this seemingly pointless tangent about CWE being all Greater Good. Because those arguing for both have the same underlying motivation for both - they want CWE to be Good Guys. Whether for some particular fetishisation of them or because they've brought in preconceptions from outside influences.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
No...you clearly don't know the general fluff if you make such comments.

Sorry, but I clearly do and you wrote that my comment proved that "I know nothing of the setting". That's so obviously untrue as to not even work as an insult. I asked you to show how it proved a lack of knowledge on my part. All you have done is just repeat your argument by assertion that I clearly don't know. Yet have never pointed out any mistake I made with the fluff in anything I have written.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

Put YOUR money where your mouth is and show me where in the fluff it shows that CWE are as untrustworthy or dishonorable as the DE. Perhaps first researching the basic definitions of those two words would help, I think that must be where your disconnect is....as it is pretty clear that CWE show more morality on both of those items in question.

Yeah, see echoing my words back at me in capital letters doesn't actually answer my question that you back up what you said with citations. I asked for sources on your conjecture because I thought it was only conjecture. And it turned out it was because you delivered no source. However, I was providing references from nearly my first post in this thread so just making the same accusation against me doesn't really work. I've answered the above charge earlier in the post, btw. What you say I said is not quite what I wrote and I've clarified it further in clear terms earlier.

Really it's not sufficient to state I have a "disconnect". You have to show where I got something wrong or didn't account for something.

You come across as very angry in your posts, btw. Just so you know.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

And the Eldar are 'good guys' in the setting

WH40K doesn't have any Good Guys. The Good Guys you are attempting to portray the CWE as, demonstrably set their own lives as individually worth billions of human ones. They've wiped out whole populations. Is that worse than a DE raid that takes ten thousand or so and needs to do so to live? You can only push the 'everything is relative' argument so far until it breaks down and you have to admit there are no good guys by any reasonable standard. The CWE are out for their own survival, just like the DE. CWE are not intrinsically reliant on other people suffering to live and so are a bit better. They also live in the material universe and therefore have greater common cause with humanity when it comes to things like blowing up a Blackstone Fortress controlled by Abaddon. But their aims are selfish, they are capable of monstrous acts in the name of pragmatism and so why should any of this stop them working well with the DE kin on the sporadic occasions where shared need outweighs their usual distrust or disdain for each

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
BUT they are all self-serving...so don't use that as an arguement on how the CWE are untrustworthy in the setting...that IS the very definition of strawman.

No, the definition of a strawman is where you pretend your opponent has said something other than what they said in order to defeat it and cast yourself as having defeated their arguments. The reason I highlighted these issues was because squidhills stated that the CWE would never lie or betray anyone. Which is pretty silly when you admit they're willing to kill for no good reason, are consummate politicians and legendary for their twisty thinking. And again, why can't someone use the fact that they're self-serving as a reason they're untrustworthy? Just because you said not to? If someone is self-serving then untrustworthiness normally goes hand in hand with that because you can't trust them to account for your needs unless you have some hold over them. And the latter isn't trust, it's leverage. Really, I find your pattern of attack, noticing the flaws in your own arguments and then saying people can't point them out, rather weird.

And again, none of this remotely stops the CWE and the DE working well together. It's just an indulgence in confronting your own preconceptions about the CWE being Good Guys when the setting doesn't back that up.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Armaggedon would have happened no matter what the Eldar did, they just chose WHERE it happened. Again, you are taking a heavy IoM point of view side of it without looking at the big picture. If the Eldar DIDN'T divert that force, they would have run over the Eldar AND multiple lesser defended Imperial areas.

Big picture, Eldar see it...you do not.

And if you think heavy self-interest in their own race and willing to sacrifice billions of another race to save theirs from harm is a strictly Eldar trait and not also usable to just about every other faction in 40k, you clearly don't know the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Despite all the counter-evidence people are bringing to you, you are still attempting to show the CWE as somehow morally better guys than the DE, more trustworthy, honourable, etc. That's not accurate. They might be a little better morally in that their means of survival don't involve direct infliction of pain on others, but that's almost as much a side-effect of their chosen method as it is a moral choice. "

This comment alone proves you know nothing of the setting....just saying...

