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You're lucky I even bothered to think one up for a game at all, let alone one which is at or below the limit.

Lol Wut?

We still have the people who are all for ignoring points limits virtually fighting to the death to defend their right to break the rules clutching desperately at every straw the strawman has in his body and every excuse and justification they can possibly manufacture to tell use why it is such a good thing to ignore the limits and actual rules in the rulebook.
Yet every time, they are confronted with the simple question of why they are so adamant that following the rules, treating the other player with respect and following the spirit of the game is a bad thing (especially when following the rules is actually easier), they gloss over that question. I wonder why that is? Hmmmmmmm.

Game: a physical or mental activity or contest that has rules and that people do for pleasure.

We agree on rules that form the framework for the "contest" if rules are ignored by one party, it is no longer a game.

The difficulty is if people do not follow rules and worst still, not tell me, it is a form of disrespect: why do rules apply to me but not to you?

You decide you are entitled to your extra five points? I bloody well want my 5 points too!

This forum has convinced me I am entitled to one extra pawn in chess; it is only a pawn...

I think the difference as I said is how many points and what you can drop to get under. In all my prior years playing Fantasy and 40k I only had one person who was an ass about points even 1 or 2 points over, and they weren't a good person to play against anyways and would cheese everything they could.

 Forcast wrote:

You're lucky I even bothered to think one up for a game at all, let alone one which is at or below the limit.

Lol Wut?

He's too busy arguing with people on this thread to come up with a legal list. Don't judge him...

WayneTheGame wrote:
I think the difference as I said is how many points and what you can drop to get under. In all my prior years playing Fantasy and 40k I only had one person who was an ass about points even 1 or 2 points over, and they weren't a good person to play against anyways and would cheese everything they could.

Sounds like anything but complete and unquestioning 'acceptance' of your going over is going to be labeled 'an ass' by you. And tolerance of it doesn't mean people are happy or accepting of it. And how many of those people walked away and said 'That person was an ass for asking to go over the limit and wasn't a good person to play against and was cheesing everything they could'.

Boils down to 'if I don't get my way, you are TFG.'

it is much more reasonable to just follow the rules and not burden your opponent or start off a social event with a rude action from the get go.

 Voidwraith wrote:

 Forcast wrote:

You're lucky I even bothered to think one up for a game at all, let alone one which is at or below the limit.

Lol Wut?

He's too busy arguing with people on this thread to come up with a legal list. Don't judge him...

My bad, I forgot how much of a privilege it is to play a game with him, where are my manners.

I'm amazed such a simple topic like this creates such controversy for some people.

I don't play tournaments, but our group of friends has always had a longstanding rule about point values which has always worked for us in the past.

If your point value is over the point limit by more than the cost of one of the basic troops in your army, you need to trim it down until it's no longer above that level.

So for example, with Orks your basic Ork is 6 points. If I'm running at 1510, I can take an Ork away from that, and trim it down to 1504, which would be acceptable. If I'm playing Space Marines, your basic Space Marine is 14 points. So you can keep your 1510. Even at 1510 though, usually someone in our group of friends would remove a piece of wargear or something to bring it back down to 1500.

Obviously we're all buddies and we don't use this to exploit each other.

Murrdox wrote:
I'm amazed such a simple topic like this creates such controversy for some people.

I don't play tournaments, but our group of friends has always had a longstanding rule about point values which has always worked for us in the past.

If your point value is over the point limit by more than the cost of one of the basic troops in your army, you need to trim it down until it's no longer above that level.

So for example, with Orks your basic Ork is 6 points. If I'm running at 1510, I can take an Ork away from that, and trim it down to 1504, which would be acceptable. If I'm playing Space Marines, your basic Space Marine is 14 points. So you can keep your 1510. Even at 1510 though, usually someone in our group of friends would remove a piece of wargear or something to bring it back down to 1500.

Obviously we're all buddies and we don't use this to exploit each other.

