Void Shield Generators & Blasts & Etc.

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**nosferatu1001**

Again bt , please show why you are discarding the number of hits, and making up the number one instead?

You have cited rules, but nothing has supported your assertions.

Your concession is accepted

**BlackTalos**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again bt , please show why you are discarding the number of hits, and making up the number one instead?

BlackTalos wrote:
Phase 3 wrote:Roll to hit.
Roll a D6 for each shot fired. Notice emphasis.
Blast Rule:(lets notice here, as this is a Special Rule a weapon has, that weapon is still a e.g. Heavy 1, so 1 shot, weapon.)
We have determined hits for various weapons. This has followed all RaW to hit for ALL weapons.

Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:First, you will notice how this is a step, a Special Rule step, where things happen according to the Special Rule. Not a "To Hit" stage where Blast Weapons rules count many models. In this step we have a hit portion, a "Roll to pen" portion and an allocation of Hits portion.
Now, the shots that scored Hits in Phase 3 (" Any shooting attack (...) and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone") INSTEAD Hits the Void Shield.
If 3 Shots hit from an Assault 20 weapons, then 3 shots hit the VS instead.
If 1 Shot hit from a Heavy 1, Blast weapon, then 1 Shot hits the VS instead.
If 2 Shots hit from an Assault 3, Tesla weapon, then 2 Shots hit the VS Instead.
Now, certain Special Rules trigger when a shot Hits a target, such as Rending and Tesla on 6. Right above, I have shown the attack hits the shields: Those Rules trigger (INCLUDING the Blast Special Rule - but the Special Rule says it right there above:"A Void Shield Generator has a single projected void shield." What can a blast do on a single VS? 1 Hit. If you do not agree the because "the VS is not a model", then then Blast Special Rule does not apply, but you still have the 1 shot, in green above that the VS Special Rule, as Written:"Any shooting attack instead hits the projected void shield" says you have. It does not say "roll to hit again, calculate hits again or transfer hits", but "Instead Hits" - you HAVE a hit, you cannot say "i have 0 hits", its says you have one.

There is no word "discard" in here.

**rigeld2**

BlackTalos wrote:

Spoiler:

Each projected void shield has an Armour Value of 12. A glancing or penetrating hit (or any hit from a Destroyer weapon) scored against a projected void shield causes it to collapse. If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead. At the end of each of the controlling player’s turns, roll a dice for each projected void shield that has collapsed; each roll of 5+ instantly restores one shield.

Now, the shots that scored Hits in Phase 3 (" Any shooting attack (...) and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone") INSTEAD Hits the Void Shield.

And here's where you're misapplying the rules. I'll point it out again - you've ignored every other attempt in the past, but its amusing that you're ignoring it.

You are asserting that the shots instead hit the Void Shield. The actual rule you keep quoting is the shooting attack instead hits the void shield. Do you see a difference there? Why/Why not?

**nosferatu1001**

Black - no, your shooting attack instead hits the shield. Your shooting attack has 10 hits. Why are you ignoring the ten hits and changing this to one?

Please make no more references to rhinos, or other actual models. The vsg is not a model

**BlackTalos**

Please define Shooting attack?

My BRB says on p12: Once you have completed steps 1 to 5 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, (...)

Shooting attack: Steps 1 to 5.

BlackTalos wrote:

Phase 3 wrote:Roll to hit.
Roll a D6 for each shot fired. Notice emphasis.This has followed all RaW to hit for ALL weapons.

Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:First, you will notice how this is a step, a Special Rule step, where things happen according to the Special Rule. Not a "To Hit" stage where Blast Weapons rules count many models. In this step we have a hit portion, a "Roll to pen" portion and an allocation of Hits portion.
Now, the shots that scored Hits in Phase 3 (" Any shooting attack (...) and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone") INSTEAD Hits the Void Shield.
If 3 Shots hit from an Assault 20 weapons, then 3 shots hit the VS instead.
If 1 Shot hit from a Heavy 1, Blast weapon, then 1 Shot hits the VS instead.
If 2 Shots hit from an Assault 3, Tesla weapon, then 2 Shots hit the VS Instead.

