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35pts over is insulting - I would think he knows this as he reacted defensively.

The very least you should do is say - right I have another 35pts to spend then and spend some time working out what to add.

bottom line - he is way out of order.

When I was a new player I thought going over the points by a little bit was not a big deal, but now I realize that when you are experienced those extra 5 points can make a big difference in the list, as often your whole list can crumble if you have to cut back 4-5 points. For this reason it is unacceptable in my book to ever go over the points limit.

35 points over is a lot, and it is silly for a person to get upset if others are not okay with it. In a friendly game I wouldn't mind few points over, but with 35 you should just agree to play 1550 point game to begin with or something.

I agree it is a lot, I could give 15 MEQ models Feel No Pain for that which would really change the outcome of a game.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/568799.page#6351855

Actually this is a pretty common question.

I usually deal with them by chopping a hand off.
Unless we put something together on the fly, if we agreed on an amount of points stick to it.

In a friendly game, If I know about it, I dont really care. Its all in fun.

If your asking for a strict point limit and he doesnt, then he should respect that. If he doesnt, then throw about 200 points in your army without telling him and see what happens.

In a Tournament, the limit is set in stone.

i would say that "not sweating the small stuff" goes both ways. If you are unable to finagle to get every last point spent without going over, then its only a small thing to stay within the limit and just not spend every last point.
Like i said efore, an experienced player should never exceed the limit but if it is a newcomer or rookie, i dont sweat a couple points over but I make sur to instruct them on this so they dont start taking it for granted.

The list i usually do are 1998 or 1997, because of the CSM weird points costs here and there.

lately i worked my lost again from scratch, but i'm on the 2006pts line.

I always tell before hand, and asks if it does bother, usually poeple says no that 6 pts isn't a big deal.

You could say that i need to take something off to go under the 2k, but my list is allready really really bare, and to get under the 2000k limit, i have nothing of 6pts value, if i have to take something off, it would be 10 or 15 pts, thats a model or melta.

Seeing that i only have 4 meltas in 2000pts, i really can't afford to pass on one.

Now it allready happened that my opponent had a 2030pts lists, and was in the same predicament has i, my only reaction was to give Gift of mutation to 2 of my Champs, portin the list to 2029 and thats it...

its a game after all.

Farseer Pef wrote:
I believe this belongs in YMDC. This is a HYWPI question.

The scenario: About to play a 1500 point game with a friend. He says his list is 1535 points. I ask him to trim it down a bit since 35 points over can be a few models. He gets upset by this.

The question: What sort of overspending limits do you play with? How would you handle it if your opponent was over or asked you to trim your list? Being that I have no tournament experience, how do tournaments handle it?

Appreciate any feedback (and hope it remains civil ).

We pick a point value a little low, then if some one has a hard time trimming down his list, we discus it a bit ( that is to say we are not going to quibble about 10 points or so ), above that points there is usually one or 2 things that the other person can take to come to near parity. If it's closer to 30-45 points, we are more likely to go ahead and raise the point limit to the nearest 50 points.

So if we set the original point limit a little on the low side @ 850 ( with the understanding that it might be a little low ) - if one person has a hard time getting below 860-865, we are not going to worry about it. If they have hard time getting below 870-875 ( let's face it some armies have a harder time doing anything at lower point values ), we talk about what they are taking a bit, and then if it looks like they have trimmed much of the fat, and the other can take an item or two to bring them into point parity, then we go with that, otherwise we might go ahead and bump it up to a 875 or even a 900 point game, and adjust everything as necessary - usually it's easier to trim the fat with higher point.

You might try keeping a second list of things you would like to have in a game, and either offer to add a thing or two from to your second list to bring your list into parity with his or let him strike an item or two off of his list to bring his list into parity with yours.


Let's face it, the basic reason for using a points system, is to start play at near parity - it really does not matter if both armies are at 1500 or 1545.

So if near parity is achieved by agreeing with 1500 pts, but if you are then prepared to add a model or piece of equipment in case your opponent can't get his army below 1535, what is the problem? The idea is to have fun.