Eldar are not "good guys", if that is what you are trying to imply. This is 40k. There are no "good guys".

@ Knas Ser and Ansacs... too much to quote so I just bound everything up into one post.

You claim my argument is wrong because of a "narrow" definition of betrayal?

Websters:

Betray: 1) To be a traitor to or commit treason against. 2) To reveal in a breach of confidence.

Ok, not very helpful... lets look up Treason.

Treason: 1) Violation of allegiance towards one's country or sovereign, esp. the betrayal of one's own country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies. 2) BETRAYAL OF CONFIDENCE OR TRUST.

THAT is the definition of betrayal. To violate a confidence or a trust. That is what I have been saying: the CWE do not violate a trust. They may kill you dead, and give you no reason for killing you dead, even if you are defenseless, but they do not violate a TRUST. Simply attacking someone is not a violation of a TRUST.

THAT is what I mean by saying the CWE are honest. On the VERY FEW occasions they have formally contacted the IoM to fight with them against a common enemy (as opposed to their usual modus operendi of showing up unanounced and shooting Chaos or whatever then leaving) the Eldar have upheld the alliance. The Eldar do not make long-term alliances, they make them for the duration of a war, and then the alliances expire. But while the fight is going on, they do not stab their allies in the back.

Conversely, the DE are renowned for stabbing each other in the back to get ahead in their society. They betray and turn on each other as part of their daily lives. THAT makes them untrustworthy. For reference, please see the fluff from the DE codex.

So, now that I have established that my argument hinges on the correct definition of betrayal, do you understand me any better?

As for my unreasonable request that someone cite a battle where the CWE voluntarily went to the aid of the DE, the inability to produce an example only supports my assertion that the CWE should not be battle brothers with DE. If the CWE won't move to help the DE unless something apocalyptically bad is facing both groups, then isn't that a condemnation of their status as "battle brothers"? After all the CWE only aid the IoM when there is an overwhelming threat to both groups, and CWE aren't battle brothers with the IoM, are they? All anyone has produced to support the battle brothers status is that ONE battle on Iyanden, and the fact that a DE once joined a Craftworld in a novel (and the fact that the character was a DE was being kept secret from most of the CWE implies that maybe, just maybe, the CWE at large might have a problem with that) and that Corsairs contain members of both factions.

But, as you have pointed out, Corsairs are banned from the Craftworld until they stop being Corsairs, so maybe being a Corsair and voluntarily hanging out with DE, or at least emulating their behavior somewhat, is frowned upon by the rest of CWE society?

And the Inquisition as a whole understands the different Eldar, but individual Inquisitors might not. The Ordo Xenos are experts, of course, and would know the difference. But unless a planet happens to have an OX Inquisitor on hand during an Eldar attack, the planetary governor isn't going to know which faction of Eldar are attacking him. Or what if he only has an Ordos Hereticus Inquisitor available? Does the OH Inquisitor know all about the Eldar? Probably not. Sure, he knows what they look like, generally, but he may not know how to distinguish factions by markings or equipment, because that knowledge is outside of the area of gak he deals with on a day to day basis. THAT is what I mean by the Imperium not seeing the distinction. The EXPERTS know the difference, but the experts are not always there when the gak hits the fan, and not everybody with an =I= symbol on their boxer shorts is an expert in Eldar.

As for my understanding of Eldar government, I only have my old codex and the local Eldar player to go by (haven't read the novel) but I understand that CWE government is fairly hands-off regarding the day to day lives of their people. However, the Farseers occupy a position of such high respect that it is equivalent to temporal authority. The Farseers get a vision of war, and tell their people 'we need to go blow gak up now'. The people follow. They are still in charge, even if they seldom exercise their power. I didn't mention taxes or anything like that, and taxes don't matter in this discussion. My point was that there is some form of leadership on the Craftworlds and that the Corsairs are outside of it (until such time as they return to the Craftworld).

For my part, I will grant that perhaps "Desperate Allies" is too harsh for the CWE/DE relationship. "Allies of Convenience" does make more sense, in light of what some have brought up. I still believe that CWE and DE cultural divides are too wide for Battlebrother status, and what has been presented so far only reinforces my belief.