**rigeld2**

BlackTalos wrote:
Please define Shooting attack?

My BRB says on p12: Once you have completed steps 1 to 5 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, (...)

Shooting attack: Steps 1 to 5.

Wow - you finally responded to it! Great!
Yes, a shooting attack consists of 5 steps. You complete 3 steps and then move the shooting attack over to the VSG.
Now - why are you going back and doing step 3 again on Blast weapons but not other weapons?
Also - you don't have to repeatedly quote your overly long post. We get it. But it does not explain why you rewind a step solely for Blast weapons. It doesn't explain why the hits generated in step 3 do not transfer only for blast weapons.

**BlackTalos**

rigeld2 wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
Please define Shooting attack?

My BRB says on p12: Once you have completed steps 1 to 5 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, (...)

Shooting attack: Steps 1 to 5.

Wow - you finally responded to it! Great!
Yes, a shooting attack consists of 5 steps. You complete 3 steps and then move the shooting attack over to the VSG.
Now - why are you going back and doing step 3 again on Blast weapons but not other weapons?
Also - you don't have to repeatedly quote your overly long post. We get it. But it does not explain why you rewind a step solely for Blast weapons. It doesn't explain why the hits generated in step 3 do not transfer only for blast weapons.

BlackTalos wrote:

Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:First, you will notice how this is a step, a Special Rule step, where things happen according to the Special Rule. Not a "To Hit" stage where Blast Weapons rules count many models. In this step we have a hit portion, a "Roll to pen" portion and an allocation of Hits portion.

I am not going back anywhere...? I don't want to quote step 3 again but it's past, this is Phase: VSG Special Rule
I am simply applying the VSG Special Rule

**rigeld2**

BlackTalos wrote:
I am not going back anywhere...? I don't want to quote step 3 again but it's past, this is Phase: VSG Special Rule
I am simply applying the VSG Special Rule

And by applying the VSG special rule you must have the entire shooting attack instead hit the VSG. Correct?
Are the hits generated in step 3 part of the shooting attack? It's a simple yes or no question. Quoting the VSG rule means nothing to answer this question.

**BlackTalos**

rigeld2 wrote:
And by applying the VSG special rule you must have the entire shooting attack instead hit the VSG. Correct?
Are the hits generated in step 3 part of the shooting attack?

Not Correct, and yes, they are.
If "you must have the entire shooting attack instead hit the VSG" by definition you apply the Phase 4 and 5 to the shield. Good luck applying the Wounds of the unit to the shield

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suppose what you actually want to hear here is: Shooting attack = Shots, as we cannot apply the Entire shooting attack

**nosferatu1001**

Black talons - step 3 calcs the hits, you then change this to one. Citation now. Do not repeat the vsg rules, as they do not contain any relevant rule here

**BlackTalos**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Black talons - step 3 calcs the hits, you then change this to one. Citation now. Do not repeat the vsg rules, as they do not contain any relevant rule here

RaW wrote:"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlackTalos wrote:
Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:
If 1 Shot hit from a Heavy 1, Blast weapon, then 1 Shot hits the VS instead.

I have shown the attack hits the shields.
What can a blast do on a single VS? 1 Hit. If you do not agree the because "the VS is not a model", then then Blast Special Rule does not apply, but you still have the 1 shot, in green above that the VS Special Rule, as Written:"Any shooting attack instead hits the projected void shield" says you have. It does not say "roll to hit again, calculate hits again or transfer hits", but "Instead Hits" - you HAVE a hit, you cannot say "i have 0 hits", its says you have one.

**nosferatu1001**

Yes, and the SHOOTING ATTACK has 10 hits

Thanks for accepting your error

**rigeld2**

BlackTalos wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
And by applying the VSG special rule you must have the entire shooting attack instead hit the VSG. Correct?
Are the hits generated in step 3 part of the shooting attack?