Thats perfectly fine. Your small tight knit group has that arrangement as part of your normal game set up. Where it is understood and agreed upon by all members equally. Now, we have the others here who are not proposing any sort of premade agreements such as that where they feel the desire to go to any game, anywhere, at any time as far above the points level as they please and coerce the opponents, TO, whoever, to let them.
I am sure, that when you or other members of your group go outside of the group to play strangers or participate in a tourney, you are much more careful and just stick to te agreed upon (or tourney mandated) limit to begin with. The others here feel that it is somehow a BAD thing to follow the rules and that allowing them to break them is somehow mandated as a requirement to play the game.

Pretty much. If I showed up to a friendly game at a FLGS and the guy I was playing had 1520 or even 1515, I'd sort of raise an eyebrow and casually suggest that he remove a piece of wargear from something, unless I was already planning on asking permission to run a 1510 list or something like that.

If you agree to play 1500 then you play 1500 or under. 1 point could mean a war scythe or a landraider.

Farseer Pef wrote:
I believe this belongs in YMDC. This is a HYWPI question.

The scenario: About to play a 1500 point game with a friend. He says his list is 1535 points. I ask him to trim it down a bit since 35 points over can be a few models. He gets upset by this.

The question: What sort of overspending limits do you play with? How would you handle it if your opponent was over or asked you to trim your list? Being that I have no tournament experience, how do tournaments handle it?

Appreciate any feedback (and hope it remains civil ).

35 points is WAY over the limit of your agreed to points. I generally always try to keep my list as close to the agreed point value as possible.

For me, personally, if it is within 10 points or so i'm ok with it. But damn, 35 points is WAY too much. I agree with most saying that you can just upgrade your list to that level, or ask him to trim. Whatever works for you and your opponent that limits drama and gets the game started. Still, it's bad manners to do that to agreed to points. 35 points is not a small discrepancy. It's something they wanted to fit in and didn't bother to make the cuts needed. 35 points for me (Tau) is a M3S and a CnC (ignore cover and re-roll misses). An almost extra piranha. ten points shy of Longstrike. 3 extra drones, 4 firewarriors, 7 kroot...you get the idea.

 Selym wrote:
And not everybody can be bothered to waste all day trying to perfect a list.

So? We're asking for a legal list, not a perfect list. And unless you're going to abandon the whole "it's just casual and I can't bother to make a perfect list" thing making a legal list shouldn't take any longer than making an illegal list. It only takes more time if you care so much about winning that you need a perfect optimized legal list and won't cut anything that hurts your chances of winning.

You're lucky I even bothered to think one up for a game at all, let alone one which is at or below the limit.

Seriously? You really expect your opponents to be so thankful for the chance to play you (a privilege of rather questionable value given your attitude here) that they should let you cheat just to keep you happy? What's next, insisting that you get to re-roll failed armor saves because your opponent should be thankful that you bothered to roll those saves at all?

If your opponent is struggling to make a list, or is bad with math and or numbers, a really handy list builder called "Battlescribe" is a pretty much must have for list making. I use it on my computer and iphone to come up with lists on the daily. It's extremely handy. It even has a print out feature so you can print out the list + any relevant rules and where to find them in the BRB!

Just felt like offering my two cents:

I play Dark Angels. I play mostly Ravenwing when I want to win, because I feel like it's our best option. However, someone at GW is bad at math and made it more expensive to add 3 bikers to a squad than to simply take another squad of 3 guys.

Frequently, my lists come out to "1501" or "1752", or basically lots of things with 1 or 2 at the end depending on how many complete ravenwing squads I field. If there was no Force Organization limit, or I wasn't forced into bringing 3 extra dudes in order to also bring a landspeeder with them, this wouldn't really be an issue as I'd just jam dudes into another troops slot, but it frequently ends up being a limiting factor.

So, I always tell people this before the game. I've had some that won't let me do it, but the vast majority of people are totally okay with that one or two extra points floating around because I'm able to explain where it comes from and why it exists.

Because of this, my friends I play with and I have basically made it a hard rule you have 4 floating points over in any given list, because the only way you're going to be over by less than 5 is due to someone at GW sucking at math. The reason we don't go 5 or more beyond is because that's always another melta bomb. It's another potential piece of wargear, which is always potentially game-changing.

