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Glaiceana wrote: Since I started out more into collecting and painting, I chose an army that I really loved the look of, and that happened to be Tyranids. I did consider lizardmen or beastmen because they also looked awesome, but I just stuck with my first army choice, and my brother picked a few 40k armies, so I guess that's why I'm not in fantasy really.
But you'd think fantasy would still be popular, what with the hobbit films being super popular etc, you'd think more people would be interested in it.
Probably a lot of them would, if they had seen some advertising and had the slightest inkling the game existed.
(My entire wargames career began with a TV ad for the board game Heroquest.)
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
Lanrak wrote: @Vulcan .
Well lets see then.
IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists.
Take them to your LFGS.
And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews.
YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT!
(Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)
To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.
BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...
I keep meaning to do this and finally got around to reading the rules yesterday. Seems pretty good, a little bare in some places (wargear) but I think I learnt everything I could possibly need in like half an hour.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Lanrak wrote: Hi all, there is a 28mm mass battle fantasy game that works really well. Look at Mantic Games Kings Of War.
SPECIFICALLY written to scale up to larger games without slowing down.
And Mantic Games minatures are reasonably priced.(The Army box sets are excellent value for money compared to GW prices!)
The problem with Mantic is that some of their miniatures are absolutely HIDEOUS. I can't stand those elves, they just hurt my eyes. Their skeletons and humans are ugly as well. Some of their miniatures do look good, I love their zombies and I like their dwarves and orcs as well. I think most people are already aware of Kings of War as I see their miniatures used a lot for WHFB. Regarding the rules, I must say that I prefer Warhammer over Kings of War. Not that Kings of War is not good, but I just prefer Warhammer. Kings of War is also sadly lacking in fluff. But, you are right, their army boxes are a really good deal compared to GW's overpriced stuff. What does GW use to make those miniatures? Pure gold?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/30 21:39:07
Glaiceana wrote: Since I started out more into collecting and painting, I chose an army that I really loved the look of, and that happened to be Tyranids. I did consider lizardmen or beastmen because they also looked awesome, but I just stuck with my first army choice, and my brother picked a few 40k armies, so I guess that's why I'm not in fantasy really.
But you'd think fantasy would still be popular, what with the hobbit films being super popular etc, you'd think more people would be interested in it.
Probably a lot of them would, if they had seen some advertising and had the slightest inkling the game existed.
(My entire wargames career began with a TV ad for the board game Heroquest.)
Hmm that's true. Has there actually been tv ads for warhammer?
Glaiceana wrote: Since I started out more into collecting and painting, I chose an army that I really loved the look of, and that happened to be Tyranids. I did consider lizardmen or beastmen because they also looked awesome, but I just stuck with my first army choice, and my brother picked a few 40k armies, so I guess that's why I'm not in fantasy really.
But you'd think fantasy would still be popular, what with the hobbit films being super popular etc, you'd think more people would be interested in it.
Probably a lot of them would, if they had seen some advertising and had the slightest inkling the game existed.
(My entire wargames career began with a TV ad for the board game Heroquest.)
Hmm that's true. Has there actually been tv ads for warhammer?
Lanrak wrote: Hi all, there is a 28mm mass battle fantasy game that works really well.
Look at Mantic Games Kings Of War.
SPECIFICALLY written to scale up to larger games without slowing down.
And Mantic Games minatures are reasonably priced.(The Army box sets are excellent value for money compared to GW prices!)
The problem with Mantic is that some of their miniatures are absolutely HIDEOUS. I can't stand those elves, they just hurt my eyes. Their skeletons and humans are ugly as well.
Some of their miniatures do look good, I love their zombies and I like their dwarves and orcs as well.
I think most people are already aware of Kings of War as I see their miniatures used a lot for WHFB. Regarding the rules, I must say that I prefer Warhammer over Kings of War. Not that Kings of War is not good, but I just prefer Warhammer.
Kings of War is also sadly lacking in fluff.
But, you are right, their army boxes are a really good deal compared to GW's overpriced stuff. What does GW use to make those miniatures? Pure gold?
I theorize that some of the CEO's cocaine may have ended up in the mix.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/30 21:49:23
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
"...I keep meaning to do this and finally got around to reading the rules [Kings of War] yesterday. Seems pretty good, a little bare in some places (wargear) but I think I learnt everything I could possibly need in like half an hour...
