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 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
Sure, if you compare Skaven to Grey Knights, then you're looking at a big difference. But there are far more models in my average 2,000-point IG list than in any of the 2,000-point Fantasy lists I've seen so far. The main difference, it seems to me, is that in Fantasy, you're almost always going to be maxing out the points and proportions for individual characters, while the points seem to be more dispersed in most 40k armies.

Some people play this way and yes, the game does favor HeroHammer. Still, I've seen non-Skaven armies run 50+ blocks of infantry as well as numerous support pieces.

I think the main difference that draws people to 40k is that your models are all individuals. You can make and pose your guys any way you feel like. In Fantasy, you must always be concerned about ranking up and that can cause many headaches for you if you don't follow the assembly instructions exactly. Even then, you're likely to have problems (looking at you basic Chaos Warriors). Also, magnetizing bases is an alien concept to every 40k player I know.

 azreal13 wrote:
I'm not a FB player, only briefly played when it would have been ~4th edition, so I'm not in any position to debate your points except with regard to No. 2....

What a horrible way to implement cavalry. As a self confessed cavalryman at heart in basically every game I play (I always favour fast, manoeuvrable, highly offensive units) that just comes across as wrong.

Cavalry should move fast, hit hard and ride down their target. As much as you seem to dislike how they operated in previous editions, it sounds like they were functionally closer to what they should be, not turning up in numbers and standing there to grind out a result.

Well, I had only the slightest inclination to start WHFB, and that one piece of information has extinguished that altogether!

Never quite sure where the idea that Cavalry can change anything with impunity came from - historically that's not how they worked - if you charge a disciplined, ordered infantry formation they would loose, thats if they could get their horses to actually charge a hedge of bayonets, spears or the like.

On the other hand they love charging flanks of units, disordered or fleeing enemies - that's their primary role - hence they usually work with other units such as heavy infantry or archers - they are also there to guard against your enemies cavalry - especially on the flanks / rear.

Now Fantasy obviously has lots of units that might well change this - Undead and Demon cavalry don't care about dying, Cold Ones and other thick skinned predators might also be fine with charging into formed units, but the whole Cavalry automatically sweep all before it is not very likely or make much sense......

 silent25 wrote:
Creating the matchups at the right time matters more this edition than last edition where whoever got the charge off normally won the combat.

Maybe it was the armies I played, but I never found that terribly true in previous editions unless the charger was some hardcore high attack elite (something like wardancers).

Actually I found your comment about 5 man cavalry units odd as well, 5 man cavalry units never worked terrible well unless they were something like Saurus Cold One Riders where they could deal enough damage (3+ kills) to overcome static combat res of an infantry block or if they were backed up by a 2nd unit that offered a better combat res and/or kills. I had a Bretonnian opponent for a while who was always surprised that he kept losing to me because he charged in blindly and didn't inflict enough casualties to cause my units to flee, lol.

Fantasy for me at least was less about getting the charge (unless the unit has some charge bonus of course) and more about using careful and considered movement to manage your large units which had good static combat res and often contained a large portion of your victory points with supplementary units (which varied from army to army in their role). Some armies obviously were different, but I'd say more armies operated like that or in such a way as to disrupt that (like Brets and WE). When 8th rolled around, most the rule changes were going away from that basic concept, so right from the get go the rules were very "meh" to me. I hate the whole concept of random charge distances in a game that revolves around careful movement.

There are one or two problems that I have:

#1-the price. At around £20 for a box of 20 clanrats that's £1 per mini. Not too bad you say? Well I need at least 2-3 boxes for one unit. And Stormvermin are even worse at around £30 for 15 with a minimum requirement of 2 boxes again. The pricing of single heros are no better-between £10 to £20 for one figure. I am a student, and quite frankly even if I wasn't I still could not afford those prices. They are vastly obscene, especially given the amount I will need.