 Chopper Greg wrote:

So if near parity is achieved by agreeing with 1500 pts, but if you are then prepared to add a model or piece of equipment in case your opponent can't get his army below 1535, what is the problem? The idea is to have fun.

+1.

For those who say that even 1 pts above the agreed limit is unacceptable, if you're playing in a friendly game (non-tourney), remember you're really just playing a game of "Pew Pew Layzors!" .
I don't really understand the whole thing of "It must be EXACTLY as specified" when playing for "fun". You're supposed to be just messing around with your friends, maybe drinking a beer, making inappropriate yet incredibly funny jokes, randomly making DoW quotes and speculating as to how exactly a battlecannon shot just landed 3" behind the turret.

Or maybe 40k is really "Srs Bizniss" where you are...

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 namiel wrote:
I WANT to see flamers popping tanks, guardsmen beating bloodthirsters to death I WANT it to be full of this stuff.

Oh, the mental imagery! In my mind I saw an IG holding his lasgun by the barrel, sitting on the Thirster's face, smacking it repeatedly with the butt of the gun, yelling "I've fking had enough of you!"

Exalted. That would be the best thing ever.

That goes both ways. if your playing for fun, not having that extra melta or daemon or whatnot is not that big a deal and is a lot more respectfull than just saying "My mathammer is strong and if I dont have extra 8 conscripts, i will go down 4.97% to kill a marine per 38 shots."

I understand your view on this and mean no disrespect but I just feel that that respect goes both ways and that it is more disrespectful to purposely go over the limit by 35 points in order to gain an advantage than it is to ask someone to play by the rules.

That being said, i would say consider your options. How many oponents do you usually have? If thats the only other guy in town, it might be woth it to let it slide but inform him that next time he needs to come prepared. Consider the person. Is it an honest mistake that they wont make again or is it some chhesball who spends hours mathammer to get the perfect percentages they want? Or is it the rookie player who is just learning the game? Is it your best friend who would get upset enough to where it would create a rift in the friendship? These and other questions could alter your decision. What it comes down to is a personal decision that you and your opponant need to work out for yourselves.

As a side not, something you could do is set aside a sheet of notebook paper and keep track. This tie, he went over 35 points. next game, YOU get to spend an extra 35 points.

Another could be to play arrative games where points arent that big a deal. My old gaming group had a lot of fun with this as there was only 3 of us, we always had an odd man out except when we played 2v1. the odd man out would set up the table and develope the scenario. This way, if one guy is over 35 points, the game "er" could tip the scales 35 points worth in some fashion.

 Selym wrote:

 Chopper Greg wrote:

So if near parity is achieved by agreeing with 1500 pts, but if you are then prepared to add a model or piece of equipment in case your opponent can't get his army below 1535, what is the problem? The idea is to have fun.

+1.

For those who say that even 1 pts above the agreed limit is unacceptable, if you're playing in a friendly game (non-tourney), remember you're really just playing a game of "Pew Pew Layzors!" .
I don't really understand the whole thing of "It must be EXACTLY as specified" when playing for "fun". You're supposed to be just messing around with your friends, maybe drinking a beer, making inappropriate yet incredibly funny jokes, randomly making DoW quotes and speculating as to how exactly a battlecannon shot just landed 3" behind the turret.

Or maybe 40k is really "Srs Bizniss" where you are...

Disrespect is coming to a game and expecting your opponent to accept that you're playing above the agreed upon point level.

Having said that, I'd much rather play a guy with +35pts, +50pts, hell....+200pts than to play someone who has ZERO interest in playing at a respectable pace. I recently played against a guy who took for-freaking-EVER to play his turns. He looked up every rule for his codex (ignoring the fact that I was giving him the info as he was playing an army that I also play) and basically just crawled through molasses to do anything (when he wasn't turning around to join in on a conversation that was going on in the room. AAAAARRRGHHHH!!!) We got through 3 full turns in almost 4 1/2 hours, and after that, I told him I had to leave.

I will NEVER play that guy again. NEVER!

I'd heard from others afterward that his focus was largely modeling/converting, but that's no excuse. This game requires a social contract, and I'm not signing the dotted line if you've added an "I'm going to suck the life out of you and make you hate humanity" clause to yours.

