FlingitNow wrote:
Talos you still haven't answered my question ams to how many models does a Void Shield contain. Just a number as requested I know where the rules are so no need to quote them.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Look, when the Vector Strike SR says "That unit takes D3+1 hits(...)"

Do you roll to Hit? No

When the VSG rule says "hits the projected void shield"

Do you roll to hit? No

It's the same use of a Special Rule that states you hit something. One says "with Strength and AP3" the other "with the shot that hit the Target previously"

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Talos you still haven't answered my question ams to how many models does a Void Shield contain. Just a number as requested I know where the rules are so no need to quote them.

Why are you desperate to know how many models it contains? The rule never talks about models? It just says your shot hits the shield and you are to resolve it.

Why are you desperate to know how many models it contains? The rule never talks about models? It just says your shot hits the shield and you are to resolve it.

rigeld2 wrote:
Except the VSG rule doesn't say "with the shot". It says the shooting attack. As in, the entire thing. You're forcing Blasts to roll to hit again (except instead of rolling to hit you just count them as a single hit) but not forcing other weapons to do so. This. Isn't. Consistent.

Perhaps because, I dunno, blasts care about how many models the marker covers? Pesky rules getting in the way and all.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:First, you will notice how this is a step, a Special Rule step, where things happen according to the Special Rule. Not a "To Hit" stage where Blast Weapons rules count many models.
Now, the shots that scored Hits in Phase 3 (" Any shooting attack (...) and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone") INSTEAD Hits the Void Shield.
If 3 Shots hit from an Assault 20 weapons, then 3 shots hit the VS instead.
If 1 Shot hit from a Heavy 1, Blast weapon, then 1 Shot hits the VS instead.
If 2 Shots hit from an Assault 3, Tesla weapon, then 2 Shots hit the VS Instead.
Now, certain Special Rules trigger when a shot Hits a target, such as Rending and Tesla on 6. Right above, I have shown that the attack hits the shields: Those Rules trigger (INCLUDING the Blast Special Rule - but the Special Rule says it right there above:"A Void Shield Generator has a single projected void shield." What can a blast do on a single VS? 1 Hit. If you do not agree because "the VS is not a model", then the Blast Special Rule does not apply, but you still have the 1 shot, in green above, that the VS Special Rule, as Written:"Any shooting attack instead hits the projected void shield" says you have. It does not say "roll to hit again, calculate hits again or transfer hits", but "Instead Hits" - you HAVE a hit, you cannot say "i have 0 hits", its says you have one.
So, the rules that trigger on Hit, such as Tesla, now triggers, and: Tesla adds 2 more hits.

rigeld2 wrote:
It says the shooting attack. As in, the entire thing.

BlackTalos wrote:You cannot be applying - ALL OF IT - or you would be applying wounds you got on the models onto the VS.
You are applying what you have of it so far:
Shots that have produced hits. Sooooo... 3 shots and 16 Hits.

Then in comes the RaW:"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."
Not "Your misquoting a rule" but pure RaW.
What does it say? that "3 shots and 16 Hits" INSTEAD Hits the VS. Ergo 3 shots hit the void shield. Why just shots? Because the Rule says you've hit with them, not that you transfer anything!

 FlingitNow wrote:

Why are you desperate to know how many models it contains? The rule never talks about models? It just says your shot hits the shield and you are to resolve it.

Does it matter why I want to know? Just answer the question.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Yeah, it was that or just not answering the trick question....
Guess i'll just follow your advice, not answering any more questions that are trying to debunk by getting you to say something =P

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Except the VSG rule doesn't say "with the shot". It says the shooting attack. As in, the entire thing. You're forcing Blasts to roll to hit again (except instead of rolling to hit you just count them as a single hit) but not forcing other weapons to do so. This. Isn't. Consistent.

Perhaps because, I dunno, blasts care about how many models the marker covers? Pesky rules getting in the way and all.

All shots follow the same procedure that is the VSG Rule.
And you keep pointing at things already answered. Red highlights.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

"The VSP rules tell us to move the shooting attack over to the shield after hits are determined (SHA pg31). Since we are not told to recalculate or do anything with the number of hits the shooting attack has generated therefore we can't (SHA pg31. It is a permissive ruleset. The number of hits stays the same unless you can show permission to change it (you need permission to change so no rule here as there is no permission). See how everything I've written is based on actual rules."