#2-gunlines. The last fantasy game I played was against a gunline Chaos Dwarf army. We where playing the 'divide the table into 3 and roll randomly for where your units go' scenario (rolled for randomly) which basically left me with all my army baring 3 units crammed into the left flank, the others being in the centre. Facing his army similarly crammed with the exception of 2 flame cannon batteries that where in the centre and right respectively. By turn three I had less than 20 models left. From a 2500 point horde. With several hundred models in my dead pile (i actually started packing them as they where killed-we ran out of room.) Those few to reach combat where subsequently massacred, as expected. 3 turns of slugging through a crapstorm of cannon and artillery fire. To be munched by a deamon cannon. Oh, and kill three dwarves.

#3-painting all those damn rats. An army of grey plastic is now becoming an idea. I simply have not the time nor patience to do that many Skaven. And with armies now needing more and more foot sloggers i am really beginning to despair. GW seems to be reducing the points price of infantry, whilst increasing the per model £ cost.

Also:
@ AllSeeingSkink - you have a very good point. He whom got the charge usually won. My big nightmare came from an opponent whom fielded around 30 Brettonian Knights into a single lance, then charged my main unit. Rinse and repeat, with a few smaller units to cover the flanks. Initiative mattered not, and with the 'every casualty cant fight' rule my counter attacks usually whiffed off his 2+ armour. I am glad that we finally strike at Initiative now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, nearly forgot this:
The starter set. Sure, the Skaven force is decent and reasonable, but the HE?
You get one minimum unit of light cavalry, one minimum unit of a weird spearman/bowman combo and a unit of heavy infantry with swords, also at minimum strength. The rest of the points are sunk into the giant flying catbird for the commander, and a fancy mage.

@silent25 and azreal13 - your both right. In the ancient times the heavy cavalry, such as the knights, would serve as the frontline chargers, breaking the enemy infantry with their charge. Light cavalry where used for flanking and harassing. Its only once you start to enter the later medieval to early raneisance phase that heavy cavalry start to become less of the one hit wonder they where. This is due to the increased range of projectile weapons and pikes being widely used. Its around this time that you start to get flanking cavalry, or cavalry being used as a follow up unit to exploit a broken foe.

carmachu wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
Nothing wrong with fantasy, 8th is by far and large the best edition to date.

People keep saying that, but people have left fantasy and its not nearly as popular as it once was. Two cant go together.

Actually they can, Fantasy is not a fluid game such as 40k, Americans which are a large part of GWs market, tend to dislike slower more complex games, everything has to be 20-30 minutes long, with shallow complexity to it, "accesible" as they call it. Fantasy is just not that. To put a reverse example, The natzi were both terrible and very popular.

Cost wise, Fantasy is probably more expensive but i dont think its twice as expensive as some have said, comparing skaven or empire to SM is ridiculous, while SM is an all elite army the other are cheap and expendable and mid range combined armes, dark elves or high elves would be a better comparison.

Fantasy in general is just not as popular as it once was, i doubt it has to do with the rules, as i mentioned before, every single rule is the best its been to date.

I would argue that Fantasy is for good or ill in my opinion a Technical Game rather than Tactical Game – A lot of it is about precision and specifics.

Thats does not appeal to everyone - esepcially if you just want to unwind with a game of toy soldiers killing each other

40K is quicker and more fluid – although is suffering from the present gun line emphasis in this respect……Terrain and usage of it actually matters in 40k as do objectives…

TheAuldGrump wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

Lanrak wrote:@ The Shadow.
You may find SWITCHING to KoW rules , (free download,)is CHEAPER than continuing to BUY rules and Army book for WHFB.(Even if you do not buy any more minatures.)

All trying out KoW rules needs is a couple of hours to play a couple of quick games to get the hang of the rules.(Assuming you already have armies for WHFB.)