If you already have WHFB armies, KoW is a low risk try. The free rules (also available in mini-rulebook/pamphlet format in starter sets) contain the entire core game rules.
For wargear, the hard cover includes two pages of magic items that you can use to boost units and heroes and to make them more unique (faster, stronger, heal-ier, more survivable, more range, more maneuverable, etc.)
The hardcover rulebook costs around $30-35 US includes all army lists up to about the time the Mantic Ogres and Basileans (humans) were released.
You can play humans with the list included in that book/free download and the Ogre list was still available free at my last time checking.
Glaiceana wrote: Since I started out more into collecting and painting, I chose an army that I really loved the look of, and that happened to be Tyranids. I did consider lizardmen or beastmen because they also looked awesome, but I just stuck with my first army choice, and my brother picked a few 40k armies, so I guess that's why I'm not in fantasy really. But you'd think fantasy would still be popular, what with the hobbit films being super popular etc, you'd think more people would be interested in it.
Probably a lot of them would, if they had seen some advertising and had the slightest inkling the game existed.
(My entire wargames career began with a TV ad for the board game Heroquest.)
Hmm that's true. Has there actually been tv ads for warhammer?
Lanrak wrote: Hi all, there is a 28mm mass battle fantasy game that works really well. Look at Mantic Games Kings Of War.
SPECIFICALLY written to scale up to larger games without slowing down.
And Mantic Games minatures are reasonably priced.(The Army box sets are excellent value for money compared to GW prices!)
The problem with Mantic is that some of their miniatures are absolutely HIDEOUS. I can't stand those elves, they just hurt my eyes. Their skeletons and humans are ugly as well. Some of their miniatures do look good, I love their zombies and I like their dwarves and orcs as well. I think most people are already aware of Kings of War as I see their miniatures used a lot for WHFB. Regarding the rules, I must say that I prefer Warhammer over Kings of War. Not that Kings of War is not good, but I just prefer Warhammer. Kings of War is also sadly lacking in fluff. But, you are right, their army boxes are a really good deal compared to GW's overpriced stuff. What does GW use to make those miniatures? Pure gold?
I theorize that some of the CEO's cocaine may have ended up in the mix.
Wow so one commercial the year I was born? How is there not more lol. How about Games Workshop specific TV ads?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/27 12:53:16
If you consider KoW has only been about for 3 years or so.
And WHFB has been on the go for over THIRTY YEARS!
it is hardly a surprise WHFB has got deeper background fluff than KoW.
The guys at Mantic wanted to get the game play defined and refined first,and then build up the background. And the background is filling out nicely IMO.
It is possible to use WHFB minis and background with KoW rules .(There are lots of Fan Lists that support this.)
I find it much easier to write my own background and narrative , than develop a fast play rule set for massed battles in 28mm.
Vulcan wrote: As yet, it doesn't do one thing I need it to do - allow me to walk into the game shop with my army and get in a pickup game. There aren't enough (if any) KoW players in the area for that. In that it's like every other mini game in out area outside of WFB, 40K, and Warmahordes - you need to contact a player and schedule a game; pickup games simply do not happen.
Will that chance in the future? Good question.
No the question is...Do you care if it changes? Nothing changes by excepting the norm, you must be willing to effect change.
I actually have the short rules set for KoW and have offered to do some test games with other people. If they're not willing, what more can I do? I'm not going to hold them at gunpoint and force them, after all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lanrak wrote: @Vulcan .
Well lets see then.
IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists.
Take them to your LFGS.
And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews.
YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT!
(Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)
To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.
BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...
I believe I just addressed this point...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/31 00:43:42
If you build a list properly, and not just combat blocks that lead a game to be stuck in for 3 turns, I don't think anything save cost per army to be wrong with the game. I used to play, but found Warmachine to be more fun than what I had of WHFB at the time.
Side note: that ad is for the GW that got me in to gaming up until I moved to a better shop just a little ways down the road. It just recently closed and said other shop got the painting table and gaming tables out of the dumpster.
