Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Agreed it is not a Physical model but the Hits work the same way.

Citation required.

A Blast hits a Rhino, so does a plasma pistol and a Heavy Bolter. How many dice roll to pen the Rhino?

I'll take that as you conceding as I stated. You claim we recalculate the hits from the blast marker as if the shield was a unit of one model (yet also claim not to recalculate hits) and have failed to quote any rules to support that. Despite this being made clear to you. So I assume you are simply trolling now and will treat you as such until you quote the rules supporting the above statement.

Well thank you for your input as you have not disproved anything and not helped much apart from "because i say No".
I am definitely not trolling as I was on the "All hits transfer" side too. But then someone quoted the actual Rule, and RaW is just clear to me.
I am now trying to get everyone on the same side but failing miserably it seems. So play it as you will and good luck!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Angelic wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Angelic wrote:
It would be nice if the rules made total sense and that the same weapon would have the same effect on a VSG whether it is shooting at a Leman Russ tank or a mob of 20 Orks. Here's hoping they clarify things.

Or this is indeed a very good RAI argument =P

I agree with you there.

And i am trying to get everyone agreed on the RaW, but interpretation is interpretation and i'm *just* about to give up lol

Although they are 2 different entries, you can look at the VS building upgrade and correlate the two. It's pretty clear what happens when a blast weapon hits a unit on a building's battlements. Why should it be any different for a unit standing out in the open protected by what should be the same thing? For reference:

Void Shield: "...any hits scored by shooting attacks against...models embarked within it or upon its battlements will instead hit the void shield."

And when a blast hit an Entity (because apparently Target isn't clear enough) it causes 1 hit.

Absolutely false and since this has been pointed out repeatedly to you this is a clear and deliberate lie. A blast that hits a unit of 1 model will only cause 1 hit to that unit. A shield is neither a unit nor a model as is NEVER said to be treated as such. Please do not post deliberate lies in your argument as it is likely to annoy those you are discussing the rules with and is in no way helpful.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And Assault 20 weapon is still a single shooting attack. You've stated it's treated differently from blasts and yet your own statement should treat them the same.
At least be consistent.

I don't really get the argument? i never said anything is done differently? They are treated the same?

You said that a blast weapon generates a single hit because the shooting attack is intercepted.
You also said that an assault 20 weapons can generate 20 hits, despite that that this shooting attack is also intercepted.
Both shooting attacks can generate multiple hits, but you're only asserting that one of them changes to one hit - and still haven't supported your argument.

 nutty_nutter wrote:

your argument is imposing a supposition that the void shield becomes the new 'target' of the attack and as such would only generate a singular hit, this is inaccurate as the wording does not support your claim, the shield is transferring hits from the original target unto itself, it is not becoming the new target, this is important as if it were becoming the new target, then blast weapons would not work at all.

That is is indeed perfectly how i read the Rule, and how is that inaccurate?
"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield." Quoting yet again.

That's exactly what that phrase is saying is it not? The shooting attack Hits the Shield Instead of the Target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Black talons - you are still ignoring the blast weapon rules, and have no allowance to,

Not really... I apply all the blast rules, then apply VSG rules unto those and conclude 1 Pen Dice roll in a way: "Because VSG rule says so"

But we're not going anywhere if we just go "i said so", so i'm trying to get everyone agreed, but oh well... =S

 BlackTalos wrote:
Not really... I apply all the blast rules, then apply VSG rules unto those and conclude 1 Pen Dice roll in a way: "Because VSG rule says so"

You apply the blast rules, then ignore them.
How do you conclude 1 pen, when the rules you've just thown out say otherwise?

i'm trying to get everyone agreed

Everyone is agreeing.
Just not with your interpretation.

Please do not generalise.

 Mythra wrote:
I believe a blast attack only hits the shield and 1 shield is dropped.

It states the attack INSTEAD hits the void shield. You never hit the unit. You only drop 1 shield.

S.K.Ren wrote:Lets look at the two rules in question.