@Swastakowey: Please keep looking. If you can provide a quote and a citation, I would appreciate it.

squidhills wrote:
You claim my argument is wrong because of a "narrow" definition of betrayal?

Nope. Never did. I gave a substantial list of reasons why CWE and DE can be Battle Brothers with each other. These are: shared history, shared culture, shared way of thinking - they are not alien to each other in the slightest, shared philosophy of battle, shared technological foundations, shared ultimate goals (survival of their race). In addition to this, cannon instances of DE and CWE interacting peacefully with each other even to the extent that an Incubus (someone who had to kill an Aspect Warrior as a rite of initiation) can live on a Craftworld with the knowledge of various Craftworld senior figures as to what he is and when an Eldar finds out he's a Dark Eldar his reaction is not "argghh!! Dark Eldar", nor is it "a crime! a crime!", but rather scandalized shock kind of like finding out he's a sexual pervert or something. Indeed we know that Eldar do cross between the factions and that they will even trade or spend prolonged periods of time together on occasion (Corsairs can be mixed crews). All of which indicates that if there is a shared pragmatic reason to work together, they can do so. Finally, though it's a minor point, the rules leave absolutely no ambiguity that the creators of the game consider them able to be Battle Brothers.

Objections to this have been two (and both closely related). The first is that the CWE are Good Guys and therefore would not associate with DE who are Bad Guys. This has been amply refuted by showing just how monstrously the CWE themselves can behave and that they are not therefore Good Guys. Indeed, the setting of WH40K does not have "Good Guys". Additionally it is refuted by the fluff showing CWE and DE actually going right ahead and interacting. The second objection is related and is that the DE are cartoonishly back-stabbity and treacherous and the CWE would never be so foolish as to trust them. This is flawed in multiple ways. Firstly the notion that the CWE themselves are not just as twisty-minded. If they are less, then it is not by much. I repeat - it is absurd to argue that they never lie or betray anyone or to posit that they may cause billions to needlessly die, but would never stoop to lying. The burden of proof for the latter, given its ridiculousness, is on you. Eldar of any kind are legendary for their political machinations and their setting of Eldar interests above that of aliens. Quite frankly, other Eldar are probably the only ones that can ally with DE and come out ahead. Thirdly, this idea that full trust is required in order to work together. It isn't. If the IoM can work together with the Eldar - humans being religiously against xenos, then CWE should be able to work with their kin. It doesn't mean they have to say "here are the keys to the craftworld, leave it where you found it". It just requires a modicum of guardedness and shared interests. Like I say - CWE are probably the only ones who can actually play on a level field with the DE. Furthermore, if the DE and the CWE have mutual gains or shared goals in an instance, why shouldn't they work together? They're more than capable of doing so. This brings us back to the cartoonish idea of DE as a race of people who would compulsively undermine their own best interests just to be Teh Evil. They're very savvy, cunning maneuverers. If they need CWE help, or can gain from it, then they'll ally. It's not like they have a moral problem with doing so. Nor, as demonstrated, are the CWE people prone to letting things get in the way of pragmatism.

Nobody is saying DE and CWE meet up every weekend to hold hands and exchange daisies. We're just pointing out that CWE and DE are not Good Guys and Bad Guys and that the division between them is chiefly one of method and sporadic clashes, not some unassailable divide - they actually have loads in common and understand each other perfectly well. If there's gain for both parties, they're perfectly capable of working together. They'll just keep an eye on each other. (neither is trustworthy).

squidhills wrote:

As for my unreasonable request that someone cite a battle where the CWE voluntarily went to the aid of the DE, the inability to produce an example only supports my assertion that the CWE should not be battle brothers with DE. If the CWE won't move to help the DE unless something apocalyptically bad is facing both groups, then isn't that a condemnation of their status as "battle brothers"?

No. I think you misunderstand what Battle Brothers means. And it's been explained by several of us in this thread over more than one post. It means two factions are able to function effectively together and willing to do so. I mean you could have some orks and some elder with a shared goal of krumping some Slaaneshi cultists and they could even be willing to work together. But picture the Autarch and the warboss trying to discuss strategy together. "Delay your reserves and outflank from the North East" on one side, and "you needz ta make yer shooterz louder, they is too quiet" coming from the other. Whereas DE and CWE will fit together like hand and glove. They might watch each other like hawks, but they more than meet the requirements for Battle Brothers. They're the same people!

squidhills wrote:

But, as you have pointed out, Corsairs are banned from the Craftworld until they stop being Corsairs, so maybe being a Corsair and voluntarily hanging out with DE, or at least emulating their behavior somewhat, is frowned upon by the rest of CWE society?