Really? So what if I play Lizardmen, or Beastmen, or Daemons, or Warriors of Chaos. Mantic don't do KoW models that are similar to those armies so I'd have to proxy Lizardmen as Elves or something, not very believable proxies. If you start arguing that "yes, you can still get into a wargame by doing such proxies", then that logic carries forward to pretty much any wargame. I could start Space Marines with my Vampire Counts models, or X-wing with my Dark Elves. And don't say anything about free rules, because you could download the rules illegally, if you really wanted to.

Warriors of Chaos and Daemons are both present - the direct WoC equivalent showed up in The Basilean Legacy, an abyss worshiping human army.

Daemons are also in the game, and can be found under several of the Abyss worshiping armies - Twilight Kin and Abyssal Dwarfs for a start, since they are in the main rulebook, and are free in the online army lists.

The lists are closer to older WHFB Chaos armies - the Abyssals are not the main forces of an army, at least if you want war machines and heroes. (You can get one hero and one warmachine for each Solid Unit, Abyssals do not count as 'Solid Units' .)

Obviously, I'm not knowledgeable on KoW, but I'm browsing that section of the Mantic website now and can't find anything of the kind. Either way, it doesn't sound like you can make an army out of them to me.

azreal13 wrote:I'm not a FB player, only briefly played when it would have been ~4th edition, so I'm not in any position to debate your points except with regard to No. 2....

What a horrible way to implement cavalry. As a self confessed cavalryman at heart in basically every game I play (I always favour fast, manoeuvrable, highly offensive units) that just comes across as wrong.

Cavalry should move fast, hit hard and ride down their target. As much as you seem to dislike how they operated in previous editions, it sounds like they were functionally closer to what they should be, not turning up in numbers and standing there to grind out a result.

Well, I had only the slightest inclination to start WHFB, and that one piece of information has extinguished that altogether!

Mr Morden has a good point about cavalry. They're not invulnerable and should be overwhelmed by large blocks of infantry - i.e. ones that are so large as to rob them of their momentum. Cavalry is still perfectly usable in WHFB, just just can't get a cavalry unit and point it at an enemy unit and expect that unit to be wiped off the board. However, if that's your mentality, WHFB is probably not the best wargame for you.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Litcheur wrote:
WHFB's game system may be slightly better and more balanced than 40k's, but not by far.

However, I haven't really played 8th edition all that much because I don't like the rule changes. They've made it less of a tactical game and more of a "push large piles of models toward enemy and roll a bunch of dice".

Really? In what way?

xxvaderxx wrote:
Actually they can, Fantasy is not a fluid game such as 40k, Americans which are a large part of GWs market, tend to dislike slower more complex games, everything has to be 20-30 minutes long, with shallow complexity to it, "accesible" as they call it. Fantasy is just not that. To put a reverse example, The natzi were both terrible and very popular.

Cost wise, Fantasy is probably more expensive but i dont think its twice as expensive as some have said, comparing skaven or empire to SM is ridiculous, while SM is an all elite army the other are cheap and expendable and mid range combined armes, dark elves or high elves would be a better comparison.

Fantasy in general is just not as popular as it once was, i doubt it has to do with the rules, as i mentioned before, every single rule is the best its been to date.

That's funny. I'm surprised that Europeans can play a tabletop game at all, given that they have lower IQs and have poor motor skills on top of that. I have no idea how they are able to read the rules, let alone move the figures. Strange that.

Also, thanks for the input that every single rule is the best it ever could be. Enjoy that as the game dies out because the majority of folks disagree with you. The rules are terrible, the game is outright bad and unfun, and I can't fathom why anyone would play it. See? My opinions can be stated just as authoritatively as yours with an equal dearth of reasoning.

CurrentlyUnknown wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
Actually they can, Fantasy is not a fluid game such as 40k, Americans which are a large part of GWs market, tend to dislike slower more complex games, everything has to be 20-30 minutes long, with shallow complexity to it, "accesible" as they call it. Fantasy is just not that. To put a reverse example, The natzi were both terrible and very popular.