Not Correct, and yes, they are.
If "you must have the entire shooting attack instead hit the VSG" by definition you apply the Phase 4 and 5 to the shield. Good luck applying the Wounds of the unit to the shield

It's a good thing VSG inserts itself prior to those steps and forces a separate resolution then, eh?

I suppose what you actually want to hear here is: Shooting attack = Shots, as we cannot apply the Entire shooting attack

Except that's not what the rules actually say. You're making an assumption unsupported by the rules. You absolutely can apply the entire shooting attack up to this point. And you are - except for Blasts. For them you are making an exception.

**BlackTalos**

rigeld2 wrote:
Except that's not what the rules actually say. You're making an assumption unsupported by the rules. You absolutely can apply the entire shooting attack up to this point. And you are - except for Blasts. For them you are making an exception.

No assumption at all, i'm following the VSG SR.

BlackTalos wrote:
Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:Now, the shots that scored Hits in Phase 3 (" Any shooting attack (...) and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone") INSTEAD Hits the Void Shield.
If 3 Shots hit from an Assault 20 weapons, then 3 shots hit the VS instead.
If 1 Shot hit from a Heavy 1, Blast weapon, then 1 Shot hits the VS instead.
If 2 Shots hit from an Assault 3, Tesla weapon, then 2 Shots hit the VS Instead.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, and the SHOOTING ATTACK has 10 hits

Thanks for accepting your error

View Post just above

**rigeld2**

BlackTalos wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Except that's not what the rules actually say. You're making an assumption unsupported by the rules. You absolutely can apply the entire shooting attack up to this point. And you are - except for Blasts. For them you are making an exception.

No assumption at all, i'm following the VSG SR.

BlackTalos wrote:
Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:Now, the shots that scored Hits in Phase 3 (" Any shooting attack (...) and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone") INSTEAD Hits the Void Shield.

I'll leave your irrelevant quote in here to prove a point. First, changing the size of the font is annoying - please stop. Second, please bold the words that show that shooting attack = shots as you asserted.

**grendel083**

So you're saying you have NO RULE that lets you discard the hits generated in step 3 of the shooting attack?
And NO RULE to recalculate?

Because NO RULE is what you continue to re-post.
Look what you just posted. NO RULES. some opinion, but no rule.

**BlackTalos**

RaW wrote:"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."

If this part need clarification for the 2 of you:

We have a shooting attack, so far containing what?
1)A shooting unit
2)A target unit
3)A nb of Shots
4)A nb of Hits

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."

1) is unchanged
2) is defined, 4) is defined

Oh look, 2) and 4) have been changed by the Rule

What is left in "shooting attack"? 1) 3)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

grendel083 wrote:
So you're saying you have NO RULE that lets you discard the hits generated in step 3 of the shooting attack?
And NO RULE to recalculate?

Because NO RULE is what you continue to re-post.
Look what you just posted. NO RULES. some opinion, but no rule.

What? It's pure rules... did you miss the quotes or Spoiler parts?

I also never used the words "recalculate" or "Discard", none of those happen. there is an Instead in the RaW though?

**rigeld2**

BlackTalos wrote:
RaW wrote:"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."

If this part need clarification for the 2 of you:

We have a shooting attack, so far containing what?
1)A shooting unit
2)A target unit
3)A nb of Shots
4)A nb of Hits

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."

1) is unchanged
2) is defined, 4) is defined

Oh look, 2) and 4) have been changed by the Rule

What is left in "shooting attack"? 1) 3)

So why are you not advocating to re-roll tohits for non blast weapons? You've said that they do not re-roll but you're invalidating the hits using this logic.
And the location of the hits has been changed, but the number has not.
And I still see literally zero words that support your assertion that shooting attack = shots.

**grendel083**

Except changing your step 4 is not what the rule says.
The target changes yes.
The number if hits previously calculated? Where does it say to RECALCULATE that?
It doesn't. You've made that up.

