Cypher's infiltrate and Centurions

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**Tiger9gamer**

So I have someone on B&C that is saying you can't infiltrate Cypher with another unit, in this case Centurions. Can you actually infiltrate separate units with an independent character like Cypher? I want to use him to get them into a good position to rain some hell down on the enemy.

This is his post:

Spoiler:

**grendel083**

That post is correct.
Can't be done.

**djdarknoise**

But you can run Huron, Cypher, and 20 MoK CSM marines and infiltrate them all.

**Slayer le boucher**

Wait, doesn't it need only one model with the Infiltrate rule, to give it to the squad?

i know that a IC that doesn't have Infiltrate, can't join a unit who have it.

But here its the IC who have the Infiltrate rule, so he can give it to the rest of the unit.

And being an IC, when you make your deployement you decide wich unit the IC joins...

So i really don't get why you say He can't join them and give them Infiltrate...

**CrownAxe**

Slayer le boucher wrote:
Wait, doesn't it need only one model with the Infiltrate rule, to give it to the squad?

i know that a IC that doesn't have Infiltrate, can't join a unit who have it.

But here its the IC who have the Infiltrate rule, so he can give it to the rest of the unit.

And being an IC, when you make your deployement you decide wich unit the IC joins...

So i really don't get why you say He can't join them and give them Infiltrate...

The problem is to join an IC to a unit it has to be deployed with that unit. But since the unit doesn't have infiltrate it can only be deployed normally (which happens before deploying infiltrators). To join an IC to that unit it too must also deploy with it before infiltrators. But now both the unit and the IC are deployed normally on the table so you can't go back a redeploy as infiltrators

**Frozen Ocean**

Because they are deployed before he is on the board, and he Infiltrates onto the board after deployment is done. The Centurions never have an opportunity to join Cypher before he Infiltrates (unless he decides not to do so).

Otherwise you could just infiltrate anything.

**Slayer le boucher**

..Mmh i was under the impression that you would join the IC and squad on your list, thus making them Joined before deploying.

Ot maybe its just a common way to do things, for sakes of clarity...

**Frozen Ocean**

Nah. An IC joins a squad simply by being in unit coherency with them. Depending on the layout of a list (not if it's laid out in sections of HQ/Troop/Elite and so on), squads that are intended to be joined by a specific IC will be marked as such.

**CrownAxe**

Slayer le boucher wrote:
..Mmh i was under the impression that you would join the IC and squad on your list, thus making them Joined before deploying.

Ot maybe its just a common way to do things, for sakes of clarity...

Never seen anyone do this, namely because you may change how you join your ICs depending on your opponent's army and deployment

**Slayer le boucher**

Yeah, my process of though was like when you buy options that changes things in your FoC, like bikers in troopes or Zerks in troops, or Cultists has Zombies etc, its something that is made at the army list creation.

While a IC joining a squad is made when deploying...

But then...He can still join a unit and come in in Outflank no?

I mean if the unit can't use the infiltrate because its allready on the table, and the IC can't join them and use Infiltrate because he must be deployed last if you use Infiltrate.

You can decode to not put them on the table, keep them in reserve and decide to use them with Outflank no?

CrownAxe wrote:
Slayer le boucher wrote:
..Mmh i was under the impression that you would join the IC and squad on your list, thus making them Joined before deploying.

Ot maybe its just a common way to do things, for sakes of clarity...

Never seen anyone do this, namely because you may change how you join your ICs depending on your opponent's army and deployment

Depends of the groupes and regions i guess, we usually note on the army list wich IC goes with wich unit, because no matter what, we know what they can do, and how to use them.

in my case Kharn always goes with Chosens or sometimes Zerkers, but thats it.

**CrownAxe**

Slayer le boucher wrote:
Yeah, my process of though was like when you buy options that changes things in your FoC, like bikers in troopes or Zerks in troops, or Cultists has Zombies etc, its something that is made at the army list creation.

While a IC joining a squad is made when deploying...

But then...He can still join a unit and come in in Outflank no?

I mean if the unit can't use the infiltrate because its allready on the table, and the IC can't join them and use Infiltrate because he must be deployed last if you use Infiltrate.

You can decode to not put them on the table, keep them in reserve and decide to use them with Outflank no?

Since you can go in reserves normally, you can just join the unit in reserves.

Again the only reason you can't do it with infiltration is because its specifically done after regular deployment and reserves and you need that special rule to be able to be deployed in that "second deployment"

**Lord Krungharr**

Yes, Cypher could make a unit Outflank with him, just not straight up Infiltrate. So in that respect, it may be better to join him to a shooty unit that can fire full-force after moving. I don't have the Dataslate so I'm unsure what Cypher can join (sure would love to know if he can join Chaos Marines though

**Slayer le boucher**

Every Imperial army, exception for DA's and he can join CSM.

Funny thing is that if you take him has a Non-HQ choice, he is a full part of the army, and thus can benefit from rules that only applies to that codex friendly units, or even go in their transports.

Something i've been wondering.

So Cypher can't join a squad when you want to use infiltrate, but if you decide to not infiltrate him, can he still join a unit?, and also join a unit with a IV that doesn't have Infiltrate.

i was planning to take him and make him join Kharn+ his Chosen bodyguards, to give them Shrouded and Hit & Run, with a 8Init H&R would be a piece of cake, and an assault each turn, with 3 Plasma shots(kharn+Cypher), plus the 2 meltas of my Chosens , before re-assaulting with everyone having 5 A FC and Hate, that would be fun...