The building upgrade says "Whilst a building has a void shield, any hits scored by shooting attacks against the building, models embarked within it or upon its battlements will instead hit the void shield. A void shield has an Armour Value of 12."

The generator on the other hand says "Each projected void shield has a 12"area of effect (measured from any point on the Void Shield Generator building), known as a Void Shield Zone. Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."

Both say attacks hitting units/models/buildings/etc in their area of protection, hit the Void Shield instead. If it had claimed that the attacks are resolved against the Void Shield first, that would be different. But they say' instead' meaning they take the place of. If a unit of guard takes 9 hits from a blast while under a void shield the blast then instead hits the void shield. A blast can only generate 1 hit per model and since the guard are no longer being hit since the void shield is up the shield only takes one hit since it is the only thing being hit.

Dast wrote:I think it comes down to how to read the word "attack" in the rule. If attack means hit then Therion is indeed correct. However I would personally lean the other way and say that attack means shot. 1 vindicator shot might well be capable of killing 10 guardsmen, but its still just one "attack", and is transferred to the void shield as one attack (which we are told hits the void shield, so any template business is needless). Ie. I agree with BlackTalos.

That's how I would read it, although I can see the other side.

In terms of how the rules were intended (leaving aside writing) I think it is pretty clear that a blast is only supposed to hit the shield once (or maybe once per unit in the blast), certainly not once per model.

And a few more, but they have since stopped trying as I will to bring you to reading the RaW properly =S

Or they have since seen the error in their interpretation?

It's been shown that a blast can generate more than one hit from a single target.
The "one pen only" is still entirely made up.

You avoided this question earlier, care to answer now?

 grendel083 wrote:
A blast targets a squadron of Sentinels, hitting three. How many dice roll to pen the Sentinels?

That's why i would recommend dropping the examples. Of course you pen 3 times, 1 per sentinel. But we have one shield, or a layer of up to 9 (Still 1 shield)

What i am trying to point at is that the void shield is 1 entity, just as those sentinels are 3 entities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
It's been shown that a blast can generate more than one hit from a single target.

I fully agree, but a blast can only ever generate 1 hit on a model. Now i know the shield is not a model, but it is 1 entity if you will?
1 entity that a special rule refers to.

There are no rules for entities.

The sentiles are one unit.
One target.

One target, three hits.
Same as if you fired an assault 3 weapon and hit with all three.
One target, three hits.

Yet for some reason you wish to only transfer one hit from a blast and three from a non-blast.

You can generate more than one hit from a target with a blast as shown. Where does the one come from?
It is an entirely made up number.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
It's been shown that a blast can generate more than one hit from a single target.

I fully agree, but a blast can only ever generate 1 hit on a model. Now i know the shield is not a model, but it is 1 entity if you will?
1 entity that a special rule refers to.

You don't target models, you target units.
A target can never be a model.
It must be a unit.
It can be a unit comprised of one model, that's fine.
But a blast can very much generate more than one hit from a target.

 FlingitNow wrote:

And when a blast hit an Entity (because apparently Target isn't clear enough) it causes 1 hit.

Absolutely false and since this has been pointed out repeatedly to you this is a clear and deliberate lie. A blast that hits a unit of 1 model will only cause 1 hit to that unit. A shield is neither a unit nor a model as is NEVER said to be treated as such. Please do not post deliberate lies in your argument as it is likely to annoy those you are discussing the rules with and is in no way helpful.

Yet again i shall quote what i am posting about: "Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits X."

What is X? What is it that is being hit? it's not a model or a unit that's for sure, but it still get hit by an attack?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
Yet for some reason you wish to only transfer one hit from a blast and three from a non-blast.

Again, that's the part with the issue: we are not transferring hits but Shooting attacks. When you transfer the attack you transfer what the weapons CAN do, not what it HAS done?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as right above per the RaW:
You resolve your weapon on the shield...

And how many hits do you cause?

The reason you gave previously for "one" has been shown as incorrect.

So how many?

And why the double standard of transfering all hits from a non-blast, but not the same for a blast?