SRSFACE wrote:
Frequently, my lists come out to "1501" or "1752", or basically lots of things with 1 or 2 at the end depending on how many complete ravenwing squads I field. If there was no Force Organization limit, or I wasn't forced into bringing 3 extra dudes in order to also bring a landspeeder with them, this wouldn't really be an issue as I'd just jam dudes into another troops slot, but it frequently ends up being a limiting factor.

How is this any different than my list being 70 points over because I wanted to take six melta guns (instead of just three) in my IG veteran squad and the only way to do it was to add a whole additional veteran squad? Or being 5 points over because my plasma gun costs 5 points more than it should in my opinion? The fact that everything doesn't cost exactly what you want it to for your perfect list doesn't mean you get to cheat to bring that perfect list anyway.

And the simple fact here is that you could just as easily play 1496 or 1747 point lists by dropping a 5-point upgrade somewhere else to make your bikes work.

Because of this, my friends I play with and I have basically made it a hard rule you have 4 floating points over in any given list, because the only way you're going to be over by less than 5 is due to someone at GW sucking at math.

Since when is "my upgrades aren't all done in 5-point increments" the same as "GW sucking at math". If an upgrade is worth 4 points, costs 4 points, and you only take one of them (and no other "uneven" upgrades) then yes, your list will not get exactly to an "even" point limit. But I fail to see how this is a case of GW sucking at math, or why you should be allowed to cheat just to take all of the upgrades you want to take.

For a friendly game I don't care if they have 1535 I'll just add 35pts to my list. Only in competitive play would I give a care.
.

 Forcast wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:

 Forcast wrote:

You're lucky I even bothered to think one up for a game at all, let alone one which is at or below the limit.

Lol Wut?

He's too busy arguing with people on this thread to come up with a legal list. Don't judge him...

My bad, I forgot how much of a privilege it is to play a game with him, where are my manners.

Just be grateful He deigned you worthy of continued existence and even graced you with His presence.

Point limits are for lesser men.

Thanks for being TFG and calling me a cheater, Peregrine. Welcome to my ignore list. I didn't think I'd have to add someone to it this fast, but I guess the internet never ceases to amaze me.

Last I checked, this was a "What would you do?" style thread, and I simply offered my 2 cents about how we handle it in my area. There's no reason to be a dick about it.

The reason I say "GW sucks at math" is because it's not an upgrade I'm talking about. Upgrades are one thing, spending points on men is another. If 3 bikers costs 80 points, another 3 bikers should cost 80 points, not 81 points. If they wanted every last biker to be 27 points, make the initial cost of the squad 81 points. I would have no problem with that. Disagree if you want. That's fine. However, I have only ever presented this as a personal How-I-Think-It-Should-Be thought process.

I also said I always check with my opponent first. Always. Without question. Even a single point, I am not going to cheat the guy I'm playing of out of the knowledge that's the case because that's rude and unsporting. If my opponent has an issue with it, I will straight up remove an entire Land Speeder or something if I have to and just totally gimp myself out of a sizable chunk of points, because I'm generally pretty easy going.

I will also add I'd never deem to bring up this point of view in a tournament setting. Our little store had an 1850 tournament a couple of months ago and because I kept running into the issue of my biker units throwing off my unit making so I ended up just making a different list out-right.

But seriously, though, you should be ashamed of yourself for calling me a cheater for presenting a point of view you disagree with. Seriously, dude. That is shameful. Grow up.

SRSFACE wrote:
If they wanted every last biker to be 27 points, make the initial cost of the squad 81 points. I would have no problem with that.

So let me get this straight: GW lowered the price on the initial squad from 81 points to 80 points, and because the initial squad is cheaper you need extra points to make up for it? That doesn't make any sense at all. There's no connection between having a cheaper initial squad and having to play 1501 points in a 1500 point game.

I also said I always check with my opponent first.

The problem is that this "checking" often goes along with an assumption that you're being rude if you "take the game too seriously" and force your opponent to change their list. And so people who don't really like the idea of the extra points will agree to it just to avoid having an awkward confrontation. What you should be doing if you consider yourself a fair player with good sportsmanship is just building a legal list and avoiding the issue entirely.

