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Blacktalos - this is the same point you keep ignoring on every thread.

How do you know a blast weapon has hit? You count up the number of models under the blast. The shield is not a model.

I hit five models. I have five hits. My shooting attack has five hits. According to you my shooting attack has one hit, and you do it without citing a single, relevant rule

That's whT you're missing, any actual rules .

I disagree, you know a blast hits if you roll the scatter dice and get a hit and a unit is underneath, or if it scatters and there ends up a unit underneath. The only reason the number of models underneath matters is if you're rolling to wound or for AP. If the blast hits a Void Shield first instead of a unit of any kind, then the number of models underneath doesn't matter at all.

Really Black Talos. Right lets go through it again shall we?

So you're going with 1 shot = 1 hit again despite knowing this is not true. So you have 9 shots lets say you get 8 hits how many hits are resolved against the shield?

The shield rules give you a defined process to follow it at no point tells you to count shots or consider shots. So if you're going to bring those in please post rules that tell us shots are in any way relevant.

You make a shooting attack with a unit. Then you have to determine if it hits. So you generate hits and check if that is 1 or more if so you proceed. You then say that attack hits the shield instead. So where is your permission to change or recalculate the hits? Why are you arbitrarily deciding 1 hit per shot?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
I disagree, you know a blast hits if you roll the scatter dice and get a hit and a unit is underneath, or if it scatters and there ends up a unit underneath. The only reason the number of models underneath matters is if you're rolling to wound or for AP. If the blast hits a Void Shield first instead of a unit of any kind, then the number of models underneath doesn't matter at all.

Please read the rules. You can disagree but what Nos has stated is a 100% fact in the rules.

I agree with Blacktalos, although I can see both sides of the debate, this one seems the most reasonable.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
I disagree, you know a blast hits if you roll the scatter dice and get a hit and a unit is underneath, or if it scatters and there ends up a unit underneath. The only reason the number of models underneath matters is if you're rolling to wound or for AP. If the blast hits a Void Shield first instead of a unit of any kind, then the number of models underneath doesn't matter at all.

Your disagreement is noted but ignored, as it is not an assertion based on any actual rules.

Read the blast rules, note you never roll to hit with blasts. The only rules that tell you if you have hit is the one I have stated, which generates a number of hits, not always one. Your method would require making up a few rules - that you ignore the rules for blasts, discard the number of hits with no permission to do so, and then make up a rule allowing you to hit a shield that isn't a model.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
discard the number of hits with no permission to do so, and then make up a rule allowing you to hit a shield that isn't a model.

Doesn't the rule for Void Shields directing you to hit the shield instead of the unit cover both of those?

Hitting something instead of something else surely means the hits on the first thing are ignored and you are told to hit the shield instead of the unit really does look like a permission to hit something that isn't a model.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
discard the number of hits with no permission to do so, and then make up a rule allowing you to hit a shield that isn't a model.

Doesn't the rule for Void Shields directing you to hit the shield instead of the unit cover both of those?

Hitting something instead of something else surely means the hits on the first thing are ignored and you are told to hit the shield instead of the unit really does look like a permission to hit something that isn't a model.

OK, but how do you know how many hits you have on the shield? Nobody in the "1 hit per shot" group has cited an actual rule allowing you to re-calculate the number of hits generated by a shooting attack (which is what gets transferred).

Ok that is a little bit of a problem but not an insurmountable one.

The word transferred isn't used in the rule so that isn't any help.
It seems to me that if a template hits a shield instead of the unit then it will generate a single hit on the shield, simply because it is a single round.
A Thunderfire cannon for example would get 4 hits (if each template lands over a model or building of course)

Yes I agree this is not laid out explicitly but then again neither is the transference notion, it is just the most logical resolution to my mind.

About the nearest you get is with the blast templates in buildings, if it scatters to a different level you hit what is on that level instead, that doesn't mean you take the hit from the original level and apply them to the new level, you just recalculate the new number of hits. It's a bit out there but pretty much all we have to go off atm.