Banned is somewhat strong - they can come back any time. And leave to take it up again if they wish. Yes - it's frowned upon by a lot of CWE society. In much the same way our society often frowns on people going out to a party where there are drugs flying around. Some people say: "that's dangerous, be careful". Some people nod and say: "yeah, I used to do that". But it's more about risk than anything else. The life of a corsair is dangerous - it's about as close to leaving the Path as you can get without actually leaving it. That's the real point. It's "don't hang out with the DE, they'll get you into trouble, risk your souls". That may well be something an CWE warns another about, but it's not a reason they wont go into battle together.

The main reason they would have a problem with each other would be local infractions. If a group of DE raided Alaitoc or an Exodite world, then feelings against the DE are going to be pretty high on Alaitoc or that world, and you might well see reprisals. But that doesn't mean when Saim-Hann warriors across the galaxy find they have a shared enemy in a Space Marine chapter with a group of DE, that the two groups wont be teaming up to tear those mon-keigh a new one. In fact, I can well see Saim-Hann riders having a great time competing with their Dark Kin in hunting down enemies. CWE are not a homogenous single nation with one culture. DE and CWE are essentially the same people in many ways and it's more than possible that from time to time, fate throws them together on the same side in incidents here and there across the galaxy. Just as on other occasions their mutual disapproval can spill over into violence.

squidhills wrote:

And the Inquisition as a whole understands the different Eldar, but individual Inquisitors might not. The Ordo Xenos are experts, of course, and would know the difference. But unless a planet happens to have an OX Inquisitor on hand during an Eldar attack, the planetary governor isn't going to know which faction of Eldar are attacking him. Or what if he only has an Ordos Hereticus Inquisitor available? Does the OH Inquisitor know all about the Eldar? Probably not. Sure, he knows what they look like, generally, but he may not know how to distinguish factions by markings or equipment, because that knowledge is outside of the area of gak he deals with on a day to day basis. THAT is what I mean by the Imperium not seeing the distinction. The EXPERTS know the difference, but the experts are not always there when the gak hits the fan, and not everybody with an =I= symbol on their boxer shorts is an expert in Eldar.

Absolutely that is true. In fact I'd go further and say that outside the Ordo Xenos and some Rogue Traders and Space Marine chapters, very few of the Imperium know much about there being different factions and even fewer would know which were which. But I'm not sure what the IoM's ignorance has to do with how well DE and CWE can work together.

squidhills wrote:

As for my understanding of Eldar government, I only have my old codex and the local Eldar player to go by (haven't read the novel) but I understand that CWE government is fairly hands-off regarding the day to day lives of their people. However, the Farseers occupy a position of such high respect that it is equivalent to temporal authority.

That's the general state of Alaitoc for example, but if you go to Saim Hann, you'll find they're all clan based with chieftans and blood-feuds between clans are common, all very Celtic. Whilst as I understand it, Iyanden actually has a central nobility with princes such as Yriel. It varies is my point. That's why I emphasize that your view is too simplistic. DE are actually more unified politically than the CWE are. The latter are more a series of giant, floating city-states.

squidhills wrote:
The Farseers get a vision of war, and tell their people 'we need to go blow gak up now'. The people follow. They are still in charge, even if they seldom exercise their power. I didn't mention taxes or anything like that, and taxes don't matter in this discussion. My point was that there is some form of leadership on the Craftworlds and that the Corsairs are outside of it (until such time as they return to the Craftworld).

Yes, I think that's fair to an extent. But they still have family ties and friends and I'm pretty sure it's quite common for Corsairs to return in times of dire need. I haven't read The Doom of Mymeara yet (it's on my list), but don't the Corsairs and Craftworld come together in that because of ties? Think of Corsairs more as roving cousins who might come home at any time if they think their family at home is in trouble. (Of course they might not, depending).

squidhills wrote:

For my part, I will grant that perhaps "Desperate Allies" is too harsh for the CWE/DE relationship. "Allies of Convenience" does make more sense, in light of what some have brought up. I still believe that CWE and DE cultural divides are too wide for Battlebrother status, and what has been presented so far only reinforces my belief.