Also i din't see anything saying otherwise, but if you take the Formation, Cypher can still join another squad in the army then the Chosen from the Formation?, he is still an IC after all, and there is no restriction for units coherence or something like that for Formation.

In 2.500 or 3000pts game that could be Fun...

**nosferatu1001**

You have to infiltrate, however at page 39 you can just deploy him with a normal unit, so the result is the same.

Yes, cypher is not restricted from joining, as lon as he is a BB with the unit.

**Vector Strike**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You have to infiltrate, however at page 39 you can just deploy him with a normal unit, so the result is the same.

Yes, cypher is not restricted from joining, as lon as he is a BB with the unit.

the case is, Cypher is considered to be part of the primary detachment of your army. There's no ally matrix for him - you can put him in all imperial forces (except DA) and CSM; while so, you can put him inside transports and such.

the formation with chosen is only for CSM, though; that implies ally matrix table.

**CrashCanuck**

My take is that Cypher counts as part of whatever detachment you have put him in. If he is with an IG detachment then for all intents and purposes he counts as another IG model, same for SM, etc.

**Tiger9gamer**

Maybe I should ask before playing or something. Never know who might get angry about it.

**deviantduck**

So if he is part of your army, and grants infiltrate to an attached unit, if that unit takes a dedicated transport, can that infiltrate as well?

**DJGietzen**

Vector Strike wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yes, cypher is not restricted from joining, as lon as he is a BB with the unit.

the case is, Cypher is considered to be part of the primary detachment of your army. There's no ally matrix for him - you can put him in all imperial forces (except DA) and CSM; while so, you can put him inside transports and such.
.

If you put solo cypher in a primary space marine detachment he uses the allies matrix for space marines. He will be BB with everything the space marines are BB with. If you put solo cypher in a primary chaos marine detachment he uses the allies matrix for chaos marines. He will be BB with everything the chaos marines are BB with. He is a unit choice for several codices and will be able to join an allied BB unit if an IC from his parrent codex would be allowed to.

**Kommissar Kel**

deviantduck wrote:
So if he is part of your army, and grants infiltrate to an attached unit, if that unit takes a dedicated transport, can that infiltrate as well?

Have you not been following the thread?

The Infiltrate IC(Cypher) cannot join the unit until the unit is already on table in normal deployment.

And PS: No adding an Infiltrate IC to a unit that you have already placed in reserves will not allow that unit to outflank because that unit will have already been prepared as normal reserves, when the IC joins it is too late to prepare the unit as Outflank(You prepare your reserves as you put the unit into reserves).

**PanzerLeader**

@deviant duck: If you want to use Cypher in a tournament, I'd suggest checking with the TO first. Most major tournaments are allowing infiltrate to confer from a unit to a character and vice versa through their FAQs. Good examples of this are the BAO, the LVO, and Da Boyz.

**deviantduck**

I reread it again. i guess when at work i should focus less on work when postiing a question. it all clicks now.

**Nem**

You can choose to use infiltrate with a unit that has it, but nothing says you have to use it 121

First both players deploy their forces ( apart from any units left kept in reserves or that choose to use their infiltrate special rule).

**Happyjew**

The problem is that conflicts with the Infiltrate special rule.

**insaniak**

Slayer le boucher wrote:
..Mmh i was under the impression that you would join the IC and squad on your list, thus making them Joined before deploying.

Ot maybe its just a common way to do things, for sakes of clarity...

It was legal for the last couple of years of last edition, after GW errata-ed the IC rules. For some reason they chose to not carry that change over to 6th edition.

**Nem**

Happyjew wrote:
The problem is that conflicts with the Infiltrate special rule.

The rules are a bit confused, not very clear either way I guess, I've just never seen any issues caused by people deploying normally when the have the infiltrate rule. I could come from the angle infiltrate contains no must, and does not say I can not deploy normally, while the rules for deployment say I can deploy normally, and if I choose to infiltrate use the rules on page x, which would explain why the infiltrate rules are written as such - as a choice is under the infiltrators section under deployment, at least for eternal war missions. With how they have chosen to structure this however, is a pain and not worth a merry go round.

**DJGietzen**

The counter argument there is that while Infiltrate does not say 'must' it also does not say 'may'. There is no indication that it is optional, it merely states that they are deployed last. Not HIWPI but if we want to argue RAW...

**Slayer le boucher**

What happens if you play a Mission or scenario that doesn't allow units to Infiltrate then?

It may be a case of poorly written rule and the absence of the "...may...", is just something they din't think of.

because else in the case i mentioned if you have units with infiltration rule, you can't play them at all?

**Wagguy80**

Hmm does that mean a unit put into normal reserves cannot join a unit placed in outflank?

Because if I'm reading this right it means people can no longer put Ghazgull thraka with a unit of commando's with Snikrot and outflank.

**whembly**

Wagguy80 wrote:
Hmm does that mean a unit put into normal reserves cannot join a unit placed in outflank?

Because if I'm reading this right it means people can no longer put Ghazgull thraka with a unit of commando's with Snikrot and outflank.

Snikrot's ability is different than infiltrate. He has his own rule called "Ambush", so yes, you can still do that. It's not a great tactic in 6ed since you're forbidden from assaulting on the same turn you arrive.