Cost wise, Fantasy is probably more expensive but i dont think its twice as expensive as some have said, comparing skaven or empire to SM is ridiculous, while SM is an all elite army the other are cheap and expendable and mid range combined armes, dark elves or high elves would be a better comparison.

Fantasy in general is just not as popular as it once was, i doubt it has to do with the rules, as i mentioned before, every single rule is the best its been to date.

That's funny. I'm surprised that Europeans can play a tabletop game at all, given that they have lower IQs and have poor motor skills on top of that. I have no idea how they are able to read the rules, let alone move the figures. Strange that.

Let's save the racial remarks for World War 3 shall we?

 The Shadow wrote:
Let's save the racial remarks for World War 3 shall we?

Wondering which quote that was aimed at. . . .the Euopean comment that Americans need accesible things that can be terrible like the nazis, or the snarky American comment relating the European comment to the Europeans?

On topic, I still see and find more people play FB than ever.
I have only been looking for about ten years though.

 kirsanth wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Let's save the racial remarks for World War 3 shall we?

Wondering which quote that was aimed at. . . .the Euopean comment that Americans need accesible things that can be terrible like the nazis, or the snarky American comment relating the European comment to the Europeans?

Aimed at both, of course.

Excellent aim then!
Keep up the good work.

I think we can do without the rather broad generalisations of peoples from around the world eh ?

Thanks.

Eh, mine was intended to be a clear exaggeration to highlight the ridiculousness of the original statement, but perhaps I failed in that regard.

I figured you were taking piss. But sarcasm can be hard to detect in text.

What's wrong with Warhammer? Other than some of the armies needing updates? Nothing. The game is amazing.

@The Shadow.
The point I was trying to make was you can find out if you like KoW rules set or not, for very little cost.

We just used sheets of card board cut to the right unit base size with what the units were written on them to try the rules out!
(We had fun games without minatures until we saved up to by Mantic Army deals.Very good value for money IMO.)

I am not saying turn your back on WHFB, just see if you like KoW rules.
If you do you can play both games if you want to.Or stick to WHFB if you prefer.

Seeing as it's a good time to ask, are these the Mantic KoW full rules, or just a toned down version. Because whilst I appreciate KoW's relative cheap-ness and its ease of access, I really do not like these rules. They're far too simplistic for my liking and there's not enough variety in the types of units, I also don't like the fact that each unit has a set "to hit" and "to wound" value.

Just my opinion though, of course.

The mechanics are all there. From memory, aside from the 'advanced rules' (campaigns and sieges), it's only missing a few examples/diagrams, about 2 dozen more magic items, and of course the full army lists for the factions (what it has in there are the models included in the one player starters, because that booklet is included in them).

Lanrak wrote:

We just used sheets of card board cut to the right unit base size with what the units were written on them to try the rules out!
(We had fun games without minatures until we saved up to by Mantic Army deals.Very good value for money IMO.)

Could you not just do the same with WHFB? Fair enough, you'd still need to cough up for rule books, but that brings your start up cost to under a hundred quid, as opposed to a few hundred, and if you don't like it, you'll recoup about 80% of the cost of the rules by selling them on ebay, so I guess you can try warhammer for around a tenner by that logic...

 Eggs wrote:
Could you not just do the same with WHFB?

Would you cut squares off the cardboard as your unit suffers casualties?

Play with bars of chocolate, eat a piece per casualty.

Nothing wrong with Fantasy where I'm at, in fact, at the club I go to we only play Fantasy, 40K has been abandoned.. almost as soon as 6th came out actually.

I prefer Fantasy to 40K but do indeed love both games.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Really? So what if I play Lizardmen, or Beastmen, or Daemons, or Warriors of Chaos. Mantic don't do KoW models that are similar to those armies so I'd have to proxy Lizardmen as Elves or something, not very believable proxies.

If you play Lizardmen, or Beastmen or Skavens, you just use the Lizardmen, Beasmen or Skaven army books written by the community.

They are well known and widely accepted in friendly games.