 Happyjew wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
discard the number of hits with no permission to do so, and then make up a rule allowing you to hit a shield that isn't a model.

Doesn't the rule for Void Shields directing you to hit the shield instead of the unit cover both of those?

Hitting something instead of something else surely means the hits on the first thing are ignored and you are told to hit the shield instead of the unit really does look like a permission to hit something that isn't a model.

OK, but how do you know how many hits you have on the shield? Nobody in the "1 hit per shot" group has cited an actual rule allowing you to re-calculate the number of hits generated by a shooting attack (which is what gets transferred).

Rather than saying "which is what gets transferred", which I think is confusing to many people as that is not used in the rules ("transfer"), what people should be saying is that there is no rule allowing you to recalculate the number of hits from the shooting attack (which has already been determined, by the rules, prior to "instead" hitting the shield).

If you follow the rules, you have already calculated the number of hits before being told to hit the shield. You cannot go backwards and recalculate the number of hits at this point.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Ok that is a little bit of a problem but not an insurmountable one.

The word transferred isn't used in the rule so that isn't any help.
It seems to me that if a template hits a shield instead of the unit then it will generate a single hit on the shield, simply because it is a single round.
A Thunderfire cannon for example would get 4 hits (if each template lands over a model or building of course)

The part I underlined is not defined in the rules. We do not know how many rounds/projectiles/whatever a blast template represents. All we know is how many hits are generated by the number of models under the template.
You have already determined the number of hits prior to being told that it hits the shield instead. There is no permission, at all, to re-calculate those hits. Simply follow the instructions as laid out.

There is nothing any where that prohibits recalculating the hits and a very strong indication that you must.
If you hit something instead of something else then it's pretty clear that the first something hasn't been hit at all.

How many shots are fired by a single template is made very clear by them being described as "Heavy 1" or similar.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Why not?

There is nothing anywhere that says you can't

You need permission to do so, not denial to do so. There is no permission to recalculate hits after they have been calculated. Or have you found one that nobody else has?

and a very strong indication that you must.

The blast template in buildings? You are not recalculating hits when scattering to a different level. You scatter, then you calculate hits, then you roll to wound (and so on). You don't calculate hits, THEN scatter, then recalculate.
If that is your indication that you must, it is based on a false reading of the rules for templates/blasts and multi level buildings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Uptopdownunder wrote:

How many shots are fired by a single template is made very clear by them being described as "Heavy 1" or similar.

Yes, shots .. that does not tell us a "shot" is a "single round". "Shot" is an abstraction .. it entitles you to roll X dice to hit. Period. It is not a description of the shot itself (for example : a blast can be a hail of small projectiles scattering over a large area, OR it could just as easily be a single large projectile exploding on impact .. so to say a shot is a "single round" is not a rule, but a guess about fluff (and different for different weapons at that)). A "Heavy 1" blast simply means you use one template. Just as "Heavy 4" means 4 blast templates. It does not describe fluff (which is what saying "it is a single round" would be .. fluff)

Rorschach9 wrote:

You need permission to do so, not denial to do so. There is no permission to recalculate hits after they have been calculated. Or have you found one that nobody else has?

You are told to hit the shield INSTEAD of the unit, that is a permission to recalculate the hits.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:

You need permission to do so, not denial to do so. There is no permission to recalculate hits after they have been calculated. Or have you found one that nobody else has?

You are told to hit the shield INSTEAD of the unit, that is a permission to recalculate the hits.

How? You've calculated hits. You now hit the shield. With the number of hits already calculated in the sequence given. That is not a permission to recalculate. The (already calculated number of) hit(s) will now hit the shield instead of the target unit.