The main problem I have with fantasy is that GW has totally taken a stance to neglect Wood Elves.. Before I began collecting my Grey knights I asked around about them because I was looking into playing but then I got "haha they haven't been updated in a decade" That and really just the fact it's hard to find a game of fantasy. I mean you have to really ask around to find fantasy players. at least where I am. It's kind of tough to invest when the games are much shorter and its harder to find matches as it is.
I want to see the wood elves come back as much as the next man, but for me, the biggest problem for fantasy (and 40k) is it doesn't know if it wants to be a RPG skirmish game, or a game for mass battles.
Instead, we get this horrible, halfway house approach, which can be a total mess at times. See storm of magic as an example.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Lanrak wrote:@Vulcan . Well lets see then. IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists. Take them to your LFGS. And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews. YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT! (Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)
To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.
BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...
Go on. Try it. I bet that you don't get the response you claim here that you would get. If you go into your FLGS and try and do this, most people won't bother. Put yourself in their shoes. You've come in with your WHFB models, probably after a hard day at work or something, ready to play a nice game of FLGS and some guy, who you may or may not know very well, asks you to try out a new game. You've got the choice of saying yes and you and your opponent can spend hours trying to grasp new, unfamiliar rules, with unfamiliar terminology, or you can say no and spend considerably less time (as you know what you're doing) playing a game that you and your opponent are familiar with and know you enjoy.
Here's an analogy. You've gone down to your local swimming pool, again, maybe after a hard day at work, to get a few lengths in, and, before you get in, some guy says "hey! Why not try out this new stroke I invented". Are you really going to spend your own time trying to learn this new thing this guy has asked you to try and learn, something which may take a while and you may not enjoy? No, you're going to get on with your own thing, something you know you enjoy.
Maybe this is something you could arrange, but that sort of defeats the point anyway.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:the biggest problem for fantasy (and 40k) is it doesn't know if it wants to be a RPG skirmish game, or a game for mass battles.
Instead, we get this horrible, halfway house approach, which can be a total mess at times. See storm of magic as an example.
WHFB knows exactly what it wants to be. It's a mass battle game, as we've already discussed several times. A 250pt game of Fantasy doesn't work. A 2500 point game is great. Storm of Magic should not be brought into this discussion. It is an expansion which, unlike 40k supplements, is not legal for regular play. It's the WHFB version of Apocalypse and is not meant to be balanced or competitive in any way, simply an opportunity to do crazy stuff and blow stuff up.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/12/31 15:11:15
Lanrak wrote:@Vulcan .
Well lets see then.
IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists.
Take them to your LFGS.
And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews.
YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT!
(Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)
To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.
BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...
Go on. Try it. I bet that you don't get the response you claim here that you would get. If you go into your FLGS and try and do this, most people won't bother. Put yourself in their shoes. You've come in with your WHFB models, probably after a hard day at work or something, ready to play a nice game of FLGS and some guy, who you may or may not know very well, asks you to try out a new game. You've got the choice of saying yes and you and your opponent can spend hours trying to grasp new, unfamiliar rules, with unfamiliar terminology, or you can say no and spend considerably less time (as you know what you're doing) playing a game that you and your opponent are familiar with and know you enjoy.
Here's an analogy. You've gone down to your local swimming pool, again, maybe after a hard day at work, to get a few lengths in, and, before you get in, some guy says "hey! Why not try out this new stroke I invented". Are you really going to spend your own time trying to learn this new thing this guy has asked you to try and learn, something which may take a while and you may not enjoy? No, you're going to get on with your own thing, something you know you enjoy.
Maybe this is something you could arrange, but that sort of defeats the point anyway.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:the biggest problem for fantasy (and 40k) is it doesn't know if it wants to be a RPG skirmish game, or a game for mass battles.
Instead, we get this horrible, halfway house approach, which can be a total mess at times. See storm of magic as an example.
WHFB knows exactly what it wants to be. It's a mass battle game, as we've already discussed several times. A 250pt game of Fantasy doesn't work. A 2500 point game is great. Storm of Magic should not be brought into this discussion. It is an expansion which, unlike 40k supplements, is not legal for regular play. It's the WHFB version of Apocalypse and is not meant to be balanced or competitive in any way, simply an opportunity to do crazy stuff and blow stuff up.
a 250 point fantasy game with the skirmish rules works nicely. 2500 point game is usually decided by uber magic spells going off, these days.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Lanrak wrote:@Vulcan .