So, basically, trying KOW will cost you nothing, except maybe 10 sheets of paper, some ink from your printer and 2 to 3 hours of your time to play a couple games.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Litcheur wrote:
WHFB's game system may be slightly better and more balanced than 40k's, but not by far.

I've always felt Fantasy was vastly superior as an actual game because the rules are far more self balancing, where as the 40k rules are inherently unbalancing. 40k is too much rock paper scissors. If you take too many rocks and your opponent takes too many scissors, good for you, if your opponent takes lots of paper, you're screwed.

I won't say it's vastly superior, but slightly better, and slightly more balanced.

As you said, 40k can be wildly unbalanced, and some matchups just can't be won, even by the most experienced players. The ruleset has huge loopholes and a metric f*ckton of near-useless extra super special rules. Not to mention the Space Marines. Sorry, guys, there is no DEQ (Dorf EQuivalent) in WHFB, because half of the armies aren't made of various flavours of dorfs.

However, WHFB also has the same flaws : codex creep, poorly implemented rules, loopholes... I mean, just read the Ogres FAQ.

And some flaws on its own. Not to mention the armies usually have more minis, and are more expensive and take longer to build.

But that's probably because more than half of the armies aren't made of blue dorfs with an inverted toilet seat on their banners, or blood carmine blood red blood dorfs, or light blue superextrabearded dorfs, or green emo dorfs, or spiky punk dorfs, or more blood dorfs (but bloodier than the vanilla blood variant), or green fartdorfs and pink porndorfs.
And don't even get me started on grey Mary-Sue dorfs.

 Avrik_Shasla wrote:
What's wrong with Warhammer? Other than some of the armies needing updates? Nothing. The game is amazing.

I played it a bit, and it did seem fun. But to me it just doesn't have the appeal of 40k. 40k just feels vibrant, huge, expansive, growing. Fantasy doesn't feel like any of those things, it feels like the lore was written down years ago and just stayed that way. 40k can afford to be ever-changing because it's so big that everything is happening somewhere - tyranids are destroying entire star systems at the same time as the Imperium is busy crushing them. Orks are always bashing gak at the same time as they're being crushed, etc etc. Whereas in Fantasy it's so small that things can't really change. Half of the Empire can't be conquered by Chaos or it'd change the fluff too much, the High Elves don't stray much from their island home, the dwarves are holed up in the mountains.

Also 40k has a clear protagonist - the Imperium. People may dislike it, but the Imperium has changed from its grimdark origins. Yes it's still pretty sucky, but it's also the only hope humanity has, and I feel sums up humanity as a whole in a way that no faction in Fantasy does.

CurrentlyUnknown wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
Actually they can, Fantasy is not a fluid game such as 40k, Americans which are a large part of GWs market, tend to dislike slower more complex games, everything has to be 20-30 minutes long, with shallow complexity to it, "accesible" as they call it. Fantasy is just not that. To put a reverse example, The natzi were both terrible and very popular.

Cost wise, Fantasy is probably more expensive but i dont think its twice as expensive as some have said, comparing skaven or empire to SM is ridiculous, while SM is an all elite army the other are cheap and expendable and mid range combined armes, dark elves or high elves would be a better comparison.

Fantasy in general is just not as popular as it once was, i doubt it has to do with the rules, as i mentioned before, every single rule is the best its been to date.

That's funny. I'm surprised that Europeans can play a tabletop game at all, given that they have lower IQs and have poor motor skills on top of that. I have no idea how they are able to read the rules, let alone move the figures. Strange that.

Also, thanks for the input that every single rule is the best it ever could be. Enjoy that as the game dies out because the majority of folks disagree with you. The rules are terrible, the game is outright bad and unfun, and I can't fathom why anyone would play it. See? My opinions can be stated just as authoritatively as yours with an equal dearth of reasoning.

Sorry I had to.....haha
I'm joking though cause you said you were being sarcstic

@xruslanx
Saying that 40k is better fluff wise is a personal opinion I agree that some people like different things, some people prefer lord of the rings to star wars for example
I don't think that it effects the game play at all.