Rorschach9 wrote:

Yes, shots .. that does not tell us a "shot" is a "single round". "Shot" is an abstraction .. it entitles you to roll X dice to hit. Period. It is not a description of the shot itself (for example : a blast can be a hail of small projectiles scattering over a large area, OR it could just as easily be a single large projectile exploding on impact .. so to say a shot is a "single round" is not a rule, but a guess about fluff (and different for different weapons at that))

I game turns it make absolutely no difference what the actual projectile/hail of whatever actually is.
It's a pretty basic fundamental that Heavy 1 is a single round/shot/cannister/bomb/ whatever.

Do you agree that a single template hitting a single object generates a single hit?

Dammit, I reread the blast rules; I was remembering things incorrectly.
So with that, a blast certainly can cause bunches of hits on a single unit.

And RAW, I will have to admit it appears that a single blast can indeed inflict multiple hits upon a single shield equal to the number of hits it did on a unit(s) under the shield(s).

However there's no way in hell that was RAI, nor would I ever insist on playing it like the RAW which unfortunately appears to be stupid crappy for Void Shields. I could see PLENTY of T.O.s ruling that one shot can only ever take out 1 shield, just like 1 D table result can only kill 1 model, just like 1 Instant Death double wounding template hit can only kill 1 Swarms model.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:

Yes, shots .. that does not tell us a "shot" is a "single round". "Shot" is an abstraction .. it entitles you to roll X dice to hit. Period. It is not a description of the shot itself (for example : a blast can be a hail of small projectiles scattering over a large area, OR it could just as easily be a single large projectile exploding on impact .. so to say a shot is a "single round" is not a rule, but a guess about fluff (and different for different weapons at that))

I game turns it make absolutely no difference what the actual projectile/hail of whatever actually is.
It's a pretty basic fundamental that Heavy 1 is a single round/shot/cannister/bomb/ whatever.

Do you agree that a single template hitting a single object generates a single hit?

A single template covering one model in a target unit generates a single hit, yes.

And yes it makes no difference what it actually is. However, I am not the one that claimed "it will generate a single hit on the shield simply because it is a single round" (then using the TFC as an example stating Heavy 4 = 4 hits).

Rorschach9 wrote:
A single template covering one model in a target unit generates a single hit, yes.

So why then when the template is notionally "placed" over a void shield does it generate the number of hits that it would have had if it hit the thing it didn't hit?

Rorschach9 wrote:
And yes it makes no difference what it actually is. However, I am not the one that claimed "it will generate a single hit on the shield simply because it is a single round" (then using the TFC as an example stating Heavy 4 = 4 hits).

I don't know what you mean by that, I was simply illustrating that contrary to your assertion that the number of rounds isn't made apparent in the rules, it is.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:
A single template covering one model in a target unit generates a single hit, yes.

So why then when the template is notionally "placed" over a void shield does it generate the number of hits that it would have had if it hit the thing it didn't hit?

How do you determine the number of hits in the shooting attack prior to that shooting attack instead hitting the void shield?
Using the rules.

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield"

This clearly shows that you have to hit the target unit first and THEN instead you hit the shield. You have already calculated hits. Now you hit the shield instead. It's simply following the order of operations.
If you're talking about trying to hit the void shield itself with a blast (without ever targeting a unit inside the shield in the shooting attack), then that is another story altogether as the BRB does not provide rules for a blast to hit something that is not a unit.

"and hits a target" says nothing about placing the template and working out the number of models under it. All that is required is for a hit on the unit to be made.

Even if it did I still maintain that your belief that once "the hits have been calculated" they can't be recalculated is not presented in the rules anywhere.

We are simply told that if it hits a target then it doesn't hit the target at all it hits the shield, simple as that.

The BRB does give rules on how to resolve a hit against something that isn't a unit. It talks at length how to resolve hits against buildings, a very similar situation to this one.

So why then when the template is notionally "placed" over a void shield does it generate the number of hits that it would have had if it hit the thing it didn't hit? 