But seriously, though, you should be ashamed of yourself for calling me a cheater for presenting a point of view you disagree with.

Sorry, but that's just how it is. Playing a 1501 point list in a 1500 point game is cheating, just like moving your models an extra 1" to get them into range.

I am just going to post this here, from the sticky thread:

"5. Stick to discussing the rules, not the poster. Phrases like "Rules Lawyer", "Cheater" and "TFG" have no place in rules discussions. Don't depart from rules discussions by attaching value judgments to different interpretations. "

I did wrong by responding the way I did earlier, but in my own defense, I was called a cheater first, simply for offering my opinion on the topic at hand.

And now to not forget to click the ignore button before logging off. Because just wow. At least I know DakkaDakka is a place where you're not allowed to have opinions without being called a cheat. Thanks for letting a new guy know that sooner rather than later.

I'm just going to post this here, from a PM titled "you are literally the worst kind of person" sent to me by SRSFACE, just in case anyone was tempted to have sympathy for them:

People like you are why the hobby is dying. How dare you attack me. How fething dare you.

So, apparently expecting people to follow the rules is TFG behavior, but sending someone a PM full of verbal abuse is just polite discussion.

As for this:

At least I know DakkaDakka is a place where you're not allowed to have opinions without being called a cheat.

Nobody called anyone a cheat for having an opinion. Having an opinion is not the same thing as taking a 1501 point list in a 1500 point game. One is a personal opinion, the other is a deliberate violation of the rules for personal gain, just like if you moved your models 7" instead of 6" so you could get into shooting range. There's no debate over what the rules say, just the simple act of violating them.

 Selym wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

It's happened to you plenty of times that you failed to prepare for something you knew about well in advance and you expected - or demanded - for the person you made plans with to just be okay with your procrastination?
You don't consider that rude?

I'm not asking to be insulting - did you also do a lot of last minute papers in school?

I have never demanded anything of the other player. That is an assumption you have made yourself,
And yes, I've had some preparation failures, as have you, most probably.

And when I fail to prepare I never expect the person whom I've failed to give me any slack. Ever. Failing to prepare and then having an illegal list is simply rude

By "Happened to me" I meant receiving a last minute gift. The way you're reacting makes it seem like you're the kind of person who would receive such a gift, and then get angry at the giver for not having had the time to get you a better one.

If they actually say "I didn't have time to wrap it." I'd know that was a lie. They had time - they chose to do other things. Simple fact.

At this point, you sound like a TFG.

I'm sorry you think so. There's no reason to think so.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

And on that subject, these things are a privilege not a right. (Presents and points limits). Just be thankful that either exist at all.

Yes, they're a privilege. (Although points would be debated) a privilege that carries certain social obligations - that if you know about something in advance, you prepare yourself for it.

Actually, privileges rarely need to have social implications. There are entire religions that do not give presents on birthdays. Even I find the concept of a birthday somewhat strange.

And yet - if you're participating in a custom, you think it's okay for you to do a half ass job because you couldn't be bothered to be polite?

And not everybody can be bothered to waste all day trying to perfect a list. You're lucky I even bothered to think one up for a game at all, let alone one which is at or below the limit.

... The game in which you pre-arranged and I'm lucky you have a list?
And that's a polite statement in your mind?

While I think that going over the limit by few points now and then isn't a big deal, it becomes somewhat less fine if it is the same person constantly doing it, especially with the exact same list. A random list you just made up, or an experimental list with new units you just had no time to polish being few points over? That's fine. A list you've been playing months and it still is over the limit? Not so much.

 Peregrine wrote:
I'm just going to post this here, from a PM titled "you are literally the worst kind of person" sent to me by SRSFACE, just in case anyone was tempted to have sympathy for them:

People like you are why the hobby is dying. How dare you attack me. How fething dare you.

So, apparently expecting people to follow the rules is TFG behavior, but sending someone a PM full of verbal abuse is just polite discussion.

