Void Shield Generators & Blasts & Etc.

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**rigeld2**

BlackTalos wrote:
"The shooting attack, and hits is what instead hits the shield." The hits Instead hit the shield: one Hit instead of "the hits"

Oh - so you'll apply this to non-blast weapons as well? So all weapons hit a single time?

**BlackTalos**

BlackTalos wrote:
Shots are part of the shooting attack. The shooting attack, and hits is what instead hits the shield. Therefore the shots hit the shield.

=> Shooting attack & Hits are Instead "Hit the shield" because there is "Hit the shield" and Shots are part of the shooting attack, you are left with "shots"

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
"The shooting attack, and hits is what instead hits the shield." The hits Instead hit the shield: one Hit instead of "the hits"

Oh - so you'll apply this to non-blast weapons as well? So all weapons hit a single time?

All shots hit a single time, correct!

I think you are getting this!

**nutty_nutter**

please define shots.

there isn't one in the BRB.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
also not true at all, not all shots hit a single time.

**grendel083**

BlackTalos wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
Shots are part of the shooting attack. The shooting attack, and hits is what instead hits the shield. Therefore the shots hit the shield.
Corrected

Yay! The hits that were generated hit the shield. Thank you for admitting your stance was incorrect.

Guess the addition wasn't clear: "Therefore the shots hit the shield"

Shots are a means to to an end to generate hits. Where are shots mentioned? The Attack is transferred. Hits are part of the Attack.
The shots part has already be calculated and tuned to hits.
This is another part you're re-calculating without a rule telling you too.

BlackTalos wrote:

Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:If 1 Shot hit from a Heavy 1, Blast weapon, then 1 Shot hits the VS instead.

You keep re-posting this as if it's a rule. Why?
It isn't a rule, and it isn't technically correct.
Why keep repeating it?

**BlackTalos**

nutty_nutter wrote:
please define shots.

there isn't one in the BRB.

BRB,p50 wrote: Number of Shots
Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after it's type.

**grendel083**

BlackTalos wrote:
All shots hit a single time, correct!

Totally false!
How can you even think this?

Template: 1 attack, 1 shot: many hits
Blast: 1 attack, 1 shot: many hits
Tesla: 1 attack, 1 shot: up to 3 hits

That's just 3 examples showing this is WRONG.

**BlackTalos**

nutty_nutter wrote:
also not true at all, not all shots hit a single time.

Please expand?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

grendel083 wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
All shots hit a single time, correct!
Totally false!
How can you even think this?

Template: 1 attack, 1 shot: many hits
Blast: 1 attack, 1 shot: many hits
Tesla: 1 attack, 1 shot: up to 3 hits

That's just 3 examples showing this is WRONG.

No that is 3 examples of you applying a Special Rule: Template, Blast, and Tesla

**grendel083**

BlackTalos wrote:
nutty_nutter wrote:
also not true at all, not all shots hit a single time.
Please expand?

See my post above. 3 examples. I'm sure there are more.

**rigeld2**

BlackTalos wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
Shots are part of the shooting attack. The shooting attack, and hits is what instead hits the shield. Therefore the shots hit the shield.

=> Shooting attack & Hits are Instead "Hit the shield" because there is "Hit the shield" and Shots are part of the shooting attack, you are left with "shots"

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
"The shooting attack, and hits is what instead hits the shield." The hits Instead hit the shield: one Hit instead of "the hits"

Oh - so you'll apply this to non-blast weapons as well? So all weapons hit a single time?

All shots hit a single time, correct!

I think you are getting this!

...

It'd be great if you didn't change what I said to fit your incorrect view. I never said shots, you did. I said weapons.
So you are hanging your hat on an incorrect reading of that sentence. Good to know.
FYI - the plurality of the second "hit" is irrelevant to the outcome.

**grendel083**

BlackTalos wrote:
No that is 3 examples of you applying a Special Rule: Template, Blast, and Tesla

Thats 3 examples of a single shot causing more than one hit.

And "template" is not a special rule. See page 52.

**BlackTalos**

grendel083 wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
Shots are part of the shooting attack. The shooting attack, and hits is what instead hits the shield. Therefore the shots hit the shield.
Corrected

Yay! The hits that were generated hit the shield. Thank you for admitting your stance was incorrect.

