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No, you have not Hit the shield with an attack that causes 9 Hits. Do not apply other rules here. You have hit the unit with 9 Hits, Agreed. The Special rule transfers the attack to the shield. Now You resolve that attack to the shield.

Now, you will say "But how can i resolve an attack with a template, that is usually: Step 1-Count hits- and Step 2-Armour Pen- with my template?"
Well i have clearly told you the RaW says "Step 1-you have hit-" Now please go to step 2-Armour Pen-
In essence you SKIP step 1 of the hits. Why? Because you have already counted up hits on your target Unit

The underlined is correct and is why the shield takes 9 hits. So we have 2 attacks that do multiple hits and you have posted exactly zero rules as to why we treat them differently.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

You Hit a Rhino with both weapons, tell me how many hits you have for each?

If i blindfold you and tell you: "I fire a Vindicator shot at a Rhino, and it Hits, play from there."
How do you resolve that?

You don't need to be shown a template or anything: You start at Step 2 where you roll dice you have for Armour Pen. This RaW is the same: It tells you that you have hit the shield, work from there. If you can prove this is wrong, please do so?

The Rhino is a model, it also a unit of one model. So by that example the blast does NO hits. You have hit the shield the shield with an attack that causes 9 hits how many hits are transfered to the shield?

No, you have not Hit the shield with an attack that causes 9 Hits. Do not apply other rules here. You have hit the unit with 9 Hits, Agreed. The Special rule transfers the attack to the shield. Now You resolve that attack to the shield.

Now, you will say "But how can i resolve an attack with a template, that is usually: Step 1-Count hits- and Step 2-Armour Pen- with my template?"
Well i have clearly told you the RaW says "Step 1-you have hit-" Now please go to step 2-Armour Pen-
In essence you SKIP step 1 of the hits. Why? Because you have already counted up hits on your target Unit

I get what you're saying.
The number of models under the template is irrelevent. The hits have been counted, now the attack is transfered.
The next part is where this logic fails.

You're saying one hit is scored against the shield. Why?
Where does one come from?
You're saying the number of hits caused by the template doesn't matter, so by this logic the attack is transfered with an unknown number of hits. Not one.
One hit is entirely made up and not supported by the rule.

It either transfers all hits caused by the template, or it hits with an unknown number and the game breaks.
One hit, does not fit the rules.

 grendel083 wrote:
So you'll take multiple hits from a single attack from an assault 20 weapon, but not from a blast?
That's inconsistent with the actual rules.
Transferring 1 hit from a blast follows no rule at all.

You're right, they should be the same. so the one shooting attack from an assault 20 weapon hits the shields once as well

 grendel083 wrote:
You're saying one hit is scored against the shield. Why?
Where does one come from?
You're saying the number of hits caused by the template doesn't matter, so by this logic the attack is transfered with an unknown number of hits. Not one.
One hit is entirely made up and not supported by the rule.

It either transfers all hits caused by the template, or it hits with an unknown number and the game breaks.
One hit, does not fit the rules.

Because the attack is 1 Shot. An Assault 20 weapon is 20 shots, a rapid firing Bolter is 2 Shots.
A heavy Flamer is 1 Shot
If you have a Heavy 3, Large Blast, it would cover 40 models, but be 3 Shots. 3 Shields could go down.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
So you'll take multiple hits from a single attack from an assault 20 weapon, but not from a blast?
That's inconsistent with the actual rules.
Transferring 1 hit from a blast follows no rule at all.

You're right, they should be the same. so the one shooting attack from an assault 20 weapon hits the shields once as well

At least that is an internally consistent interpretation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Because the attack is 1 Shot. An Assault 20 weapon is 20 shots, a rapid firing Bolter is 2 Shots.

Then please quote the rule that states the hits on a void shield are related to the number of shots.

Also how would you handle a Tesla shot that rolled a 6 to hit. It is 1 shot that causes 3 hits.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Because the attack is 1 Shot.

Irrelevent. One shot can be multiple hits. One shot does not mean one hit. You cannot determin how many hits the shield takes.