As for this:

At least I know DakkaDakka is a place where you're not allowed to have opinions without being called a cheat.

Nobody called anyone a cheat for having an opinion. Having an opinion is not the same thing as taking a 1501 point list in a 1500 point game. One is a personal opinion, the other is a deliberate violation of the rules for personal gain, just like if you moved your models 7" instead of 6" so you could get into shooting range. There's no debate over what the rules say, just the simple act of violating them.

He has a huge point on the first part...

rigeld2 wrote:

... The game in which you pre-arranged and I'm lucky you have a list?

Firstly, I just want to say you make a lot of good points. I just wanted to touch on this one thing.

It might not seem like it to you, but, yes in fact you are lucky the other guy has a list. I read awhile ago a great article about the 3 resources in gaming, in general. It applies to Warhammer, Magic the Gathering, Dota 2, and even sports. I think I actually read it on the Daily MTG blog like a year ago, but I can't seem to track it down so I apologize this will all simply be interpreted through what I took out of it.

The 3 great resources are time, money, and players. It's assume if you're playing 40k, you have the time and money to invest. That means the greatest and most treasured resource we as players have to cultivate in order to keep our particular game of choice alive is other players. The article was relating it all back to Magic the Gathering terms talking about deck types in multiplayer matches, and how building some unbeatable deck for casual play with friends is a great way to kill the desire of anyone from wanting to ever play with you anymore.

It applies double fold into 40k, if you ask me. The monetary investment into the game is pretty steep and keeps the player base relatively low, and the time it takes to assemble and ready an army to bring is also pretty steep, limiting the players even more. Finding people to play against IS the biggest challenge of the hobby, for quite a large number of people. Would you rather simply have no one to play against, or a guy who built a list that's a single point or two over because some of the math in building army lists is wonky?

What people find rude differs from person to person. I personally think it's more rude to flip your lid and call someone a cheater for being a single point over due to bad math at GW than it is for someone to be a little sloppy with list building. If they are notorious for intentionally trying to job people through twisting rules wording to their advantage, then that's one thing, but I guess I'm the type who'd rather give someone the benefit of the doubt.

It is good that you mention players as being one ofthe few commodities needed in order to play 40k.
Just as it might be a great way to lose opponents by "flipping your lid" which actually, not a single person has done in this thread yet on the side of politely asking people to follow the rules.

It is ALSO a great way to lose opponents by not following the rules. There have been a few points brought up throughout, I will remind you of...
1. Different gaming groups come up with house rules to address the issue. These house rules, may be used at a particular shop, but VERY rarely as shops stick to RAW to keep it easier for them and to make playing and buying there more welcoming and easy. The house rules are usually done at "home" in small tight knit gaming groups. Often, these groups will play at a shop and use their house rules when playing each other there as well. This is perfectly ok and not considered cheating as it is an understood addition to the rules that is understood and agreed on by all members beforehand. Some of them I have seen are actually quite good and I will introduce them to my buddies if the need arises. It needs to be remembered that these ARE house rules and are no way enforceable outside of that group as they have no actual basis in the rules themselves.

Where you run into problems with this is is when you play someone outside of that tight knit group or tourney. The outsider will have no knowledge of your groups understanding and will have a lit that is spot on. When you show up 5 or 35 points over because without buying an upgrade you cant get your land speeder you like to use or because you think a plasma gun is more effective than a melta gun or whatever, it is indeed rude to assume that they will be ok with it. You may disagree with me on this but this is something I wont budge on, it IS rude. Telling them to just pop on a few points forces him to just add on some useless upgrade that has no effect on the game at all while your own gives your entire army a whole different dynamic.This does indeed put the other players on the spot where they either let you do it, or just pop on something useless which equates to just letting you do it or ask you to field a legal list (going above the points limit is indeed a form of cheating just as moving your models aboe the movement limit is a form of cheating or putting an extra ace in a deck of cards is a form of cheating), knowing that if they ask you to field a legal list, they will be the ones branded as TFG by the peron who is actually exhibiting the behavior of one. So what you end up with is a "situation" Often the player honestly doesnt care but MUCH more often than you think, they DO care but let you anyway to avoid a hassle. this makes them notwant to play you and you are actually getting rid of the resource known as players for yourself.