I think you're coming from Battle Brothers too much on a how much everyone loves each other basis. An IG commander might want to ally with an CWE force even more than some grudging DE leader does in some specific instance, but she's still going to face the problem of not understanding the capabilities of the Eldar weaponry and vehicles, finding Eldar body language impossible to read, needing a translator instead of just being able to shout "hey, we need you over there" to a bunch of Striking Scorpions, technological incompatibilities ("what do you mean just tune into the psychic network?"), exasperating the Eldar commander by needing everything explained three times more slowly than his own people, her troops freaking out at fighting alongside unnaturally tall women dressed in bone armour with masks that shred their minds, and all manner of problems. I think after an experience like that, most CWE Autarchs would turn to a group of DE and say: "look, just don't stab us in the back because we know where the webway portal is and we've got a ship there" and just enjoy working with someone on his own level again.

@ Knas Ser:

Some of what I wrote was directed at you and some was directed at Ansacs, so if i put something down that didn't make sense being directed at you (the Inquisition bit) it was probably meant for Ansacs...

As for proving my point about CWE being more trustworthy than DE, my ability to do so is limited. Since the Eldar have (for the past couple editions) stopped making formal alliances in the fluff (or at least, we've stopped seeing them do so) I have to go by older fluff. Notably, the battle report from an ancient issue of White Dwarf that kicked off the Ichar IV world campaign in 2nd ed... and no, I can't tell you the exact issue number. But it involved the Eldar formally allying with the Ultras. There was a short story in another old White Dwarf (same era) of Eldar allying with IG against Orks for a battle report... the Eldar/IG force lost, IIRC. I don't have the issue number for that either, sorry. I can understand how you might be unwilling to rely on that, so the only other thing I have is from the 2nd Ed IG codex (pages 16 & 17) about an Eldar attack on Tallarn, which ended with the Eldar allying with the IG against Chaos... and then holding themselves to the agreement, and not betraying the Tallarn. Which Craftwrold was involved is not mentioned. In none of those instances do the CWE betray the IoM during or immediately after the battle, as some (not you) have claimed that they do.

Since 2nd Ed, GW has made an effort to make the Eldar more aloof and inscrutable, and they have stopped making formal alliances (or, as I said, GW stopped showing those battles where alliances are made). So my sources for honest dealings dry up. HOWEVER, I haven't seen anything that indicates that they are DIShonest since then, either, except for quotes from various humans about the treachery of the Eldar. Those quotes all amount to nothing more than "Eldar are treacherous because they are aliens" which is pretty much what everyone is the IoM is supposed to say, not what is actually true. Now, if you could please cite something that says "The Eldar ally with Imperial planet X to fight Orks. During the conflict, the Eldar divert a comet into the planet to destroy both factions because: reasons" that would go a long way to disproving me.

It is important that the citation include mention that the Eldar have ALLIED with whatever group they end up screwing, because betrayal requires a breach of trust. Just showing up to a battle between two people you don't like and smacking them both with a comet isn't a breach of trust.

Because this is my point about proof: I can't prove honest behavior when the Eldar stopped talking to anyone in the IoM back in 3rd Edition (or, at least GW stopped showing it). I can prove it in 2nd Ed. I haven't found anything to directly contradict that proof. I make my claims about the honest nature of CWE, because I haven't seen anything that disproves it, but I have seen things that do prove it (old though they may be).

Now, if you have proof to contradict what I've said, please present it. Just one citation of CWE betraying a trust would go a long way to shutting me the feth up. However, I don't think you'll find one. As before, I don't think the Eldar are good guys, but I haven't seen them actually betray anyone. I HAVE seen the DE do that.

Remember; honesty is not exclusive to good people. I know that the honest but otherwise evil villain is not something one encounters in Western pop culture, but they do show up quite a bit in Eastern (specifically Japanese) pop culture with more frequency. The villain who will commit any crime to advance himself, but his word is his absolute bond isn't as strange once you've seen a few old samurai movies...