No, you are ignoring that you don't know the hit until you follow the blast rules. That tells you how many hits you have, and these are intercepted.

You are making up rules, which isn't a great position to come from

Not really... I apply all the blast rules, then apply VSG rules unto those and conclude 1 Pen Dice roll in a way: "Because VSG rule says so"

Where does VSG say this. It does not. A weapon generates hits according to its rules be that blast, rapid fire, assault, heavy etc. We have no permission to intercept the to hit process. After the attack has generated hits we transfer the attack to the shield. What you are claiming is at this point there is an arbitrary 1 hit restriction placed on blast and template weapon because you think the shield is 1 entity and blast weapons cause 1 hit on 1 entity. Yet as we've proven this is not the case blast weapons cause hits based purely on models which the void shield is not.

Everyone agrees and is clear on the RaW. You've made up a bunch of rules disregarded the blast weapon rules and applied your new rules in an arbitrary way. That is not RaW.

 grendel083 wrote:
And how many hits do you cause?

The reason you gave previously for "one" has been shown as incorrect.

So how many?

Diplomatically= What the rule say:"(...) hits the projected void shield" The projected void shield. That's how many hits.
My Answer = The void shield, THE void shield.

 grendel083 wrote:
And why the double standard of transfering all hits from a non-blast, but not the same for a blast?

No double standards: you transfer all attacks:
Blast hits the projected void shield
Pistol hits the projected void shield
Assault hits the projected void shield
etc
Tesla hits the shield (and can generate 3 hits)

hen you transfer the attack you transfer what the weapons CAN do, not what it HAS done?

You've
A) made this up yourself (as it is not present in the rules) and
B) don't even understand it

A blast weapon can not cause ANY hits on something that is not made of models. The shield is not a model thus by your definition blast weapons do nothing to shields

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, you are ignoring that you don't know the hit until you follow the blast rules. That tells you how many hits you have, and these are intercepted.

You are making up rules, which isn't a great position to come from

No, i am basing ALL my arguments on this one line:
"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield"

 BlackTalos wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
And how many hits do you cause?

The reason you gave previously for "one" has been shown as incorrect.

So how many?

Diplomatically= What the rule say:"(...) hits the projected void shield" The projected void shield. That's how many hits.
My Answer = The void shield, THE void shield.

That's not an answer. That's avoiding one.
There's a lack of a number there.
If your interpretation is so right, you should have no problem in giving these answers along with an explanination.

 grendel083 wrote:
And why the double standard of transfering all hits from a non-blast, but not the same for a blast?

No double standards: you transfer all attacks:
Blast hits the projected void shield
Pistol hits the projected void shield
Assault hits the projected void shield
etc
Tesla hits the shield (and can generate 3 hits)

Yes it hits the shield.
How many times?

You hit the target unit first.

An assault 20 weapon hits the target unit 10 times. How many times is the shield hit and why?
A blast hits a target unit causing 5 hits. How many times is the shield hit and why?

 BlackTalos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, you are ignoring that you don't know the hit until you follow the blast rules. That tells you how many hits you have, and these are intercepted.

You are making up rules, which isn't a great position to come from

No, i am basing ALL my arguments on this one line:
"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield"

Answer this then: a tesla weapon targets a 5 man squad protected by 1 void shield. The tesla generates 4 hits. The first roll against the shield is a 5, collapsing it. What happens to the other three hits?

 BlackTalos wrote:
"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield"

Exactly. All hits are moved.

If an autocannon hits twice, both hits are moved to the void shield.

If a blast weapon hits twice, both hits are moved to the void shield.

If a flamer hits twice, both hits are moved to the void shield.

You are inventing a rule that you discard "extra" hits for some types of weapons but not for other types.

I just don't think we're moving anywhere, but here is my method of resolving the shooting attack:

1) Resolve Hits from shooting, have a look at which weapons have Hit
2) Void Shield Special rule: "Those attacks hit the shield" The rule specifically tells you the attacks have hit the shield. No transferring hits.
3) Resolve Pen of those weapons on the shield.