An Assault 20 weapon is 20 shots, a rapid firing Bolter is 2 Shots.

Correct. And the number of hits can easily be determined. One attack, several shots, multiple hits.

A heavy Flamer is 1 Shot

Again irrelevent. How many hits?

If you have a Heavy 3, Large Blast, it would cover 40 models, but be 3 Shots. 3 Shields could go down.

Wrong. See above.

I'm a bit confused to where one has come from. If I make a shooting attack, and my weapon can fire 20 times, I am not making 20 Shooting attacks. It's one attack, which potentially hits 20 times, nothing is limiting VSG to only taking one attack or one hit. o.0 Unless I'm reading a different VSG rule.

Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield.

So you hit a unit of 5 Orks (for arguments sake)...
-The blast is placed and hits are calculated at 4 - the shooting attack has 4 hits.
- Now VSG steps in.
- VS takes the hits from the shooting attack (which is 4)

Nothing says one hit. Nothing says one attack, nothing says anything about ignoring blasts or anything, its not even suggested or hinted that it might. Nothing say you auto hit. Nothing in those rules tell you how many times you hit. Those are all part of weapon rules. I mean, it hasn't even hit the target and able to step in until the blast hits are calculated, it has to hit the target to then be transferred to the VS.

A hit is required in order to roll for armour pen.
Shots are irrelevent.
If you can't determin the number of hits, you can't roll any penetration rolls.
BlackTalos' interpretaion has no way to determine the number of hits caused by a blast weapon. Saying one is a completely made up number.

Well obviously your 20 shots would have to score 20 Hits first, before the Rule comes in. Just as the Template has to cover at least 1 model to count as a Hit and start the Rule too.

But that 1 Template that caused X hits on the Target causes 1 Hit on the shield.
2 templates could cove 3 and 6 models respectively, you still roll 2 armour pens.

1 is not made up: It's the 1 Hit that 1 Shot can produce.

If you can ever make a Heavy 1, Large Blast weapon score 10 hits on a Rhino carrying 10 models, please let me know?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nem wrote:

Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield.

So you hit a unit of 5 Orks (for arguments sake)...
-The blast is placed and hits are calculated at 4 - the shooting attack has 4 hits.
- Now VSG steps in.
- VS takes the hits from the shooting attack (which is 4)
Nothing says one hit. Nothing says one attack, nothing says anything about ignoring blasts or anything, its not even suggested or hinted that it might. Nothing say you auto hit. Nothing in those rules tell you how many times you hit. Those are all part of weapon rules.

No, the shield takes the hit from the Shooting attack. The RaW says it does. That blast is 1 Shot from a weapon, so 1 hit.

1 Hit is entirely made up.
You say you're ignoring the hits generated by the template (the ONLY way to determine hits from a blast weapon I should point out), and transfering the attack.
The attack now has an unknown number of hits.
1 shot can produce more than one hit. For example blasts and tesla weapons.

Can you provide a rule saying 1 shot can produce only 1 hit? You need such a rule for your theory to be right.

So please cite the rule.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Well obviously your 20 shots would have to score 20 Hits first, before the Rule comes in. Just as the Template has to cover at least 1 model to count as a Hit and start the Rule too.

But that 1 Template that caused X hits on the Target causes 1 Hit on the shield.
2 templates could cove 3 and 6 models respectively, you still roll 2 armour pens.

1 is not made up: It's the 1 Hit that 1 Shot can produce.

If you can ever make a Heavy 1, Large Blast weapon score 10 hits on a Rhino carrying 10 models, please let me know?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nem wrote:

Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield.

So you hit a unit of 5 Orks (for arguments sake)...
-The blast is placed and hits are calculated at 4 - the shooting attack has 4 hits.
- Now VSG steps in.
- VS takes the hits from the shooting attack (which is 4)
Nothing says one hit. Nothing says one attack, nothing says anything about ignoring blasts or anything, its not even suggested or hinted that it might. Nothing say you auto hit. Nothing in those rules tell you how many times you hit. Those are all part of weapon rules.