Well lets see then.
IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists.
Take them to your LFGS.
And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews.
YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT!
(Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)
To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.
BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...
Go on. Try it. I bet that you don't get the response you claim here that you would get. If you go into your FLGS and try and do this, most people won't bother. Put yourself in their shoes. You've come in with your WHFB models, probably after a hard day at work or something, ready to play a nice game of FLGS and some guy, who you may or may not know very well, asks you to try out a new game. You've got the choice of saying yes and you and your opponent can spend hours trying to grasp new, unfamiliar rules, with unfamiliar terminology, or you can say no and spend considerably less time (as you know what you're doing) playing a game that you and your opponent are familiar with and know you enjoy.
Here's an analogy. You've gone down to your local swimming pool, again, maybe after a hard day at work, to get a few lengths in, and, before you get in, some guy says "hey! Why not try out this new stroke I invented". Are you really going to spend your own time trying to learn this new thing this guy has asked you to try and learn, something which may take a while and you may not enjoy? No, you're going to get on with your own thing, something you know you enjoy.
Maybe this is something you could arrange, but that sort of defeats the point anyway.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:the biggest problem for fantasy (and 40k) is it doesn't know if it wants to be a RPG skirmish game, or a game for mass battles.
Instead, we get this horrible, halfway house approach, which can be a total mess at times. See storm of magic as an example.
WHFB knows exactly what it wants to be. It's a mass battle game, as we've already discussed several times. A 250pt game of Fantasy doesn't work. A 2500 point game is great. Storm of Magic should not be brought into this discussion. It is an expansion which, unlike 40k supplements, is not legal for regular play. It's the WHFB version of Apocalypse and is not meant to be balanced or competitive in any way, simply an opportunity to do crazy stuff and blow stuff up.
a 250 point fantasy game with the skirmish rules works nicely. 2500 point game is usually decided by uber magic spells going off, these days.
So, with skirmish rules, not the main WHFB rules which clearly state it's a mass battle game.
"Death is my meat, terror my wine." - Unknown Dark Eldar Archon
Lanrak wrote:@Vulcan .
Well lets see then.
IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists.
Take them to your LFGS.
And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews.
YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT!
(Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)
To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.
BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...
Go on. Try it. I bet that you don't get the response you claim here that you would get. If you go into your FLGS and try and do this, most people won't bother. Put yourself in their shoes. You've come in with your WHFB models, probably after a hard day at work or something, ready to play a nice game of FLGS and some guy, who you may or may not know very well, asks you to try out a new game. You've got the choice of saying yes and you and your opponent can spend hours trying to grasp new, unfamiliar rules, with unfamiliar terminology, or you can say no and spend considerably less time (as you know what you're doing) playing a game that you and your opponent are familiar with and know you enjoy.
Here's an analogy. You've gone down to your local swimming pool, again, maybe after a hard day at work, to get a few lengths in, and, before you get in, some guy says "hey! Why not try out this new stroke I invented". Are you really going to spend your own time trying to learn this new thing this guy has asked you to try and learn, something which may take a while and you may not enjoy? No, you're going to get on with your own thing, something you know you enjoy.
Maybe this is something you could arrange, but that sort of defeats the point anyway.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:the biggest problem for fantasy (and 40k) is it doesn't know if it wants to be a RPG skirmish game, or a game for mass battles.
Instead, we get this horrible, halfway house approach, which can be a total mess at times. See storm of magic as an example.
WHFB knows exactly what it wants to be. It's a mass battle game, as we've already discussed several times. A 250pt game of Fantasy doesn't work. A 2500 point game is great. Storm of Magic should not be brought into this discussion. It is an expansion which, unlike 40k supplements, is not legal for regular play. It's the WHFB version of Apocalypse and is not meant to be balanced or competitive in any way, simply an opportunity to do crazy stuff and blow stuff up.
a 250 point fantasy game with the skirmish rules works nicely. 2500 point game is usually decided by uber magic spells going off, these days.
So, with skirmish rules, not the main WHFB rules which clearly state it's a mass battle game.
The Shadow does have the right of it on the response at many FLGS when Kings of War is introduced. It doesn't mean KoW isn't a solid game, but folks are often reluctant to try it OR if they do try, actually adopting it as a rules set.