Guess the addition wasn't clear: "Therefore the shots hit the shield"
Shots are a means to to an end to generate hits. Where are shots mentioned? The Attack is transferred. Hits are part of the Attack.
The shots part has already be calculated and tuned to hits.
This is another part you're re-calculating without a rule telling you too.

You might want to read this part:

BlackTalos wrote:

Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:Now, the shots that scored Hits in Phase 3 (" Any shooting attack (...) and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone") INSTEAD Hits the Void Shield.
(...)
(INCLUDING the Blast Special Rule - but the Special Rule says it right there above:"A Void Shield Generator has a single projected void shield." What can a blast do on a single VS? 1 Hit. If you do not agree because "the VS is not a model", then the Blast Special Rule does not apply, but you still have the 1 shot, in green above, that the VS Special Rule, as Written:"Any shooting attack instead hits the projected void shield" says you have. It does not say "roll to hit again, calculate hits again or transfer hits", but "Instead Hits" - you HAVE a hit, you cannot say "i have 0 hits", its says you have one.
So, the rules that trigger on Hit, such as Tesla, now triggers, and: Tesla adds 2 more hits.

Then, those hits given to you above, move to the next part: "A glancing or penetrating hit (or any hit from a Destroyer weapon) scored against a projected void shield causes it to collapse"

**Kommissar Kel**

BlackTalos wrote:
No that is 3 examples of you applying a Special Rule: Template, Blast, and Tesla

You had already said that Tesla gets to have 3 hits; now you are saying because it is a special rule it doesn't? just so you can Claim you are right through your made up RAW?

**BlackTalos**

grendel083 wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
No that is 3 examples of you applying a Special Rule: Template, Blast, and Tesla
Thats 3 examples of a single shot causing more than one hit.

And "template" is not a special rule. See page 52.

Nope, it's a Rule (just not special), that replaces "To hit" rolls. But that weapon still fires 1 Shot.
Or just read the 1st Phrase of the Rules below:
Multiple Templates
If a unit is firing more that one shot with (...)

Case in point.

**grendel083**

Wow the VSG rule said all that?
No it didn't.
I've read that before, it was wrong then, as was pointed out then.

Now will you admit that 1 shot can generate more than one hit? So we can progress?
Instead of re-posting incorrect statements?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlackTalos wrote:
grendel083 wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
No that is 3 examples of you applying a Special Rule: Template, Blast, and Tesla
Thats 3 examples of a single shot causing more than one hit.

And "template" is not a special rule. See page 52.

Nope, it's a Rule (just not special), that replaces "To hit" rolls. But that weapon still fires 1 Shot.
Or just read the 1st Phrase of the Rules below:
Multiple Templates
If a unit is firing more that one shot with (...)

Case in point.

Yes. I clearly stated it fires one shot.
And one shot can generate more than one hit.
Something you incorrectly said couldn't happen.

**BlackTalos**

Kommissar Kel wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
No that is 3 examples of you applying a Special Rule: Template, Blast, and Tesla

You had already said that Tesla gets to have 3 hits; now you are saying because it is a special rule it doesn't? just so you can Claim you are right through your made up RAW?

BlackTalos wrote:
Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:
Now, the shots that scored Hits in Phase 3 (" Any shooting attack (...) and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone") INSTEAD Hits the Void Shield.
If 2 Shots hit from an Assault 3, Tesla weapon, then 2 Shots hit the VS Instead.
Now, certain Special Rules trigger when a shot Hits a target, such as Rending and Tesla on 6.
So, the rules that trigger on Hit, such as Tesla, now triggers, and: Tesla adds 2 more hits.

**grendel083**

Why are you still re-posting this?
It's been shown wrong.
And why are you quoting it as the VSG rule. You're mis-quoting. It does not say that.

**BlackTalos**

grendel083 wrote:
Wow the VSG rule said all that?
No it didn't.
I've read that before, it was wrong then, as was pointed out then.

Now will you admit that 1 shot can generate more than one hit? So we can progress?
Instead of re-posting incorrect statements?

BlackTalos wrote:
grendel083 wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
No that is 3 examples of you applying a Special Rule: Template, Blast, and Tesla
Thats 3 examples of a single shot causing more than one hit.