No, the shield takes the hit from the Shooting attack. The RaW says it does. That blast is 1 Shot from a weapon, so 1 hit.

And Assault 20 weapon is still a single shooting attack. You've stated it's treated differently from blasts and yet your own statement should treat them the same.

At least be consistent.

 grendel083 wrote:
1 Hit is entirely made up.
You say you're ignoring the hits generated by the template (the ONLY way to determine hits from a blast weapon I should point out), and transfering the attack.
The attack now has an unknown number of hits.
1 shot can produce more than one hit. For example blasts and tesla weapons.

Can you provide a rule saying 1 shot can produce only 1 hit? You need such a rule for your theory to be right.

So please cite the rule.

No, I keep citing the 1 Rule that is important here: "Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."
The best example is probably indeed Tesla: Can 1 Tesla hit on 1 Target make multiple hits on a 6? Yes

If you score a 6 on a Tesla, hitting the Target inside, the "shot" gets transferred: It qualifies for generating 2 more Hits: you resolve 3 hits on the shield.

A Blast template can never generate more Hits on 1 Target, unless you can prove it to me? Same for Flamer template.

You say you're ignoring the hits generated by the template (the ONLY way to determine hits from a blast weapon I should point out), and transfering the attack.
The attack now has an unknown number of hits.

Don't write things i've never written: I have always agreed that you count the hits on the template. That's how templates work. But once you transfer it to the shield, that is 1 target (again the 1), you have 1 Hit to resolve.
You NEVER "recalculate" the hit in any way: The rule states you have hit already. How many hits? However many that weapon can produce on 1 target, say a Rhino.

If you have a weapon that can generate 5 Hits on a Rhino, it'd generate 5 on the shield.




However proving how many hits are on the shield was done many posts above. If you read the RaW and conclude you have 1 Vindicator shot Taking down 9 Shields and killing 1 Marine inside, i cannot force you to see it any other way. I have read (and quoted) the Rule many times and it's meaning is clear to me as it is to others. I will play it by the RaW that way and if we ever meet for a game, it'll have to be rolled-off


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
And Assault 20 weapon is still a single shooting attack. You've stated it's treated differently from blasts and yet your own statement should treat them the same.
At least be consistent.

I don't really get the argument? i never said anything is done differently? They are treated the same?

Where are you getting the restriction of 1 shot = 1 hit (which you are then ignoring for Tesla).

The rule you have quoted says nothing about 1 shot = 1 hit. The blast rules state nothing about 1 shot = 1 hit, they state you count models for hits and the shield is not a model (nor is it beneath the marker as it has no physical presence).

You have literally made that up out of thin air.

 BlackTalos wrote:
A Blast template can never generate more Hits on 1 Target, unless you can prove it to me? Same for Flamer template.

That's easy to prove. Yes they certainly can.
You target a unit, cover 5 models with the blast marker.
1 target 5 hits.

I have always agreed that you count the hits on the template.

And do what with those hits? Nothing.
Yet multiple hits with an assault20 weapon can be transfered.
You're not consistant with your argument.

But once you transfer it to the shield, that is 1 target (again the 1), you have 1 Hit to resolve.

False. As shown one target can be hit multiple times by a single shot.

You NEVER "recalculate" the hit in any way:

Then why are you doing it? The number of hits are determined by the template, you're then recalculating it as one. Why? You just said you can't but that is what you're doing.

The rule states you have hit already. How many hits? However many that weapon can produce on 1 target, say a Rhino.

This arguement is false, a rhino is a target comprised of a single model. What if the target is a unit of 20? Suddenly your exaple fails.

If you have a weapon that can generate 5 Hits on a Rhino, it'd generate 5 on the shield.

We have a weapon that can generate 5 hits on a target unit of 20 models. So 5 hits by your own reasoning.

Don't write things i've never written: I have always agreed that you count the hits on the template. That's how templates work. But once you transfer it to the shield, that is 1 target (again the 1), you have 1 Hit to resolve.