I already posted here but I mean fantasy is cool 40k is cool. Some clubs/FLGS play 40k and some play fantasy some play both.
Just play both and play other games to....divvvvversifffyyyyy!!! hahaha

 The Shadow wrote:

TheAuldGrump wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

Lanrak wrote:@ The Shadow.
You may find SWITCHING to KoW rules , (free download,)is CHEAPER than continuing to BUY rules and Army book for WHFB.(Even if you do not buy any more minatures.)

All trying out KoW rules needs is a couple of hours to play a couple of quick games to get the hang of the rules.(Assuming you already have armies for WHFB.)

Really? So what if I play Lizardmen, or Beastmen, or Daemons, or Warriors of Chaos. Mantic don't do KoW models that are similar to those armies so I'd have to proxy Lizardmen as Elves or something, not very believable proxies. If you start arguing that "yes, you can still get into a wargame by doing such proxies", then that logic carries forward to pretty much any wargame. I could start Space Marines with my Vampire Counts models, or X-wing with my Dark Elves. And don't say anything about free rules, because you could download the rules illegally, if you really wanted to.

Warriors of Chaos and Daemons are both present - the direct WoC equivalent showed up in The Basilean Legacy, an abyss worshiping human army.

Daemons are also in the game, and can be found under several of the Abyss worshiping armies - Twilight Kin and Abyssal Dwarfs for a start, since they are in the main rulebook, and are free in the online army lists.

The lists are closer to older WHFB Chaos armies - the Abyssals are not the main forces of an army, at least if you want war machines and heroes. (You can get one hero and one warmachine for each Solid Unit, Abyssals do not count as 'Solid Units' .)

Obviously, I'm not knowledgeable on KoW, but I'm browsing that section of the Mantic website now and can't find anything of the kind. Either way, it doesn't sound like you can make an army out of them to me.

Obviously - you are in fact not knowledgeable about KoW.

But then there is no reason that you should be, unless you frequent the Mantic forums or have bought the Basilean Legacy. (What, you thought that I was going to disagree with you? )

The Basilean Legacy human abyssal army list (which I mentioned as the 'direct equivalent') is not yet in the free lists - though their goody two shoes enemy (the Basileans) are The Basileans are, for all intents and purposes, the Army of Law - complete with winged angels and mounted paladins.... (Including angelic characters.)

As for making a non-solid Daemon army, from what is in their free lists.... These are taken from the Twilight Kin army list.

Gargoyles* Infantry
Unit Size Sp Me Ra De At Ne Pts
Troop (5) 10 4+ – 3+ 5 9/11 50
Half-Regt. (10) 10 4+ – 3+ 10 10/12 90
Special: Fly, Regeneration

These are winged lesser Abyssals - lesser Daemons, if you prefer. Gargoyles and Harpies are their GW equivalents, I think.

Lower Abyssals* Infantry
Unit Size Sp Me Ra De At Ne Pts
Troop (10) 5 4+ – 4+ 20 11/13 115
Regiment (20) 5 4+ – 4+ 20 14/16 150
Horde (40) 5 4+ – 4+ 40 21/23 285
Special: Regeneration
Options
• Banner (+15 pts)
• Musician (+10 pts)

The foot Daemons - Anything from Bloodletters to Plaguebearers. (I have seen them fielded most often as Daemonettes - using GW and Raging Heroes miniatures.)

Death Stalker Simulacre [1] Monster
Unit Size Sp Me Ra De At Ne Pts
1 6 3+ – 6+ 10 20/22 375
Special
Crushing Strength (3), Elite

Anything from Juggernauts to Beasts of Nurgle to Chaos Spawn.

Abyssal Fiend Monster
Unit Size Sp Me Ra De At Ne Pts
1 7 4+ – 5+ 7 19/21 325
Special
Crushing Strength (3), Regeneration
Options
• Can have wings, gaining Fly and increasing Speed to
10, but reducing Defence to 4+ (+25 pts).
• Can have the Breath Attack (10) special rule (+25 pts).
• Can have the Zap! (5) special rule (+25 pts).