And you're not changing it for non-blast weapons.
What rule says to re-calculate for blast and nothing else?

Highlighting the word "hits" in pretty colours does not allow you to invent meanings.

**BlackTalos**

rigeld2 wrote:
So why are you not advocating to re-roll tohits for non blast weapons? You've said that they do not re-roll but you're invalidating the hits using this logic.
And the location of the hits has been changed, but the number has not.
And I still see literally zero words that support your assertion that shooting attack = shots.

Where does your assertion that shooting attack = hits come from?

For your first question:

BlackTalos wrote:
Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:
Now, the shots that scored Hits in Phase 3 (" Any shooting attack (...) and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone") INSTEAD Hits the Void Shield.
If 3 Shots hit from an Assault 20 weapons, then 3 shots hit the VS instead.
If 1 Shot hit from a Heavy 1, Blast weapon, then 1 Shot hits the VS instead.
If 2 Shots hit from an Assault 3, Tesla weapon, then 2 Shots hit the VS Instead.

Assault 20 = Heavy 1,Blast = Assault 3,Tesla = etc

**grendel083**

Hits are part of a shooting attack, you know that you quoted it earlier.
Step 3 of making a shooting attack. P12

Now what rule lets you ignore step 3 then re-calculate it?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlackTalos wrote:
If 1 Shot hit from a Heavy 1, Blast weapon, then 1 Shot hits the VS instead.

This is made up and unsupported by any rule. Why do you keep repeating it without a single rule to back it up?
That one shot has ALREADY generated several hits.
Again what rule lets you ignore them?
What rule lets you re-calculate?

**BlackTalos**

grendel083 wrote:
The number if hits previously calculated? Where does it say to RECALCULATE that?
It doesn't. You've made that up.

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."
It does not say "recalculate", it says " instead hits". Now do you need grammar lessons on the phrase above? it's meaning should be clear...?

grendel083 wrote:
And you're not changing it for non-blast weapons.
What rule says to re-calculate for blast and nothing else?

Please stop making up stuff, quote my post if you disagree with it anywhere.

**rigeld2**

BlackTalos wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
So why are you not advocating to re-roll tohits for non blast weapons? You've said that they do not re-roll but you're invalidating the hits using this logic.
And the location of the hits has been changed, but the number has not.
And I still see literally zero words that support your assertion that shooting attack = shots.

Where does your assertion that shooting attack = hits come from?

I've never said that - ever.
Hits are part of the shooting attack. The shooting attack is what instead hits the shield. Therefore the hits hit the shield.

And your answer to my first question didn't actually answer anything. It parroted what you've been saying over and over and just reinforces that you shouldn't quote what you've already said.
I understand that you're saying that. But your recent post said that steps 2 and 4 were invalidated. Why are you only repeating them for Blasts and not non-blast weapons?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlackTalos wrote:
grendel083 wrote:
The number if hits previously calculated? Where does it say to RECALCULATE that?
It doesn't. You've made that up.

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."
It does not say "recalculate", it says " instead hits". Now do you need grammar lessons on the phrase above? it's meaning should be clear...?

Yes, it is clear. The 10 hits the blast weapon generated instead hit the shield.

**BlackTalos**

grendel083 wrote:
Hits are part of a shooting attack, you know that you quoted it earlier.
Step 3 of making a shooting attack. P12

That one shot has ALREADY generated several hits.

Fully agreed

grendel083 wrote:
Now what rule lets you ignore step 3 then re-calculate it?

This is made up and unsupported by any rule. Why do you keep repeating it without a single rule to back it up?
That one shot has ALREADY generated several hits.
Again what rule lets you ignore them?
What rule lets you re-calculate?

BlackTalos wrote:

Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:First, you will notice how this is a step, a Special Rule step, where things happen according to the Special Rule. Not a "To Hit" stage where Blast Weapons rules count many models.
Now, the shots that scored Hits in Phase 3 (" Any shooting attack (...) and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone") INSTEAD Hits the Void Shield.