Just like any illegal list. Do you allow your opponents to play with 1 Troop? 4 FAs?

The game can't begin until there are two legal lists.

rigeld2 wrote:
Just like any illegal list. Do you allow your opponents to play with 1 Troop? 4 FAs?

The game can't begin until there are two legal lists.

Occasionally. Usually when armies are made last minute, and the mistake isn't caught till after.

Or if the players agree to play double FoC...

Remember that now playing 5 Elites and 6 HS units, isn't illigal anymore, its just a way to argue

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Or if the players agree to play double FoC...

Remember that now playing 5 Elites and 6 HS units, isn't illigal anymore, its just a way to argue

My assumption was single FOC, but thanks.

And since I double check lists in battlescribe during deployment (takes all of 2 minutes unless their list is horribly written, in which case I ask them to throw it in battlescribe on my ipad) it'd be hard for something that big to slip by me. Especially when I rarely ever play games more than 1850 points.

Steelmage99 articulates how I feel on this matter that I can't improve upon his words:

Steelmage99 wrote:Copy-paste to the rescue!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll allow a zero point breach of the maximum allowed.

5 points is the difference between a Mortar and an Autocannon. It makes a hell of a lot of difference to the Rhino heading towards you.

3 points allows a Singing Spear upgrade. Make a lot of difference to the Land Raider nearby. Plus I get to hear about how his Warlock killed my Land Raider forever.

Saying; "It's just x points. It doesn't make a lot of difference" is a huge fallacy. Those few points might be part of a larger chunk of points that makes it possible to field that extra Hive Guard, Terminator, Meltagun or whatever.

Saying; "Just add a Melta Bomb to one of our Sergeants and we are even" is a fallacy. Said squad might not have been taken to move aggresively forwards....making the upgrade utterly pointless. Hell, it might even induce me to stray from the basic tenents of my battleplan, which I had in mind when I made the armylist. Maybe I even considered giving him a Melta Bomb but discarded the idea because it was a pointless waste of points.....and now I add it again to compensate for your unwillingness to follow the rules?

If 5 points is no big deal, then remove them. They are "no big deal", remember?

Thank you for putting me in a situation where I, by saying "no", is denying you your "right to have fun". I am not really given a choice. You broke the rules/agreement and suddenly I'M the TFG?!?

We have to set the limit somewhere....and that might as well be at the limit agreed upon beforehand.

In a competitive setting this wouldn't normally be allowed, unless it was built into the rules of the competition.

In a casual setting, if you found out right before the game starts that your friend's army has 35 extra points, you could ask for a few minutes while you add 35 points to your army to even the forces out, at least in point value. Or you can make some other compromise, like you get 1 reroll or victory point per 5 points difference.

Regardless, you may consider trying to understand why your friend is going over. Rather than guessing as to why, talk about it. Maybe they don't fully understand or even just don't like the list-building aspect of the game. Maybe they don't think having to sacrifice fielding one unit in favor of another is "fun".

As said earlier in the thread, the points limits are entirely arbitrary. It doesn't have to be a round number... it can even be a prime number. The point is, if your friend is chronically over-points, you could have him make his list first and tell you how many points he's fielding a few days in advance of the game, so that you have plenty of time to plan an army of matching points.

Edit: clarity (irony?)

A few thoughts (some repeats of those already mentioned);

1) Some people are complainers. They might not mean to and they might not be bad people but when challenged about anything they'll complain. They might well agree or not put up actual resistance but they'll still complain - its just the way they are. Typically its best just ignored as a quirk of character and 5 mins into the game it should be water under the bridge and long forgotten as you get into the game.

2) Army lists - even in casual play always try to ensure written out lists; it helps to ensure fair play by both parties and also means that any mistaken maths has the potential to be corrected by the opponent (when they see the list) before the game begins. It takes a few moments to write out a list so try to always insist upon it (I put this down alongside always playing with rule books+codex+any FAQ/errata printed out if you're going to use the FAQ/errata - its all just basic parts of playing this game).