Never underestimate geek peer pressure; bad experiences with previous companies who claimed to have the next big thing; and sunk cost fallacy (but I've spent so much on WHFB) to keep folks away.
In those cases where people do play it a few times, KoW shines through as a strong rule set with good mechanics. It's one of the few games (with a few cheese build exceptions) where I feel you can field almost any army and have a shot of winning.
Lanrak wrote:@Vulcan .
Well lets see then.
IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists.
Take them to your LFGS.
And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews.
YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT!
(Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)
To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.
BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...
Go on. Try it. I bet that you don't get the response you claim here that you would get. If you go into your FLGS and try and do this, most people won't bother. Put yourself in their shoes. You've come in with your WHFB models, probably after a hard day at work or something, ready to play a nice game of FLGS and some guy, who you may or may not know very well, asks you to try out a new game. You've got the choice of saying yes and you and your opponent can spend hours trying to grasp new, unfamiliar rules, with unfamiliar terminology, or you can say no and spend considerably less time (as you know what you're doing) playing a game that you and your opponent are familiar with and know you enjoy.
Here's an analogy. You've gone down to your local swimming pool, again, maybe after a hard day at work, to get a few lengths in, and, before you get in, some guy says "hey! Why not try out this new stroke I invented". Are you really going to spend your own time trying to learn this new thing this guy has asked you to try and learn, something which may take a while and you may not enjoy? No, you're going to get on with your own thing, something you know you enjoy.
Maybe this is something you could arrange, but that sort of defeats the point anyway.
Ummm.... that happen with every new game someone try to get the FLG group into. That why you make the day of it, giving demo to everyone that want to try and then do it again. This is how any game first gets started, NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY is a cope out plan and simple. I never meet a PP press ganger, wonder how that got a following, ahh... yes a guy that liked the game demoed week after week. Same thing that got them playing some new game over the past few years. So the idea of how to get people to play has stayed the same and even works. You just don't walk away the first time you fail, unless you don't care in the first place.
Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.
Noir, That works great in some places but others simply will not change.
I worked one game store for 3-4 months solid demoing 'the new game' without success. In another place, I demoed 'the new game' for a couple of months and we had half a dozen regular players pretty quickly.
You're absolutely right that once upon a time, if it wasn't GW then everyone gave you the look. Nowadays, if it isn't GW or PP, then everyone gives you the look. The market is changing but it's taken over 10 years for PP to build up their presence to what it is now.
The biggest complaint about number of models compared to 40k and Warmahordes is just foolish. Warmahordes conversions and counts as are outright forbidden plus, change your casters and you might end up with a completely different list that focuses on different aspects of the army resulting in someone having to buy almost the entire range.
Fantasy, because of how units work, has these sweet things called unit fillers. Make a model that looks cool and it can take up 4-10 spots within in an infantry unit. Just take some of the extra bits that are now included in every kit and use a little creativity. Bam! you should saved yourself some major coinage.
Not to mention that those super sweet monsters that aren't super good but are really fun to build and paint? Unit Filler. Plus most of the armeis are now focusing on low model but hard hitting units (see MC and Chimeras) makes the model count argument out of date.
Not to mention that WHFB in my experience has the biggest emphasis on the movement and deployment phase makes it one of the least forgiving games when someone screws up deployment or hasn't grasped the nuances of movement and redirection.
Lots of good points have been made. I have to semi disagree with people who say its cost is to high because of how many models you need.
That is true to some degree but a lot of armies sell their units in 20 model boxes.
I think the problem is movement and lack of shooting. The issue I have found with movement is wheeling and pivots and stuff and it can sometime be hard when the units are in the trays. Getting between terrain is also an issue. In 40k the units are more skirmishy so you can wrap around terrain and stuff and is MUCH easier to understand for new player.
I also think that there is a lack of shooting. There is shooting but it isn't as important because there isn't as much of it. People want to shoot stuff I find and move less.
40k is more appealing to younger kids in some cases because its guns and stuff and there is WAY more of that in the media now adays with video games, movies and stuff. Less so with fantasy stuff with exceptions coming from the hobbit/lord of the rings movies. This could be a reason why fantasy is less popular.