Everything i write is also based on the actual VSG Rules. But back to your point: The highlighted Red is EXACTLY why you cannot apply those hits to the VS.

Now, Quoting BRB:

BRB p33 wrote: Once the final blast marker has been determined, take a good look at it from above - the unit suffers one hit for each model with it's base fully or partially beneath the blast marker.

Notice the emphasis again. A shield or 3 layers of shield would remove 3 hits (at minimum). This is breaking Blast Rules RaW: The unit suffers a set number of hits. You cannot reduce this in any way or you are breaking the RaW... This does not happen in our example.

Now show me how your blast weapon can inflict "one hit for each model with it's base fully or partially beneath the blast marker" if you are transferring and intercepting 1 or 2 of them?

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It says the shooting attack. As in, the entire thing.

BlackTalos wrote:You cannot be applying - ALL OF IT - or you would be applying wounds you got on the models onto the VS.
You are applying what you have of it so far:
Shots that have produced hits. Sooooo... 3 shots and 16 Hits.

Then in comes the RaW:"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."
Not "Your misquoting a rule" but pure RaW.
What does it say? that "3 shots and 16 Hits" INSTEAD Hits the VS. Ergo 3 shots hit the void shield. Why just shots? Because the Rule says you've hit with them, not that you transfer anything!

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Except the VSG rule doesn't say "with the shot". It says the shooting attack. As in, the entire thing. You're forcing Blasts to roll to hit again (except instead of rolling to hit you just count them as a single hit) but not forcing other weapons to do so. This. Isn't. Consistent.

Perhaps because, I dunno, blasts care about how many models the marker covers? Pesky rules getting in the way and all.

All shots follow the same procedure that is the VSG Rule.
And you keep pointing at things already answered. Red highlights.

And you keep quoting inconsistent and irrelevant things.
Your "already answered" didn't answer anything except for the fact that you apparently still believe that shooting attack = shots. We've proven that wrong, I'm not sure why you keep saying it's correct.

The only way for a Blast weapon to generate hits is to count models under its marker. You're inventing a method to make your argument work.
The Blast weapon has already counted hits and you have not cited permission to rewind and do that again.
You are applying a new step solely to Blast weapons to generate a new number of hits - this is inconsistent.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It says the shooting attack. As in, the entire thing.

BlackTalos wrote:You cannot be applying - ALL OF IT - or you would be applying wounds you got on the models onto the VS.
You are applying what you have of it so far:
Shots that have produced hits. Sooooo... 3 shots and 16 Hits.

Then in comes the RaW:"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."
Not "Your misquoting a rule" but pure RaW.
What does it say? that "3 shots and 16 Hits" INSTEAD Hits the VS. Ergo 3 shots hit the void shield. Why just shots? Because the Rule says you've hit with them, not that you transfer anything!

Wow - another incorrect quote that doesn't actually address the issue. Cool!
The entire shooting attack that exists so far.
So 16 hits are part of the shooting attack. The shooting attack instead hits the shield. Since the 16 hits are part of the shooting attack, why do they not hit the shieid again?

 BlackTalos wrote:
Now each shot will be applied to the shield. How? "instead hits the projected void shield."

 BlackTalos wrote:
For all weapons:
See how many hits you did in phase 3? Relevant to phase 3, and to Phase VSG SR as a trigger: "and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone" - - 5 hits

Now each shot will be applied to the shield. How? "instead hits the projected void shield." - - 5 Shots Hit? 5 Hits

your shot is applied, does this trigger special rules? (Tesla, Rending, ect -even blast-) apply them. - - None here

Resolve Penetration. - - 5 Pens

Consistent, same for every. single. shot. from. any. weapon.