Not clear?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
So why are you not advocating to re-roll tohits for non blast weapons? You've said that they do not re-roll but you're invalidating the hits using this logic.
And the location of the hits has been changed, but the number has not.
And I still see literally zero words that support your assertion that shooting attack = shots.

Where does your assertion that shooting attack = hits come from?

I've never said that - ever.
Hits are part of the shooting attack. The shooting attack is what instead hits the shield. Therefore the hits hit the shield.

Shots are part of the shooting attack. The shooting attack, and hits is what instead hits the shield. Therefore the shots hit the shield.
Corrected

**grendel083**

BlackTalos wrote:
grendel083 wrote:
The number if hits previously calculated? Where does it say to RECALCULATE that?
It doesn't. You've made that up.

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."
It does not say "recalculate", it says " instead hits". Now do you need grammar lessons on the phrase above? it's meaning should be clear...?

Is your entire argument based that it says "hits"?
It says the Attack hits. Not one hit. The attack. You've quoted the rule so many times, yet fail to notice the "attack hits".
This is not the same as hits from the attack.
Those are parts of the attack that you are discarding without a rule. And recalculating without a rule.

The attack hits it. Hits are part of the attack p12

grendel083 wrote:
And you're not changing it for non-blast weapons.
What rule says to re-calculate for blast and nothing else?

Please stop making up stuff, quote my post if you disagree with it anywhere

I'm making nothing up, you've said many times all hits from an assault weapon are transferred. But those of a blast you recalculate. Why? No rule supports this.

**rigeld2**

BlackTalos wrote:
Shots are part of the shooting attack. The shooting attack, and hits is what instead hits the shield. Therefore the shots hit the shield.
Corrected

Yay! The hits that were generated hit the shield. Thank you for admitting your stance was incorrect.

**grendel083**

BlackTalos wrote:
Shots are part of the shooting attack. The shooting attack, and hits is what instead hits the shield. Therefore the shots hit the shield.

So now you're saying the hits are transferred. Great.
But how do you go from multiple hits to one? Without a rule telling you too?

**BlackTalos**

rigeld2 wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."
It does not say "recalculate", it says " instead hits". Now do you need grammar lessons on the phrase above? it's meaning should be clear...?

Yes, it is clear. The 10 hits the blast weapon generated instead hit the shield.
Yes, it is clear. The shot of 10 hits the blast weapon generated instead hit the shield.

Also corrected

**rigeld2**

BlackTalos wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."
It does not say "recalculate", it says " instead hits". Now do you need grammar lessons on the phrase above? it's meaning should be clear...?

Yes, it is clear. The 10 hits the blast weapon generated instead hit the shield.
Yes, it is clear. The shot of 10 hits the blast weapon generated instead hit the shield.
Also corrected

I didn't say that - might want to fix it.
I'm confused as to your post - are you sticking with your stance? Or have you changed it?

**BlackTalos**

rigeld2 wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
Shots are part of the shooting attack. The shooting attack, and hits is what instead hits the shield. Therefore the shots hit the shield.
Corrected

Yay! The hits that were generated hit the shield. Thank you for admitting your stance was incorrect.

Guess the addition wasn't clear: "Therefore the shots hit the shield"

BlackTalos wrote:

Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:If 1 Shot hit from a Heavy 1, Blast weapon, then 1 Shot hits the VS instead.

"The shooting attack, and hits is what instead hits the shield." The hits Instead hit the shield: one Hit instead of "the hits"

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."
It does not say "recalculate", it says " instead hits". Now do you need grammar lessons on the phrase above? it's meaning should be clear...?

Yes, it is clear. The 10 hits the blast weapon generated instead hit the shield.
Yes, it is clear. The shot of 10 hits the blast weapon generated instead hit the shield.

Also corrected

I didn't say that - might want to fix it.
I'm confused as to your post - are you sticking with your stance? Or have you changed it?

Edited