2.List building- You know, this is something I actually enjoy doing. Not because I crunch numbers to calculate exact likelihoods of rolling hits and woulnd of units with different weapons and all that crap. I leave the mathhammer to those who cant use tactics and dont want to actually have fun. I'm talking about building lists with themes and using different units that I THINK will dowell or because I think they are cool and so forth. it is something I can do by myself if I ambored
It is also fun to work on this with yourbuddies when you dont have the time or arent playing (being 6'11", sometimes, my back will have me in serious pain after a game and I'm just not up for a 2nd one). You can discuss with them the pros and cons of differet units and how they look together, how particuler models usually fare (I can NEVER kll that vampire, you oughtta make it a special character and name it, as one of my buddies used to tell me in fantasy) and so on and so forth. In this way, you can fill a notebook to the point of bursting with army lists for a variety of points levels where you have all the time in the world with no hurry to finagle to to maximum effectiveness at the exact point limit without going over (this actually helps you become a more effective player as well).. To be honest, this could even give your gaming group a new variation of the game known as surprise. Say for example you have 20 lists made up for 1500 points and your opponent does too, you can stack them on the table and each roll a D20. After seeing the results, you count down sheets till you get to the number and thats the list you use..

3. It boils down to a few things. A. The rules. When playing a stranger, sticking with them just makes it easier. B. the spirit of the game. Knowingly going above the limit is just rude when playing strangers and starts the game off on the wrong foot and can ruin a gaming experience. C. by sticking to the rules and being polite, you are FAR more likely to get a 2nd game from that stranger if the occasion arrises again.

SRSFACE wrote:
What people find rude differs from person to person. I personally think it's more rude to flip your lid and call someone a cheater for being a single point over due to bad math at GW...

Er... what?

Did someone at GW write your army list?

SRSFACE wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

... The game in which you pre-arranged and I'm lucky you have a list?

Firstly, I just want to say you make a lot of good points. I just wanted to touch on this one thing.

It might not seem like it to you, but, yes in fact you are lucky the other guy has a list. I read awhile ago a great article about the 3 resources in gaming, in general. It applies to Warhammer, Magic the Gathering, Dota 2, and even sports. I think I actually read it on the Daily MTG blog like a year ago, but I can't seem to track it down so I apologize this will all simply be interpreted through what I took out of it.

The 3 great resources are time, money, and players. It's assume if you're playing 40k, you have the time and money to invest. That means the greatest and most treasured resource we as players have to cultivate in order to keep our particular game of choice alive is other players. The article was relating it all back to Magic the Gathering terms talking about deck types in multiplayer matches, and how building some unbeatable deck for casual play with friends is a great way to kill the desire of anyone from wanting to ever play with you anymore.

It applies double fold into 40k, if you ask me. The monetary investment into the game is pretty steep and keeps the player base relatively low, and the time it takes to assemble and ready an army to bring is also pretty steep, limiting the players even more. Finding people to play against IS the biggest challenge of the hobby, for quite a large number of people. Would you rather simply have no one to play against, or a guy who built a list that's a single point or two over because some of the math in building army lists is wonky?

What people find rude differs from person to person. I personally think it's more rude to flip your lid and call someone a cheater for being a single point over due to bad math at GW than it is for someone to be a little sloppy with list building. If they are notorious for intentionally trying to job people through twisting rules wording to their advantage, then that's one thing, but I guess I'm the type who'd rather give someone the benefit of the doubt.

I find myself giving quad exalts to your posts, SRSFACE. Thank you

tournaments.

extra points aren't allowed, simple as. so when we have tournaments we always add 5 points onto our total, i.e. never 1500 but always 1505.

casual
I just stick some extra stuff on if he is over, after all its an agreed points limit so providing both players can reach that limit im fine,

had a chaos player who lacked the correct models to field 1500 point army so played 1363 in a 1505 point tournament, without fail everyone who played him knocked a squad off there list to keep it fair