 BlackTalos wrote:
For all weapons:
See how many hits you did in phase 3? Relevant to phase 3, and to Phase VSG SR as a trigger: "and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone" - - 25 hits from the 2 shots

Now each shot will be applied to the shield. How? "instead hits the projected void shield." - - 2 Shots Hit? 2 Hits

your shot is applied, does this trigger special rules? (Tesla, Rending, ect -even blast-) apply them. - - Blast, if it can hit something that is "not a model" but you say no here, so does not apply

Resolve Penetration. - - 2 Pens

Consistent, same for every. single. shot. from. any. weapon.

 BlackTalos wrote:
For all weapons:
See how many hits you did in phase 3? Relevant to phase 3, and to Phase VSG SR as a trigger: "and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone" - - 6 hits from the 4 shots (one 6, 1 miss)

Now each shot will be applied to the shield. How? "instead hits the projected void shield." - - 4 Shots Hit? 4 Hits

your shot is applied, does this trigger special rules? (Tesla, Rending, ect -even blast-) apply them. - - Tesla: +2 hits for that 6

Resolve Penetration. - - 6 Pens

Consistent, same for every. single. shot. from. any. weapon.

rigeld2 wrote:
You are again saying that shooting attack = shot when that has been proven to be incorrect.

 grendel083 wrote:
A shot cannot be applied to the shield. That's not how shooting rules work. And not what the rule says.

Why are you applying a shot? No rule says this.

The shield is AV12. Only HITS can roll armour pen.
If you're applying a SHOT to the shield you've done something wrong.

The VSG never ever say to apply a shot, or transfer a shot.
It says to apply an Attack. That includes hits.

Shots are NEVER applied to the shield.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Still Shot & Hits, until it says "hits a target", which uses up your Hits "instead hits the projected void shield"

I cannot add words to make it clearer, but:
"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits 25 times a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits once the projected void shield."
because of the words "and" and "instead" splitting up the sentence. Like:

Any Cat that comes from outside and eats olives instead eats cheese.

It does not matter how many olives he used to eat... because he now eats cheese. if another rule like Tesla says he has to eat cheese with butter, so be it....

 BlackTalos wrote:
Nope, indeed, it says the shot "instead hits the projected void shield." you apply that hit, see the word Hit? To the shield.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Still Shot & Hits, until it says "hits a target", which uses up your Hits "instead hits the projected void shield"

How does that "use up your Hits"? And why does that only apply to Blasts?

I cannot add words to make it clearer, but:
"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits 25 times a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits once the projected void shield."
because of the words "and" and "instead" splitting up the sentence. Like:

Any Cat that comes from outside and eats olives instead eats cheese.

It does not matter how many olives he used to eat... because he now eats cheese. if another rule like Tesla says he has to eat cheese with butter, so be it....

He eats the same amount of cheese as he did olives. Not some new, invented amount that only applies to Limburger cheese and other cheeses he eats the same amount.

And again, using your example, you are restricting blasts to a single hit, but an Assault weapon that shoots 25 times you are allowing to hit 25 times even though the sentence you crafted above says it should hit once.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Nope, indeed, it says the shot "instead hits the projected void shield." you apply that hit, see the word Hit? To the shield.

That's a lie. You've been corrected enough times that at this point it is deliberate.
No rule says the shot hits the void shield. Ever. You made that up and are trying to push that as the rules when it's not. Please stop.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Nope, indeed, it says the shot "instead hits the projected void shield." you apply that hit, see the word Hit? To the shield.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Sorry let me correct the original to be more accurate to what the rule says:

Any Cats that come from outside and eats olives instead eats cheese.

Because we did agree that "Shooting attack" was all the shots we had so far.

 grendel083 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Nope, indeed, it says the shot "instead hits the projected void shield." you apply that hit, see the word Hit? To the shield.

It says the Attack.
HUGE difference.
And a shot cannot generate a hit without rolling it (or equivalent rule in the case of blasts/templates).
And a hit is part of the attack.

Shots are never mentioned. Attacks are.
To say a shot is resolved against the shield is completely made up.
As is ignoring the hits generated in step 3 of the attack.
As is re-calculating those hits.

If you don't include those hits generated you are not transferring the entire attack.
If you are re-calculating those hits, you're doing so without a rule giving permission.
If you're applying a shot against a shield, then you're failing to follow the rules of shooting (p12).