The shield is 1 target now citation please. A unit is a target and is the only thing you can target. A unit is a target that consists of multiple models a shield consists of NO MODELS unless you're counting models the blast is not doing hits.

You NEVER "recalculate" the hit in any way: The rule states you have hit already. How many hits? However many that weapon can produce on 1 target, say a Rhino.

Again with the Rhino. As has been pointed out the Rhino is a model the shield is not. How many hits you can cause on a Rhino (or any other 1 model unit) is entirely irrelevant unless you can show some rules that state the shield is a model or is treated as such for determining hits from the shooting attack. This has been pointed out before to you so if you refuse to quote those rules or bring up a 1 model unit example again I'll take that as you conceding.

You can not ignore the fact that the ONLY way to generate hits from a blast weapon is to see how many models are under the template. You can not invoke the shield special rule until hits are scored. If a template generates 5 hits on a unit inside a shield, where are you given permission to discard the remaining 4 hits? The answer is nowhere.

Furthermore, with the assualt 20 weapon, if one ATTACK generates 20 HITS and those HITS are transfered to the shield, we can determine that 1 ATTACK consists of MULTIPLE HITS. As the blast weapon can only generate hits by using the template, the 5 hits MUST be generated. When the blast ATTACK is then transfered to the shield, all of the HITS THAT THE ATTACK ALREADY GENERATED must be transfered because those hits are part of the ATTACK.

In short, Attacks generate hits. Hits activate the shield. The whole attack (including the hits it generated, which are needed to activate the shield in the first place) are tranfered.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And Assault 20 weapon is still a single shooting attack. You've stated it's treated differently from blasts and yet your own statement should treat them the same.
At least be consistent.

I don't really get the argument? i never said anything is done differently? They are treated the same?

You said an Assault 20 weapon that causes20 hits on a unit will cause 20 hits on the shield.

But a blast that causes 20 hits on a unit will cause 1 hit on a shield.

your argument is inconsistant. You're treating them differently for an unknown reason.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
1 Hit is entirely made up.
You say you're ignoring the hits generated by the template (the ONLY way to determine hits from a blast weapon I should point out), and transfering the attack.
The attack now has an unknown number of hits.
1 shot can produce more than one hit. For example blasts and tesla weapons.

Can you provide a rule saying 1 shot can produce only 1 hit? You need such a rule for your theory to be right.

So please cite the rule.

No, I keep citing the 1 Rule that is important here: "Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."
The best example is probably indeed Tesla: Can 1 Tesla hit on 1 Target make multiple hits on a 6? Yes

If you score a 6 on a Tesla, hitting the Target inside, the "shot" gets transferred: It qualifies for generating 2 more Hits: you resolve 3 hits on the shield.

A Blast template can never generate more Hits on 1 Target, unless you can prove it to me? Same for Flamer template.

You say you're ignoring the hits generated by the template (the ONLY way to determine hits from a blast weapon I should point out), and transfering the attack.
The attack now has an unknown number of hits.

Don't write things i've never written: I have always agreed that you count the hits on the template. That's how templates work. But once you transfer it to the shield, that is 1 target (again the 1), you have 1 Hit to resolve.
You NEVER "recalculate" the hit in any way: The rule states you have hit already. How many hits? However many that weapon can produce on 1 target, say a Rhino.

If you have a weapon that can generate 5 Hits on a Rhino, it'd generate 5 on the shield.




However proving how many hits are on the shield was done many posts above. If you read the RaW and conclude you have 1 Vindicator shot Taking down 9 Shields and killing 1 Marine inside, i cannot force you to see it any other way. I have read (and quoted) the Rule many times and it's meaning is clear to me as it is to others. I will play it by the RaW that way and if we ever meet for a game, it'll have to be rolled-off


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
And Assault 20 weapon is still a single shooting attack. You've stated it's treated differently from blasts and yet your own statement should treat them the same.
At least be consistent.