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield"
"Any Vindicator Shot that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits 10 Guardsmen within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield"
In the above where i've specified the attack and the target, the conclusion is: You now have a Vindicator shot on the shield that has hit. Not 10 hits, but "the" shot on "the" shield. Because that is just what the rule says?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
And how many hits do you cause?

The reason you gave previously for "one" has been shown as incorrect.

So how many?

Diplomatically= What the rule say:"(...) hits the projected void shield" The projected void shield. That's how many hits.
My Answer = The void shield, THE void shield.

That's not an answer. That's avoiding one.
There's a lack of a number there.
If your interpretation is so right, you should have no problem in giving these answers along with an explanination.

I know there's a lack of answer, because as much as you insist I do, I do not generate things out of thin air, i just read the Rule and answer with it...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PanzerLeader wrote:
Answer this then: a tesla weapon targets a 5 man squad protected by 1 void shield. The tesla generates 4 hits. The first roll against the shield is a 5, collapsing it. What happens to the other three hits?

Any of those a 6?
And that is part of the next stage of the rule, not figuring out exactly how many hits we have to assign on the shield?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
And why the double standard of transfering all hits from a non-blast, but not the same for a blast?

No double standards: you transfer all attacks:
Blast hits the projected void shield
Pistol hits the projected void shield
Assault hits the projected void shield
etc
Tesla hits the shield (and can generate 3 hits)

Yes it hits the shield.
How many times?

You hit the target unit first.

An assault 20 weapon hits the target unit 10 times. How many times is the shield hit and why?
A blast hits a target unit causing 5 hits. How many times is the shield hit and why?

10 hits off the assault weapon, because 10 out of the 20 shots Hit
1 hit off the blast, because 1 out of the 1 shot Hit

 BlackTalos wrote:
In the above where i've specified the attack and the target, the conclusion is: You now have a Vindicator shot on the shield that has hit. Not 10 hits, but "the" shot on "the" shield. Because that is just what the rule says?

But that makes absolutely no sense. If you go back to the step of resolution where you have a shot and not hits then you have no way of determining whether the Vindicator shot hits the void shield or not.

Also, the rule says "attack", not "shot". You're changing the rule in a significant way to help your argument. A single shooting attack can have multiple shots, so if you insist that "one attack = one hit on the void shield" then an autocannon or other multi-shot weapon can never inflict more than one hit on a void shield.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
In the above where i've specified the attack and the target, the conclusion is: You now have a Vindicator shot on the shield that has hit. Not 10 hits, but "the" shot on "the" shield. Because that is just what the rule says?

But that makes absolutely no sense. If you go back to the step of resolution where you have a shot and not hits then you have no way of determining whether the Vindicator shot hits the void shield or not.

You do, i quote: "(...) hits the projected void shield" It says "Hits", why would it not hit?

Also, the rule says "attack", not "shot". You're changing the rule in a significant way to help your argument. A single shooting attack can have multiple shots, so if you insist that "one attack = one hit on the void shield" then an autocannon or other multi-shot weapon can never inflict more than one hit on a void shield.

Not 1 attack = 1 Hit, The attack is treated against the 1 shield (even if layered of 9). Of course the attack is multiple shots, but 1 Shot is 1 Hit max

 BlackTalos wrote:
1 Shot is 1 Hit max

But that isn't a rule.

 BlackTalos wrote:
10 hits off the assault weapon, because 10 out of the 20 shots Hit
1 hit off the blast, because 1 out of the 1 shot Hit

Why are blasts different from non-blasts?
Multple hits where caused againsts the target.
One shot can cause more than one hit.
Again Tesla, you allow three hits from that.
One shot, multiple hits. Same as blast.
There is no difference, why the hipocritical approach?

 grendel083 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
1 Shot is 1 Hit max

But that isn't a rule.

No it isn't, but it's what i get out of the VSG wording.
If all i had on the table was 1 Rhino, every shot will ever be 1 Hit max, right? even if there are 10 models inside?