Three reasons firstly the shield has no physical presence. Secondly the shield is not a model so if you count the blast as covering the shield and only the shield it generates no hits on the shield. Finally you are never told to move or place the template anywhere other than its original spot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

"and hits a target" says nothing about placing the template and working out the number of models under it. All that is required is for a hit on the unit to be made

The way you determine if you have hit with a blast weapon is by placing the blast marker and counting models. That is what the blast rules tell us.

You can't recalculate huts without permission to do so. You hqve to show permission you have not so you can't do it.

 FlingitNow wrote:

So why then when the template is notionally "placed" over a void shield does it generate the number of hits that it would have had if it hit the thing it didn't hit? 

Three reasons firstly the shield has no physical presence. Secondly the shield is not a model so if you count the blast as covering the shield and only the shield it generates no hits on the shield. Finally you are never told to move or place the template anywhere other than its original spot.

All that would mean that despite hitting a target within the shield it would never have any effect on the void shield at all.
The void shield is very much a corporeal object that is hittable and has an armour value, the rules tell us that much clearly.

You are told that if you hit a target it hits the shield, so if "hitting a target" means "unit under the template where the template landed" then "hitting the shield instead" would mean "the template lands on the shield".

If the template doesn't land on the shield, how can the template hit it?
I think that much is clear in the rules as well, a template can't hit something that isn't underneath it.

The permission to recalculate hits is given by the direction to hit the shield instead of the target.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
"and hits a target" says nothing about placing the template and working out the number of models under it. All that is required is for a hit on the unit to be made.

Even if it did I still maintain that your belief that once "the hits have been calculated" they can't be recalculated is not presented in the rules anywhere.

How do you determine a templates hits? A "hit" (or hits) on the unit is determined by calculating the number of models under the blast marker.

And again, to your second point, because you require permission to recalculate the hits; There is none.

We are simply told that if it hits a target then it doesn't hit the target at all it hits the shield, simple as that.

So then, by your interpretation, we are told that there are no hits generated when a shield is in place as you cannot hit something that is not a unit.

The BRB does give rules on how to resolve a hit against something that isn't a unit. It talks at length how to resolve hits against buildings, a very similar situation to this one.

Against occupied buildings, not just buildings. Those rules then go on to tell us how to generate hits and wounds on the unit inside, whereas the void shield tells us that the shooting attack instead hits the shield. What is the shooting attack that hits the shield? Exactly what you calculated when you targeted and (generated a number of) hits (as per the rule) the unit under the shield.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Clearly there is a comprehension issue with regards to the meaning of several words being used within the rules and the understanding of abstract concepts. I'm going to bow out now.

RAW : Calculate hits on the unit, hit the shield that number of times instead.

HIWPI : However my opponent wants as I don't and won't likely ever be using one myself.

Actually the BRB rules covers all buildings, not just unoccupied ones. Only "unclaimed buildings" can't be attacked'

RAW : If the template hits a target , it hit the shield instead.

You'll note my RAW doesn't add in any words that aren't actually used in the actual rule.

Your RaW also doesn't state how many hits are caused and your interpretation forces blasts to do nothing to the shield ever.

A model is a defined thing in the rules what unit type does the shield model have? It must have one to be a model. Or is it simply counted as a model for template and blast weapon hits. If so please quote the rule that says this. Or is it treated as an occupied building (or using the SHA optional rules a claimed building) if so quote the rule that states this.

If you cant provide any of the above then a template placed over the shield does ZERO hits. This is how your interpretation interacts with the blast and template rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Your RaW also doesn't state how many hits are caused and your interpretation forces blasts to do nothing to the shield ever.

A model is a defined thing in the rules what unit type does the shield model have? It must have one to be a model. Or is it simply counted as a model for template and blast weapon hits. If so please quote the rule that says this. Or is it treated as an occupied building (or using the SHA optional rules a claimed building) if so quote the rule that states this.

If you cant provide any of the above then a template placed over the shield does ZERO hits. This is how your interpretation interacts with the blast and template rules.

The rules for void shield make it quite clear that a void shield can be hit by an attack and has an armour value, what more do you need?