3) Where a players army fails to meet the points list - either over or under the limit; try to see if there is way to correct the issue. Most players will correct it themselves if they are under the points limit and unless its a very significant amount there is unlikely to be a perfect way to get to the points level for each army.
Where you've a player who has gone over there are a few approaches;

a) Ask them to remove some assets to take their points cost down to equal or just lower than the set limit. A first port of call and a good one to make.

b) Ask to allow yourself to be taken up to the same value as the other army; this is a great option for casual games and its really just having minor adjustment to the games points limit in the match you're playing.

c) Refuse to play - not ideal and a very last resort that should be reserved only for the most frequent breakers of the rules and the most rude refusal to play by them. Chances are this will never be used or if it is is highly rare.



In the end remind your opponent that you're just ensuring a fair and equal game; there's no fun in a one sided match and the fun of the game is in the challenge of equal matched opposing teams fighting it out.


In the past myself I've mostly played in casual environments - 5 or so points over the limit was mostly just ignored although most were generally good at ensuring they were not over. A similar 1% limit is also a decent point to work from as a rough house rule.

 Selym wrote:
For those who say that even 1 pts above the agreed limit is unacceptable, if you're playing in a friendly game (non-tourney), remember you're really just playing a game of "Pew Pew Layzors!" .
I don't really understand the whole thing of "It must be EXACTLY as specified" when playing for "fun". You're supposed to be just messing around with your friends, maybe drinking a beer, making inappropriate yet incredibly funny jokes, randomly making DoW quotes and speculating as to how exactly a battlecannon shot just landed 3" behind the turret.

This. It's never a big deal if you're a little under the limit, so you should never insist on going over so that you can have a better chance of winning the game. Just play your 1495 point list, have a beer, and enjoy the game.

 Selym wrote:


For those who say that even 1 pts above the agreed limit is unacceptable, if you're playing in a friendly game (non-tourney), remember you're really just playing a game of "Pew Pew Layzors!" .
I don't really understand the whole thing of "It must be EXACTLY as specified" when playing for "fun". You're supposed to be just messing around with your friends, maybe drinking a beer, making inappropriate yet incredibly funny jokes, randomly making DoW quotes and speculating as to how exactly a battlecannon shot just landed 3" behind the turret.

Or maybe 40k is really "Srs Bizniss" where you are...

If it's a friendly game why is your opponent not respecting the agreed upon point limit? It's not something to get 'worked up' about but it is rather inconsiderate and presumptuous ...AKA, rude. No one has tried this on me in a friendly game yet but if someone presented me with their list and asked if it was ok that they went over their point limit I would say something to the effect of "I will accept that have not brought a list that fulfills the agreed upon requirements and have just forfeited the game but I am willing to play it out if you like" and I would not be 'worked up' over it... that's just 1-10 points over for me. At 35 points over I would accept their concession and not even offer to play it out.

I did have one player change his list after deployment and into the first player turn(my first turn). He said "Oh wait, that's the old list I had, this is the correct one"... it was essentially the same but his Vendettas where equipped differently. As I had already selected psychic powers, deployed and moved based on the other list and did not feel like doing it all over again I said the above to him and he dropped his head and said 'ok'. Later in the game I got my units of Zoanthropes mixed up and proceeded to used the wrong powers with two of them. He realized after the fact and informed me of my mistake. I offered to take it all back but he said it was to late and that he would accept my concession but would play it out anyways if I'd like to... I dropped my head and agreed, we both laughed and continued the game. Nobody won as we had both conceded but it was fun none the less

Cheating is still cheating even in a friendly game.

 EVIL INC wrote:
i would say that "not sweating the small stuff" goes both ways. If you are unable to finagle to get every last point spent without going over, then its only a small thing to stay within the limit and just not spend every last point.
Like i said efore, an experienced player should never exceed the limit but if it is a newcomer or rookie, i dont sweat a couple points over but I make sur to instruct them on this so they dont start taking it for granted.

I used to spend hours finagling my lists every which way for maximum possible advantage from the points we were playing at. Enjoyed it too, for a time. After a while though, I'd found that while the small incremental advantages were generally speaking allowing me to win more often, the time I spent on it wasn't really worth it regardless; since the experience was actually more entertaining the less chance of a mathematically decisive victory there was. In other words, the better games are the close ones, not the ones where you rofl-stomp your opponent (in my experience).