Greater Daemons - from Bloodthirsters to Keepers of Secrets.

Most often I have seen this figure fielded in the same army that I mentioned above -

(He has a Slannesh army - but has been fielding it in KoW - he likes being able to mix WoC with the Daemon list. He has had the army since back when WHFB had a combined army list for all of Chaos. The figure is from Ultra Forge.)

The problem kicks in if you are trying to field an all daemon army - the units with an '*' next to their name do not count as Solid Units - so you can't take an Abyssal Fiend with a unit of Gargoyles - you would have to take a unit of mortal troops to get the Monster or a Hero.

DaemonsAbyssals are meant as support, not as the backbone of the army.

Que has Basilean Legacy - he has an army that is mostly heavy cav, with an Abyssal Fiend and a mounted general. (I have not yet gotten the book - the one time I went to order it The War Store had run out. What I am really waiting for is the PDF.)

Mind you, an army of nothing but Gargoyles and Lower Abyssals would be pretty nasty - even without Heroes or Monsters, so an all Daemon army can be done, but only without Heroes, Monsters, and Warmachines.

Mostly, I would suggest trying the game out - proxy if you must, but almost all of the folks that I play against have repurposed their WHFB armies and use them in KoW, without changing much at all. We have an Orc and Goblin player, an Empire player, a Dark Elf player, a Wood Elf player, two Dwarf players, and two Undead players, and all of us are pretty happy with what we have.

The only grumbling is that the Steam Tank is not in the Kingdoms of Men list - and that was handled by allowing the tank as an Iron Dwarf from the Dwarf list to be used with the KoM list. (He also took a unit of Dwarfs, so it would have been okay, even without tweaking the rules - but telling him that he could use it anyway took out any remaining sting.)

The Auld Grump

8th edition ruined the game, a bad rules set changed the core of what the game was and added to the cost of an already expensive hobby.

CurrentlyUnknown wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
Actually they can, Fantasy is not a fluid game such as 40k, Americans which are a large part of GWs market, tend to dislike slower more complex games, everything has to be 20-30 minutes long, with shallow complexity to it, "accesible" as they call it. Fantasy is just not that. To put a reverse example, The natzi were both terrible and very popular.

Cost wise, Fantasy is probably more expensive but i dont think its twice as expensive as some have said, comparing skaven or empire to SM is ridiculous, while SM is an all elite army the other are cheap and expendable and mid range combined armes, dark elves or high elves would be a better comparison.

Fantasy in general is just not as popular as it once was, i doubt it has to do with the rules, as i mentioned before, every single rule is the best its been to date.

That's funny. I'm surprised that Europeans can play a tabletop game at all, given that they have lower IQs and have poor motor skills on top of that. I have no idea how they are able to read the rules, let alone move the figures. Strange that.

Also, thanks for the input that every single rule is the best it ever could be. Enjoy that as the game dies out because the majority of folks disagree with you. The rules are terrible, the game is outright bad and unfun, and I can't fathom why anyone would play it. See? My opinions can be stated just as authoritatively as yours with an equal dearth of reasoning.

Look, i mean no ofense, the natzi example, was intended to point out that just because something is well done, it does not make it popular and the reverse also true, just because something is bad it does not make it unpopular.

Regarding shallow and accessible games, i sorry if you feel offended, but i stand by it, World of Warcraft, Hearthstone, Apple`s entire OS design (accessibility wise), Magic the Gathering with its turn 7-8 i win cards. That is just the trend design has taken there for a while, it is not a reflect of their consumers IQ but rather their preferences and as i said before, fantasy just is not that.

Oh and by the way, im not European, not even on the same side of the Atlantic.

Wait, WoW and Mt:G are shallow games? Man, you must really know how to make friends on the internet.