I think Fantasy offers a lot of things 40k doesn't though. There is magic in 40k but it is less important than fantasy. I find fantasy is move your units around, cast devastating spells, shoot a little, close combat (Super important). It comes down to spells and close combat really.
40k is more shooting based with lots of cool tanks, vehicles and stuff.
Also basic rules are easier to learn in 40k for new players.
I really don't like the "40k is for KIDS and STUPIDS!" argument. Is it not possible that some geeks like sci-fi settings more than fantasy settings? I'm just saying, I didn't buy Tau instead of Beastmen because I'm fething stupid and think Fantasy is "too hard" to wrap my brain around.
Desubot wrote: Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.
"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game."
Sidstyler wrote: I really don't like the "40k is for KIDS and STUPIDS!" argument. Is it not possible that some geeks like sci-fi settings more than fantasy settings? I'm just saying, I didn't buy Tau instead of Beastmen because I'm fething stupid and think Fantasy is "too hard" to wrap my brain around.
Are people saying 40k is for kids and stupids, thats funny haha
I agree and think more people (including kids which isn't a bad thing) are interested in sci-fi than a fantasy setting.
Sidstyler wrote: I really don't like the "40k is for KIDS and STUPIDS!" argument. Is it not possible that some geeks like sci-fi settings more than fantasy settings? I'm just saying, I didn't buy Tau instead of Beastmen because I'm fething stupid and think Fantasy is "too hard" to wrap my brain around.
Agreed its a bit like saying WFB players can't cope with actual objective driven scenarios rather than just seeing which uber spell wins the game - its not true but in the same vein.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Sidstyler wrote: I really don't like the "40k is for KIDS and STUPIDS!" argument. Is it not possible that some geeks like sci-fi settings more than fantasy settings? I'm just saying, I didn't buy Tau instead of Beastmen because I'm fething stupid and think Fantasy is "too hard" to wrap my brain around.
This
Because Fantasy's ruleset has some different mechanics doesn't make it a better rule-set. I like 40k and Fantasy for the settings primarily, that fewer "kids" play Fantasy isn't indicative of "better".
Pivoting and wheeling aren't too difficult, but I will say that movement can get dodgy in a few situations. If I have a gripe with Fantasy, it's that you cannot always throw down any piece of terrain, and that Fantasy regiments won't necessarily look good or interact with a terrain piece well unless constructed with Fantasy regiments in mind.
Some people play to win, some people play for fun. Me? I play to kill toy soldiers.
DR:90S++GMB++IPwh40k206#+D++A++/hWD350R+++T(S)DM+
*Shrug* I have never said that WH40K or Fantasy is 'only for kids or stupids'.
I do think that both games suffer from poor to nonexistent playtesting, and as a result have serious balance issues - but at the core that is a negative comment about the company more than the rules.
I had similar complaints about 4e D&D - and WotC has admitted that while they had large playtests they disregarded most of that data since it disagreed with the direction that they wanted to take the game.
In this case, the direction that GW wants to take the game is 'Sell more minis!!!' 'Make Kirby more money!! So he can count it!!!'
The core rules themselves... are pretty much okay, in both WHFB and WH40K. While not the best they are certainly well above average. (Well, except maybe the most recent versions of each - the rules in the latest WHFB are what sparked the local Kings of War community.)
I think that WHFB could do quite well, in hands other than those that currently hold the reins.
Also, in regards to the look of the Mantic skeletons - I agree they look hideous, if by 'hideous' you mean 'skeletons that actually look like they would fit in a human body - not some big handed big headed Hallowe'en costume'. (The undead are, in my opinion, the best looking of the Mantic figures, and beat the GW ones by a wide margin. I also like the elves - but not as elves, I use them as Sidhe in FRPs. The Men at Arms on the other hand... both Empire and Bretonnians beat them all the way around the barn.)
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
Well, aesthetics are obviously objective, but I gotta say, I just don't dig Mantics skellies. Sure the proportions are right. However, to my eye they look like cheapo plastic skeletons someone would put up as Halloween decorations, complete with drapey cloth, "boo!" poses, and evil, slanted eye sockets. The Mantic Ghouls and Zombies are pretty killer, though.
I should start a poll to see which people prefer, since the subject of Mantic vs. GW skeletons comes up really often.
~4100
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