 BlackTalos wrote:

If you hit the shield instead of the unit, certain shots will not generate all the hits they did when they hit the unit. Why?
Because the placement of the template was simply to clear the condition "And hits a target within the VS zone" as opposed to the template scattering off of any unit at all (and not generating a Hit at all).
Once you confirm a hit, you Instead hit the VS, and something like a Battlecannon will have 1 roll to pen/glance the shield.
If you read this thoroughly, you will see that the assault 5 weapon is still rolling 5 pen/glances, and none of this is inconsistent.

So you agree the Template/Blast will generate more than 1 hit.
Cite permission to recalculate the number of hits in the shooting attack please. Because as you declined to state, the shooting attack hits the shield instead.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Your RaW also doesn't state how many hits are caused and your interpretation forces blasts to do nothing to the shield ever.

A model is a defined thing in the rules what unit type does the shield model have? It must have one to be a model. Or is it simply counted as a model for template and blast weapon hits. If so please quote the rule that says this. Or is it treated as an occupied building (or using the SHA optional rules a claimed building) if so quote the rule that states this.

If you cant provide any of the above then a template placed over the shield does ZERO hits. This is how your interpretation interacts with the blast and template rules.

The rules for void shield make it quite clear that a void shield can be hit by an attack and has an armour value, what more do you need?

we need permission to treat the shield like a model (there isn't any) and since blast weapons are explicitly only ever allowed to cause hits on models (go read p6 of the rulebook) your interpretation falls on it's face with the first hurdle.

I need the things stated. Just because it can be hit and has an AV to resolve that hit against doesn't answer any of my questions. Remember it can be targeted can nit be hit by a to hit roll rolled against it and can not be drawn to LoS by anything.

 nutty_nutter wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Your RaW also doesn't state how many hits are caused and your interpretation forces blasts to do nothing to the shield ever.

A model is a defined thing in the rules what unit type does the shield model have? It must have one to be a model. Or is it simply counted as a model for template and blast weapon hits. If so please quote the rule that says this. Or is it treated as an occupied building (or using the SHA optional rules a claimed building) if so quote the rule that states this.

If you cant provide any of the above then a template placed over the shield does ZERO hits. This is how your interpretation interacts with the blast and template rules.

The rules for void shield make it quite clear that a void shield can be hit by an attack and has an armour value, what more do you need?

we need permission to treat the shield like a model (there isn't any) and since blast weapons are explicitly only ever allowed to cause hits on models (go read p6 of the rulebook) your interpretation falls on it's face with the first hurdle.

Are you suggesting that Void Shields simply can't be hit at all by templates so they have no effect against them ?

Because I'm really not understanding how you can take "if it hits a target, it hits the void shield instead" as not being a specific permission to hit the void shield.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Your RaW also doesn't state how many hits are caused and your interpretation forces blasts to do nothing to the shield ever.

A model is a defined thing in the rules what unit type does the shield model have? It must have one to be a model. Or is it simply counted as a model for template and blast weapon hits. If so please quote the rule that says this. Or is it treated as an occupied building (or using the SHA optional rules a claimed building) if so quote the rule that states this.

If you cant provide any of the above then a template placed over the shield does ZERO hits. This is how your interpretation interacts with the blast and template rules.

The rules for void shield make it quite clear that a void shield can be hit by an attack and has an armour value, what more do you need?

we need permission to treat the shield like a model (there isn't any) and since blast weapons are explicitly only ever allowed to cause hits on models (go read p6 of the rulebook) your interpretation falls on it's face with the first hurdle.

Are you suggesting that Void Shields simply can't be hit at all by templates so they have no effect against them ?

Because I'm really not understanding how you can take "if it hits a target, it hits the void shield instead" as not being a specific permission to hit the void shield.

Yes, the void shield is hit.
By the hits in the shooting attack that hit it instead of the target unit. If you require a recalculation, there's no rule allowing blasts or templates to generate any hits on something that isn't a model.