 BlackTalos wrote:
You do, i quote: "(...) hits the projected void shield" It says "Hits", why would it not hit?

Because you're trying to go back a step in resolution so that the blast is only one shot and you can justify only inflicting one hit. You have two choices here:

1) A blast weapon is a single shot and can only hit the void shield once. Unfortunately you can't determine whether a blast weapon hits an imaginary object or not, so the game breaks and can't continue as soon as you shoot a blast weapon (or any other weapon that uses a line/template/etc) at a unit inside a void shield.

or

2) A blast weapon inflicts hits according to the normal rules, and then all hits are moved to the void shield, just like an autocannon can hit twice (by rolling to hit as usual) and have all of its hits moved to the void shield.

Of course the attack is multiple shots, but 1 Shot is 1 Hit max

There is no such rule. In fact the existence of various blast/line/template/etc weapons pretty clearly prove that one shot can produce multiple hits.

 grendel083 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
10 hits off the assault weapon, because 10 out of the 20 shots Hit
1 hit off the blast, because 1 out of the 1 shot Hit

Why are blasts different from non-blasts?
Multple hits where caused againsts the target.
One shot can cause more than one hit.
Again Tesla, you allow three hits from that.
One shot, multiple hits. Same as blast.
There is no difference, why the hipocritical approach?

Because of how the rule is written? It would be the exact same number of hits you would get on any AV12 Vehicle.
You would want a Rhino with 10 marines to take more hits than a Rhino containing a single model?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
1 Shot is 1 Hit max

But that isn't a rule.

No it isn't, but it's what i get out of the VSG wording.
If all i had on the table was 1 Rhino, every shot will ever be 1 Hit max, right? even if there are 10 models inside?

In that one example yes, one hit.
And if you only had the unit of 10, without the rhino, every shot could be more than one hit. Correct?
How is that relevent?

 BlackTalos wrote:
If all i had on the table was 1 Rhino, every shot will ever be 1 Hit max, right? even if there are 10 models inside?

But that's not how void shields work. Models in a transport aren't on the table and can't be under a blast template, so only the one model can be hit by a (standard) blast weapon. Void shields, on the other hand, transfer hits generated against another unit to the void shield. The analogy here would be a special "meat shield" rule where the Rhino could drive into the path of incoming fire and take the hits for a unit behind it. And in that case you would determine how many hits are scored against the unit behind the Rhino (whether by rolling to hit, placing templates, or whatever else the rules for the weapon say) and the move all of them to the Rhino.

The only way this argument works is if you never hit the unit inside the shield at all, and determine if the blast template hits the shield or not. But this is impossible since there are no rules for determining whether blast weapons hit imaginary objects.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
You do, i quote: "(...) hits the projected void shield" It says "Hits", why would it not hit?

Because you're trying to go back a step in resolution so that the blast is only one shot and you can justify only inflicting one hit. You have two choices here:

1) A blast weapon is a single shot and can only hit the void shield once. Unfortunately you can't determine whether a blast weapon hits an imaginary object or not, so the game breaks and can't continue as soon as you shoot a blast weapon (or any other weapon that uses a line/template/etc) at a unit inside a void shield.

or

2) A blast weapon inflicts hits according to the normal rules, and then all hits are moved to the void shield, just like an autocannon can hit twice (by rolling to hit as usual) and have all of its hits moved to the void shield.

Of course the attack is multiple shots, but 1 Shot is 1 Hit max

There is no such rule. In fact the existence of various blast/line/template/etc weapons pretty clearly prove that one shot can produce multiple hits.

3) A blast weapon inflicts hits according to the normal rules, and then the Special Rule says it hits the projected void shield but it's a single shot, so 1 hit?

Multiple Hit, on multiple models, there is only 1 void shield

 BlackTalos wrote:
A blast weapon inflicts hits according to the normal rules, and then the Special Rule says it hits the projected void shield but it's a single shot, so 1 hit?

Only if there was a single model under the blast maker. That is the only way a blast can EVER generate a single hit.