And "template" is not a special rule. See page 52.

Nope, it's a Rule (just not special), that replaces "To hit" rolls. But that weapon still fires 1 Shot.
Or just read the 1st Phrase of the Rules below:
Multiple Templates
If a unit is firing more that one shot with (...)

Case in point.

Yes. I clearly stated it fires one shot.
And one shot can generate more than one hit.
Something you incorrectly said couldn't happen.

Oh, are you talking about Units with 10 Models? Why of course all of those weapons can generate multiple hits on those!

I thought we were discussing Void Shield Generators?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

grendel083 wrote:
It's been shown wrong.

I disagree, that you are trying, yes. Succeeded? No

**grendel083**

BlackTalos wrote:
Oh, are you talking about Units with 10 Models? Why of course all of those weapons can generate multiple hits on those!

I thought we were discussing Void Shield Generators?

As you full well know, that unit must be hit first.
Then the attack, the full attack is transferred.

Now you've dodged the questions for too long. Its going beyond the joke.
Don't repost misquotes, answer them:

1. What rule lets you discard the hits generate at step 3 of the attack?
2. What rule lets you re-calculate the hits?
3. Can a single shot generate more than 1 hit?

**BlackTalos**

grendel083 wrote:
Why are you still re-posting this?
And why are you quoting it as the VSG rule. You're mis-quoting. It does not say that.

BlackTalos wrote:

This is my last contribution here and just a description of the RaW and how they are applied. If any questions arise, i will quote the relevant section of this post to reply.
Thank you for any input to clear up this Rule, i have tried to include all aspects in my post.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

grendel083 wrote:

1. What rule lets you discard the hits generate at step 3 of the attack?
2. What rule lets you re-calculate the hits?
3. Can a single shot generate more than 1 hit?

Going round in circles, i have answered all 3 already.
1. and 2. are in my previous post. (the one where I describe the RaW for VSG) (Oh look, that's actually the answer to both: the VSG RaW)
3. is literally 2 posts above.

**grendel083**

BlackTalos wrote:
grendel083 wrote:

1. What rule lets you discard the hits generate at step 3 of the attack?
2. What rule lets you re-calculate the hits?
3. Can a single shot generate more than 1 hit?

Going round in circles, i have answered all 3 already.
1. and 2. are in my previous post. (the one where I describe the RaW for VSG)
3. is literally 2 posts above.

I see a lot of dodged answers.
I see a lot of repeated misquotes.
I see no straight answers.
Since you believe your interpretation correct, providing a straight simple answer shouldn't be a problem. Please do so to the 3 above.

**Kommissar Kel**

When your description of the RAW has to change and ignore the points being made, you are not Citing RAW.

That is not what the rule actually says(and thus not RAW)

**FlingitNow**

Oh, are you talking about Units with 10 Models? Why of course all of those weapons can generate multiple hits on those!

I thought we were discussing Void Shield Generators?

And how many models does a PVS contain?

**BlackTalos**

Kommissar Kel wrote:
When your description of the RAW has to change and ignore the points being made, you are not Citing RAW.

That is not what the rule actually says(and thus not RAW)

You mean when i say: "a description of the RaW and how they are applied (...) i have tried to include all aspects in my post" ?
when i said that i tried to include the points being made and show how the RaW applies to them?
By quoting all parts of RaW?

FlingitNow wrote:
Oh, are you talking about Units with 10 Models? Why of course all of those weapons can generate multiple hits on those!

I thought we were discussing Void Shield Generators?

And how many models does a PVS contain?

VSG Special Rule wrote:A Void Shield Generator has a single projected void shield. It can be upgraded to include additional layers of void shielding.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

FlingitNow wrote:
And how many models does a PVS contain?

Or were you asking about the "Template covers model" part?

BlackTalos wrote:
Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:INCLUDING the Blast Special Rule - but the Special Rule says it right there above:"A Void Shield Generator has a single projected void shield." What can a blast do on a single VS? 1 Hit. If you do not agree because "the VS is not a model", then the Blast Special Rule does not apply, but you still have the 1 shot, in green above, that the VS Special Rule, as Written:"Any shooting attack instead hits the projected void shield" says you have. It does not say "roll to hit again, calculate hits again or transfer hits", but "Instead Hits" - you HAVE a hit, you cannot say "i have 0 hits", its says you have one.