Oh, and lastly you posted:

"I think you're coming from Battle Brothers too much on a how much everyone loves each other basis. An IG commander might want to ally with an CWE force even more than some grudging DE leader does in some specific instance, but she's still going to face the problem of not understanding the capabilities of the Eldar weaponry and vehicles, finding Eldar body language impossible to read, needing a translator instead of just being able to shout "hey, we need you over there" to a bunch of Striking Scorpions, technological incompatibilities ("what do you mean just tune into the psychic network?"), exasperating the Eldar commander by needing everything explained three times more slowly than his own people, her troops freaking out at fighting alongside unnaturally tall women dressed in bone armour with masks that shred their minds, and all manner of problems. I think after an experience like that, most CWE Autarchs would turn to a group of DE and say: "look, just don't stab us in the back because we know where the webway portal is and we've got a ship there" and just enjoy working with someone on his own level again. "

That's... actually pretty well-put. I would argue against that interpretation, but I'd be wrong. Ok, since you explained it so well, I'm willing to concede (GRUDGINGLY!) that battlebrothers makes some measure of sense for CWE/DE... barely. It still don't sit right with me, but I see your point.

squidhills wrote:
@ Knas Ser:

Some of what I wrote was directed at you and some was directed at Ansacs, so if i put something down that didn't make sense being directed at you (the Inquisition bit) it was probably meant for Ansacs...

As for proving my point about CWE being more trustworthy than DE, my ability to do so is limited. Since the Eldar have (for the past couple editions) stopped making formal alliances in the fluff (or at least, we've stopped seeing them do so) I have to go by older fluff. Notably, the battle report from an ancient issue of White Dwarf that kicked off the Ichar IV world campaign in 2nd ed... and no, I can't tell you the exact issue number. But it involved the Eldar formally allying with the Ultras. There was a short story in another old White Dwarf (same era) of Eldar allying with IG against Orks for a battle report... the Eldar/IG force lost, IIRC. I don't have the issue number for that either, sorry. I can understand how you might be unwilling to rely on that, so the only other thing I have is from the 2nd Ed IG codex (pages 16 & 17) about an Eldar attack on Tallarn, which ended with the Eldar allying with the IG against Chaos... and then holding themselves to the agreement, and not betraying the Tallarn. Which Craftwrold was involved is not mentioned. In none of those instances do the CWE betray the IoM during or immediately after the battle, as some (not you) have claimed that they do.

Since 2nd Ed, GW has made an effort to make the Eldar more aloof and inscrutable, and they have stopped making formal alliances (or, as I said, GW stopped showing those battles where alliances are made). So my sources for honest dealings dry up

That's okay. I don't disbelieve you on this without citations. That demand was at Farseer Thingamagig because what they wrote was so obviously supposition in that case. I actually have no problem believing you about some battle report in an old White Dwarf. I almost certainly read the same report back then. I would say that a battle report in an old WD is not the best source of informing ourselves in the fluff. But that aside, I'll take your word for it - no problem. Perhaps now is the point that one of us should start cooling things down. And you've already done that, so peace.

I actually think the Eldar were more psychotic and aloof in the original Rogue Trader. It depends whether by aloof you mean not encountered, or you mean not peacefully interacted with. But if the latter well the original Eldar were pretty much all decadent pirates. It was the massive overhaul they received in WD126/7 (not sure from memory) where we suddenly got aspects and avatars and the Fall and maiden worlds.