I don't really get the argument? i never said anything is done differently? They are treated the same?

Why are you not utilizing the context provided from the second half of that paragrpah? "Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield...If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead."

Blast markers generate hits based on the number of models under the blast marker. One attack can generate multiple hits. The Void Shield rules also specifically allow for single attacks that generate multiple hits to strike both the shield and the target unit. There is no justification for claiming that a blast weapon that normally causes multiple hits on a unit now causes only a single hit on a shield.

It would be nice if the rules made total sense and that the same weapon would have the same effect on a VSG whether it is shooting at a Leman Russ tank or a mob of 20 Orks. Here's hoping they clarify things.

It's simply because the shield, at armour 12 is treated like a vehicle or a building. Agreed it is not a Physical model but the Hits work the same way.

I will say the same thing twice:

A Blast hits a Rhino, so does a plasma pistol and a Heavy Bolter. How many dice roll to pen the Rhino?

A Blast hits a squad of ten guards(So hits the shield), so does a plasma pistol and a Heavy Bolter. How many dice roll to pen the Shield?

I'm sorry but those two cases produce the exact same amount of dice. Because of how the Rule is Written.

In any example you could give me (please try to find one) and where you replace the words "Hits 5 Guards" with "Hits the Void Shield" with any weapon you want, that is how the Rule is written.

No clarification needed, there is only one possible way to resolve the attack without ignoring the rule for how blast weapons generate hits

Angelic wrote:
It would be nice if the rules made total sense and that the same weapon would have the same effect on a VSG whether it is shooting at a Leman Russ tank or a mob of 20 Orks. Here's hoping they clarify things.

Or this is indeed a very good RAI argument =P

Agreed it is not a Physical model but the Hits work the same way.

Citation required.

A Blast hits a Rhino, so does a plasma pistol and a Heavy Bolter. How many dice roll to pen the Rhino?

I'll take that as you conceding as I stated. You claim we recalculate the hits from the blast marker as if the shield was a unit of one model (yet also claim not to recalculate hits) and have failed to quote any rules to support that. Despite this being made clear to you. So I assume you are simply trolling now and will treat you as such until you quote the rules supporting the above statement.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
In short, Attacks generate hits. Hits activate the shield. Shield replaces target as what you have Hit. The whole attack (including the hits it generated, which are needed to activate the shield in the first place) are tranfered.

The RaW, as I read it, clearly adds the Red text above. Which then implies you are not transferring anything, you are just changing the "target" in a way.

And when a blast hit an Entity (because apparently Target isn't clear enough) it causes 1 hit.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Angelic wrote:
It would be nice if the rules made total sense and that the same weapon would have the same effect on a VSG whether it is shooting at a Leman Russ tank or a mob of 20 Orks. Here's hoping they clarify things.

Or this is indeed a very good RAI argument =P

I agree with you there. It does seem like a ridiculous result that a Revenant shooting at a Leman protected by 3 VSG w/ 3 layers each won't feel the Pulsars until turn 3-4, but (as others argue) a unit of 10 guardsmen will drop all 9 layers from all 3 VSG and take some wounds turn 1. Same weapon, 2 drastically different results for the IG army. Hey kids, take transports!

 FlingitNow wrote:

Agreed it is not a Physical model but the Hits work the same way.

Citation required.

A Blast hits a Rhino, so does a plasma pistol and a Heavy Bolter. How many dice roll to pen the Rhino?

I'll take that as you conceding as I stated. You claim we recalculate the hits from the blast marker as if the shield was a unit of one model (yet also claim not to recalculate hits) and have failed to quote any rules to support that. Despite this being made clear to you. So I assume you are simply trolling now and will treat you as such until you quote the rules supporting the above statement.

Well thank you for your input as you have not disproved anything and not helped much apart from "because i say No".
I am definitely not trolling as I was on the "All hits transfer" side too. But then someone quoted the actual Rule, and RaW is just clear to me.
I am now trying to get everyone on the same side but failing miserably it seems. So play it as you will and good luck!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Angelic wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Angelic wrote:
It would be nice if the rules made total sense and that the same weapon would have the same effect on a VSG whether it is shooting at a Leman Russ tank or a mob of 20 Orks. Here's hoping they clarify things.