So from my perspective? Try and fit in to the points you agreed on, and 'under' is better than 'over'. If you don't? let your opponent know and accept their solution.(which will for the most part be 'no worries dude' or something else reasonable) That is all anyone need do I think.

If someone complains and is adamant about fielding an over budget list, you can bet its because they want their list to be "better" than if they go under or equal. This means they're looking at the game from a competitive point of view and hence can be considered cheating.

Having a point limit is part of the challenge of playing. Remind your friend of this. And it is also a respect thing between players to follow the rules when it comes to this.

I have let players play 1-10 points over. That's about it. After that they are just taking advantage.

Could you add something to your list to meet his points?



Take a look at his list. See if your friend would like help with his list building. Maybe you could find something that doesn't work for him in his army and he could adjust his list from that. Or post it on Dakka and we all could take a look and help out.

In my local gaming we tend to use the rule of thumb as follows.

Does the overspend get you something extra so exmple

1500 points and they spend and extra 8 on an eldar guardian (1508) not allowed

But say it went to 1504 with the guardian acceptable. if you are at 1500 spending 4-5 points on an extra equipment not acceptable. I think 1505 at 1500 is acceptable for casual gaming as long as the whole point value doesn't get you something new.

However if some were to say to me can i play 1535 and you can add 35 points i am completely okay with this they may just have to accept you take a squad in a non valid format eg a squad of 3-4 instead of 5 etc. Give and take for casual play imo.

A fair way to do it, so the player understands what they are attempting to do to the scheme of the game, is ask for the same points allowance they got over their final total.

Person A: 'Hey, I know we talked about 1500 points, but I couldn't build a good list without going over. I'm at 1512."

Person B: "Okay, then I'll match that unknown points overage with one of my own and add models/upgrades to go up to 1524 and we'll be solid, right?"

If they complain, they have only themselves to blame as that is the exact same situation they put you in without regard for implications. If they don't complain, game on!

I use to play in a campaign using the map tiles, our army lists were based on how much resources we control (number and type of tiles), and who we shared borders with (enemies meant more forces available, friends meant less forces required). In a match up versus Daemons, for example, my GK list had an extra 220pts over force limit (1500pts for that match). This was 3rd Ed Daemonhunters versus 5th Ed WD Daemons (pre-GK codex). Those 220pts I could have taken legally over the limit was literally another unit of GKT or PAGK or all the anti-daemon wargear no one took in competitive lists. Those 220pts allowed me to list tailor so I could table my opponent without losing a single model.

It felt unright, like I was give permission to abuse a child (my opponent was in his late 20's, while I was in my early 30's at the time). So instead of taking another unit, or extra wargear, we just played at the limit, had an awesome game, both lost models on each side, and in the end, we both had fun. I won the match, and kept the tile that was bring invaded by Daemons. Yet the fight was not tainted by my using more points than my opponent, despite being legally able to field more points than he did.

So, does few points difference feel good when you win with more points than your opponent? I know losing against the odds feels less fair to me than winning against the odds does, which is why my standard is to be at or under, never over.

SJ

Published rules are made for a reason: everyone knows what to expect and what to do.

0 points over the limit, you can always remove models until under.

I would love to get a few extra free models into a squad, may make the difference for that 25% loss of squad = do not do it.

A close loss to your opponent would make them think you might not have won if not for that extra stuff you added past the limit.

My regular gaming buddy and I have hardly EVER gone over the agreed points limit, and with good reason. Our house rule states that if you absolutely must bring an unwieldy and bloated army list (but never more than the cost of a removable upgrade), then your opponent gains a re-roll to either the Deployment Zone or First Turn roll. That keeps us 'honest'.

That said, I simply can't conceive of any of my friends turning up 35pts over the limit..."I couldn't afford to give these guys a transport, do you mind if I just give 'em a Rhino anyway?" Errr...

How about this house rule: For every full 5pts over an agreed limit, your opponent gets a 'free' re-roll to be taken at any point during the game? That should cure 'points creep' pretty swiftly.