I'll concede that I can't recall a specific instance of CWE directly lying or betraying humans. But as I said in the previous post, it's an odd hang-up for two reasons. Firstly there are plenty of other ways they have screwed over humanity. Honesty and plain dealing just isn't something I associate with Eldar. And secondly as I've already remarked, it's a bit weird that Eldar might condemn billions of people to death yet recoil from lying or not showing up as promised. I am familiar with the notion of the honest villain. It exists. I still feel there's an onus on you to explain why you think the legendarily political and Machiavellian Eldar might have such a horror of betrayal when they're so capable of greater atrocities. In absence of a conclusive answer either way, I feel I have way stronger arguments for which way is the most likely. At any rate, as I also remarked in my previous posts, I feel its an unnecessary requirement at any rate. The only question is will DE and CWE be willing to work together. In arguing that the CWE are honest and committed to promises, you're actually arguing more in favour of DE being willing to ally with CWE than I am, on these grounds! The difference essentially, is that I think both DE and CWE will be placing safe-guards and keeping a wary eye on each other, and you think that the DE could actually trust the CWE to keep their word, but that the DE will always be Stabbity McBackstab and could never work with the CWE. I disagree. The DE are canny maneuverers and sneaky as a weasel. But they're not going to go against their interests just to live up to some movie villain stereotype. CWE and DE seldom ally. They have different spheres of influence for the most part, they're both powerful factions not to be trifled with and they actually have some relations with each other, albeit it sporadic and a little suspicious. So alliances aren't going to be a routine thing. But if they find a mutual benefit or common goal, my point is why not? By all means argue that the CWE will have to keep their guard up, but there's quite frankly no-one better at dealing with the DE and getting away with it than the CWE. They're the same people and every bit as good at sneaky maneuvering as the DE. The DE may be a little wilder and more reckless and thus more likely to try something on, but the CWE have psykers who can predict multiple futures so they have their own edge too.

Anyway, my point is not that they're great buddies - if they were then the Harlequins wouldn't be busy trying to get them to kiss and make up (don't picture that, btw). But simply that if they do find their interests coinciding, there's going to be dialogue and potential working together. Picture orks meeting humans for contrast. Humans look at orks and see grunting savages (they probably don't even speak orkish) and they're completely alien to each other and diplomacy is probably dead before it starts. Two factions of Eldar meet and it's immediately "Oh it's you. What do you want?" Followed by "We don't want you to do that, back off" (from whichever faction has the current advantage) but also possible: "actually, we'd like to drive out these mon-keigh as well... you can take out their command post? really? okay. we can deal with the titan."

The point is, unlike humans meeting orks, or humans meeting Eldar, there's zero effort involved between DE and CWE who encounter each other to actually open a dialogue and understand each other. Hell, if there are some Harlequins present, they'll probably get everyone actually around a table! Both factions have seen their race almost wiped out. I don't think either especially wants to finish the job. Sure they'll kill each other often enough and you get nutters like the Incubi who pride themselves on going up against the best that the CWE have got. But its also perfectly plausible that they'll talk and come to an arrangement. And so long as that's a plausible arrangement, Battle Brothers can make sense in the game. Doesn't matter if on several other occasions they came to blows, the fact is that it can also happen that they'll work well together.

squidhills wrote:

Oh, and lastly you posted:

"I think you're coming from Battle Brothers too much on a how much everyone loves each other basis. An IG commander might want to ally with an CWE force even more than some grudging DE leader does in some specific instance, but she's still going to face the problem of not understanding the capabilities of the Eldar weaponry and vehicles, finding Eldar body language impossible to read, needing a translator instead of just being able to shout "hey, we need you over there" to a bunch of Striking Scorpions, technological incompatibilities ("what do you mean just tune into the psychic network?"), exasperating the Eldar commander by needing everything explained three times more slowly than his own people, her troops freaking out at fighting alongside unnaturally tall women dressed in bone armour with masks that shred their minds, and all manner of problems. I think after an experience like that, most CWE Autarchs would turn to a group of DE and say: "look, just don't stab us in the back because we know where the webway portal is and we've got a ship there" and just enjoy working with someone on his own level again. "

That's... actually pretty well-put. I would argue against that interpretation, but I'd be wrong. Ok, since you explained it so well, I'm willing to concede (GRUDGINGLY!) that battlebrothers makes some measure of sense for CWE/DE... barely. It still don't sit right with me, but I see your point.

It's gracious of you to concede a point. I think to some extent we've been talking at cross-purposes. You have considered Battle Brothers to mean best mates sort of thing. I agree that's wrong for CWE and DE. There's undoubtedly friction between them and often enough violence. But I'm pretty certain that's not what Battle Brothers means. Perhaps the term is badly chosen by GW.

I mean, IG can be Battle Brothers with Space Marines and I bet half the time the IG hate the marines. What's the joke? Join the IG, die in your thousands to push back the enemy and then watch the Space Marines show up in the last five minutes to take the credit.