Or this is indeed a very good RAI argument =P

I agree with you there.

And i am trying to get everyone agreed on the RaW, but interpretation is interpretation and i'm *just* about to give up lol

 BlackTalos wrote:
It's simply because the shield, at armour 12 is treated like a vehicle or a building. Agreed it is not a Physical model but the Hits work the same way.

I will say the same thing twice:

A Blast hits a Rhino, so does a plasma pistol and a Heavy Bolter. How many dice roll to pen the Rhino?

A Blast hits a squad of ten guards(So hits the shield), so does a plasma pistol and a Heavy Bolter. How many dice roll to pen the Shield?

I'm sorry but those two cases produce the exact same amount of dice. Because of how the Rule is Written.

In any example you could give me (please try to find one) and where you replace the words "Hits 5 Guards" with "Hits the Void Shield" with any weapon you want, that is how the Rule is written.

Here is your example with the correct wording:
Unit of guardsmen takes 5 hits ---> Shield takes 5 hits.

With your wording lets do another example with the assault 20 weapon.
Hits 20 guardsmen ---> hits the shield

The flaw in your reasoning is where you think that 5 individual guardsmen are hit. It is the unit that takes the hit, not the individual models. The models are only used to determine how many hits the unit takes. The hits would be allocated to the model closest to the firing weapon and in theory, he could tank every single one. (Providing he makes his saves)

As I stated before, the rule says that the attack is transferred. At the point that the rule comes into play, the attack consists of 5 hits. Nothing more, nothing less. When that attack is then applied to the shield, it must take 5 hits. If not, then the attack has not been transferred. There is no rule stating that a shield can only ever take one hit from a blast weapon. Without this rule, all five hits must be applied.

Edit: clarification

 BlackTalos wrote:
A Blast hits a Rhino, so does a plasma pistol and a Heavy Bolter. How many dice roll to pen the Rhino?

Is this a single unit shooting? The answer is "unknown" as you havn't specified how many hits the heavy bolter caused.
Funny how you always use a single model unit for your example. Is this because a blast will cause one hit, and one is your answer?

A blast targets a squadron of Sentinels, hitting three. How many dice roll to pen the Sentinels?

Black talons - you are still ignoring the blast weapon rules, and have no allowance to,

 BlackTalos wrote:

And i am trying to get everyone agreed on the RaW, but interpretation is interpretation and i'm *just* about to give up lol

the main problem that you are having is that you are not following all of the relevant rules to support your case.

as such your case is incorrect as many have been trying to show you but you are unwilling or unable to accept that point.


I'll try to re-phrase it.

warhammer 40k rule-set is a permissive ruleset.

we have permission within the BRB that all blast and template weapons generate a number of hits = to the number of models underneath the template instead of firing normally.

the BRB provides a mechanism for blast weapons to scatter, representing the roll to hit.

the number of models underneath the template is = to the number of 'hits' generated from the attack.

the void shield rules intercept the hits that are generated by any shooting attack outside of X distance.

the hits are required to be calculated before they can be transferred, this is because we already have permission from blast weapons and templates to use them to determine the number of hits generated by the attack.

the void shield rules do not impose a restriction on blast weapons, as such we use them normally, in the given examples, you have read too much into 'attacks originating' and overlooked the basic premise of blast weapons.

your argument is imposing a supposition that the void shield becomes the new 'target' of the attack and as such would only generate a singular hit, this is inaccurate as the wording does not support your claim, the shield is transferring hits from the original target unto itself, it is not becoming the new target, this is important as if it were becoming the new target, then blast weapons would not work at all.

if however you disagree with the above statement or feel I misrepresented the basic premise of your argument, please both correct the basic premise of your argument and provide the rule, book and page number that tells you that blast weapons can only ever score a single hit as opposed to being resolved normally.