**grendel083**

grendel083 wrote:
1. What rule lets you discard the hits generate at step 3 of the attack?
2. What rule lets you re-calculate the hits?
3. Can a single shot generate more than 1 hit?

**BlackTalos**

grendel083 wrote:
1. What rule lets you discard the hits generate at step 3 of the attack?
2. What rule lets you re-calculate the hits?
3. Can a single shot generate more than 1 hit?

1. VSG Special Rule
2. VSG Special Rule
3. Of course

**FlingitNow**

I just want you to tell me the number of models that a PVS contains. I know the rules so quoting them does nothing just a number please.

**grendel083**

BlackTalos wrote:
grendel083 wrote:
1. What rule lets you discard the hits generate at step 3 of the attack?
2. What rule lets you re-calculate the hits?
3. Can a single shot generate more than 1 hit?

1. VSG Special Rule
2. VSG Special Rule
3. Of course

1. No it doesn't. It says Transfer the Attack. Never says to discard anything.
2. No it doesn't. It says Transfer the Attack. Never says to re-calculate anything.
3. Thank you. I can always respect some that admits they were previously wrong.

Edit: also...

BlackTalos wrote:
Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:INCLUDING the Blast Special Rule - but the Special Rule says it right there above:"A Void Shield Generator has a single projected void shield." What can a blast do on a single VS? 1 Hit. If you do not agree because "the VS is not a model", then the Blast Special Rule does not apply, but you still have the 1 shot, in green above, that the VS Special Rule, as Written:"Any shooting attack instead hits the projected void shield" says you have. It does not say "roll to hit again, calculate hits again or transfer hits", but "Instead Hits" - you HAVE a hit, you cannot say "i have 0 hits", its says you have one.

The VSG rule did not say this. Please stop quoting.
Don't put words in others mouths, especially when that "someone" is a rule.

**WrentheFaceless**

Seems weird that the blast would become a blast, wouldnt it be intercepted by the sheld first?

I know this is arguing "logic" here (as in what would happen in real life), but wouldnt a blast hit a shield once since it failed to 'blast' on its intended unit being intercepted by the shield first?

If the two editions are that funk would probably just play a blast makes one hit on the shield, because it wouldnt get through the shield to drop the template on the unit itself.

The whole hitting the transport only, and not the guys inside thing.

**grendel083**

WrentheFaceless wrote:
Seems weird that the blast would become a blast, wouldnt it be intercepted by the sheld first?

I know this is arguing "logic" here (as in what would happen in real life), but wouldnt a blast hit a shield once since it failed to 'blast' on its intended unit being intercepted by the shield first?

If the two editions are that funk would probably just play a blast makes one hit on the shield, because it wouldnt get through the shield to drop the template on the unit itself.

The whole hitting the transport only, and not the guys inside thing.

Logically, yes. You're a absolutly right.
And it's a perfectly acceptable house rule, and one I'd encourage people to adopt.
It's just not what the rules actually say.
And this is a rules debate.

**BlackTalos**

grendel083 wrote:
WrentheFaceless wrote:
Seems weird that the blast would become a blast, wouldnt it be intercepted by the sheld first?

I know this is arguing "logic" here (as in what would happen in real life), but wouldnt a blast hit a shield once since it failed to 'blast' on its intended unit being intercepted by the shield first?

If the two editions are that funk would probably just play a blast makes one hit on the shield, because it wouldnt get through the shield to drop the template on the unit itself.

The whole hitting the transport only, and not the guys inside thing.
Logically, yes. You're a absolutly right.
And it's a perfectly acceptable house rule, and one I'd encourage people to adopt.
It's just not what the rules actually say. <= Very debatable indeed
And this is a rules debate.

RaI i think we are all clear on that's for sure. I'm sure GW will put up a FAQ someday saying something like "treat it as a model or transport", but until that day, we are stuck with one line people just read differently, and i guess that all in all it comes down to the grammar of that one Sentence which is clear to me and holds the same meaning to others, but they have long since abandoned the debate.