If you're applying a shot against a shield, then you're failing to follow the rules of shooting (p12)

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Nope, indeed, it says the shot "instead hits the projected void shield." you apply that hit, see the word Hit? To the shield.

That's a lie. You've been corrected enough times that at this point it is deliberate.
No rule says the shot hits the void shield. Ever. You made that up and are trying to push that as the rules when it's not. Please stop.

Really? what does "hits the projected void shield." mean to you then?

 grendel083 wrote:
Please avoid word games. They are too easy to twist to whatever meaning you like.
A cat is nothing like a game defined attack.

 grendel083 wrote:

And yes, an attack includes the hits.
So why do you discard and recalculate (recalculating being impossible in the case of blasts as you cannot place the marker), when no rule says to do so?

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Nope, indeed, it says the shot "instead hits the projected void shield." you apply that hit, see the word Hit? To the shield.

That's a lie. You've been corrected enough times that at this point it is deliberate.
No rule says the shot hits the void shield. Ever. You made that up and are trying to push that as the rules when it's not. Please stop.

Really? what does "hits the projected void shield." mean to you then?

At no point, ever, does the rule in question say that the shot hits the projected void shield. You keep saying that it does and that's a lie.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

"The VSP rules tell us to move the shooting attack over to the shield after hits are determined (SHA pg31). Since we are not told to recalculate or do anything with the number of hits the shooting attack has generated therefore we can't (SHA pg31. It is a permissive ruleset. The number of hits stays the same unless you can show permission to change it (you need permission to change so no rule here as there is no permission). See how everything I've written is based on actual rules."

Everything i write is also based on the actual VSG Rules. But back to your point: The highlighted Red is EXACTLY why you cannot apply those hits to the VS.

Now, Quoting BRB:

BRB p33 wrote: Once the final blast marker has been determined, take a good look at it from above - the unit suffers one hit for each model with it's base fully or partially beneath the blast marker.

Notice the emphasis again. A shield or 3 layers of shield would remove 3 hits (at minimum). This is breaking Blast Rules RaW: The unit suffers a set number of hits. You cannot reduce this in any way or you are breaking the RaW... This does not happen in our example.

Now show me how your blast weapon can inflict "one hit for each model with it's base fully or partially beneath the blast marker" if you are transferring and intercepting 1 or 2 of them?

You never answered yours.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Because the Shooting attack (containing shots that hit) perform a "as a substitute or an equivalent" hit, new hit, yes. It's not a lie it's the definition of "Instead".

 BlackTalos wrote:
And it does say it actually: "Any shooting attack hits the projected void shield." Because that's how it turns out if you remove the "instead"

 BlackTalos wrote:
Those 2 "Hits" words are very different hits. One is of the weapons shooting at a target, the other if of the same weapons shooting a shield.
We are not ignoring the hits generated in step 3 of the attack, we are using them to confirm a hit on the shield.
Instead: adv. 1. In the place of something previously mentioned; as a substitute or an equivalent.
Replaced? yes probably by the definition above.

If you're applying a shot against a shield, then you're failing to follow the rules of shooting (p12)

How? the shot hit the target per Shooting RaW, which triggered VSG RaW and changed what the weapon actually hit.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Everything i write is also based on the actual VSG Rules. But back to your point: The highlighted Red is EXACTLY why you cannot apply those hits to the VS.

So what hits do you apply and where are you getting rules to calculate those hits?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Notice the emphasis again. A shield or 3 layers of shield would remove 3 hits (at minimum). This is breaking Blast Rules RaW: The unit suffers a set number of hits. You cannot reduce this in any way or you are breaking the RaW... This does not happen in our example.

You are given express permission to reduce the number of hits to zero because the shooting attack (which is made up of hits) is redirected (you then gave permission later to place other hits back on the unit).

Once the final blast marker has been determined, take a good look at it from above - the unit suffers one hit for each model with it's base fully or partially beneath the blast marker

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
And it does say it actually: "Any shooting attack hits the projected void shield." Because that's how it turns out if you remove the "instead"

Why are you continuing to post when you've already conceded? Why waste your time further proving yourself wrong?

 BlackTalos wrote:
There are less hits in your attack than models: RaW Broken