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Had a new twist on the Drake's Vector Strike come up yesterday. Curious what people here think. Here is the crux of the discussion we had.

1) The rules for Vector Strike state that a model that makes a Vector Strike counts as firing one weapon
2) The rules for Flyers give permission for a zooming flyer to shoot up to four of "its" weapons at full BS

Possible Conclusion: Since the Heldrake has only one weapon, when it Vector Strikes it must forfeit shooting its weapon in the subsequent shooting phase because it trades its autocannon/bale flamer shots for the Vector Strike hits. EDIT: The rule for zooming flyers does not give the Heldrake permission to trade an imaginary weapon that it could shoot if it had one in lieu of its autocannon/bale flamer. The Heldrake must count its assigned weapon as the one utilized in the vector strike.

This has come up many many times before.
It can fire four weapons, the vector strike counts as one. Three weapons remain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PanzerLeader wrote:
1) The rules for Vector Strike state that a model that makes a Vector Strike counts as firing one of "its" weapons

Not what the rule says.

"Counts as having already fired one weapon"

This is what it actually says.
So I'm afraid your argument is void.

 grendel083 wrote:
This has come up many many times before.
It can fire four weapons, the vector strike counts as one. Three weapons remain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PanzerLeader wrote:
1) The rules for Vector Strike state that a model that makes a Vector Strike counts as firing one of "its" weapons

Not what the rule says.

"Counts as having already fired one weapon"

This is what it actually says.
So I'm afraid your argument is void.

Thank you for the correction. I will edit the OP. But it doesn't change the basic premise which is that the zooming flyer rule only gives it permission to shoot up to four of its weapons at full BS. If a flyer is armed with only one weapon, the rule doesn't give it permission to shoot three imaginary weapons it does not have in addition to its base single weapon.

The Flyer has permission to fire 4 weapons.
VS is one weapon.
The Flamer is another.

It's fired 2 weapons. 2 < 4.

I'll try and give you an example to help understand where Rigeld and Gren are coming from:

A FMC can also Vector Strike, and has permission to fire 2 weapons in the shooting phase. VS counts as having fired a weapon. Are you saying that a FMC without a shooting weapon would be unable to VS?

PanzerLeader wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
This has come up many many times before.
It can fire four weapons, the vector strike counts as one. Three weapons remain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PanzerLeader wrote:
1) The rules for Vector Strike state that a model that makes a Vector Strike counts as firing one of "its" weapons

Not what the rule says.

"Counts as having already fired one weapon"

This is what it actually says.
So I'm afraid your argument is void.

Thank you for the correction. I will edit the OP. But it doesn't change the basic premise which is that the zooming flyer rule only gives it permission to shoot up to four of its weapons at full BS. If a flyer is armed with only one weapon, the rule doesn't give it permission to shoot three imaginary weapons it does not have in addition to its base single weapon.

It changes the premise completely!
There is no reference to "it's" weapon.
You can fire 4 weapons.
Vector strike counts as firing "one" weapon. 3 left.
There's no "it's", the premise is incorrect.

rigeld2 wrote:The Flyer has permission to fire 4 weapons.
VS is one weapon.
The Flamer is another.

It's fired 2 weapons. 2 < 4.

A flyer has permission to fire 4 of its weapons at full BS. For example, a storm raven can shoot a multi-melta, a lascannon, and two missiles at BS4 and both hurricane bolter sponsons as snap shots at BS1. The Heldrake has only one weapon. Vector Strike aside for a second, the Heldrake can move in Zoom mood and shot its weapon at full BS because it would normally be allowed to shot up to four of its weapons. Since 1 < 4, there are no issues.

Vector Strike requires you count one of your weapons as being fired and the Heldrake's weapons do not have permission to shoot twice in a given turn. The flyer rule does not give you explicit permission to shoot weapons you don't actually have by the rules. Hence, if the Drake Vector Strikes, then the flamer/autocannon counts as having been fired. It therefore cannot shot the same weapon again later in the turn. This is a very RAW argument that was presented to me last night as a pre-tournament clarification question. The crux of the the discussion centers around the possessive "its" in the flyers rule. A flyer "may shoot up to four of its weapons at full BS." A flyer with less than four weapons does not have permission to shoot four weapons. It has permission to shoot the number of weapons it is equipped with per the base shooting rules for vehicles and up to four of those may fire at full BS.

Quanar wrote:I'll try and give you an example to help understand where Rigeld and Gren are coming from:

A FMC can also Vector Strike, and has permission to fire 2 weapons in the shooting phase. VS counts as having fired a weapon. Are you saying that a FMC without a shooting weapon would be unable to VS?

I'd have to take a close look at the wording under FMCs when I get home from work. This discussion came up as a specific clarification question for a tournament next month and I'm having a hard time getting past the base RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
This has come up many many times before.
It can fire four weapons, the vector strike counts as one. Three weapons remain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PanzerLeader wrote:
1) The rules for Vector Strike state that a model that makes a Vector Strike counts as firing one of "its" weapons

Not what the rule says.

"Counts as having already fired one weapon"

This is what it actually says.
So I'm afraid your argument is void.

Thank you for the correction. I will edit the OP. But it doesn't change the basic premise which is that the zooming flyer rule only gives it permission to shoot up to four of its weapons at full BS. If a flyer is armed with only one weapon, the rule doesn't give it permission to shoot three imaginary weapons it does not have in addition to its base single weapon.

It changes the premise completely!
There is no reference to "it's" weapon.
You can fire 4 weapons.
Vector strike counts as firing "one" weapon. 3 left.
There's no "it's", the premise is incorrect.

Ok, here is the full quote: "Zooming Flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full Ballistic Skill if they have moved at either Combat Speed or Cruising Speed that turn. So yes, I misremembered the ownership component. Its "their", not "its." It does not invalidate the premise that you cannot shoot an imaginary weapon.

The rules for how many weapons any flyer can shoot are governed by the base vehicle rules that you can shoot ALL your weapons every turn. How many of them fire at full ballistic skill and how many must snap shoot is determined by a number of factors, but primarily the vehicles movement in the preceeding movement phase when compared to its vehicle type(s). The "Zooming and Shooting" subparagraph of the Flyers rules tell you how many weapons you may fire at full BS if the model is already equipped with them.

You are wrong in the assertion that a flyer can fire four weapons. It may fire "up to four weapons at full BS." As I showed earlier, a flyer with 6 weapons can fire all six in a single shooting phase but two of them would have to snap shoot. A flyer with one weapon can only ever shoot one weapon. Vector Strike counts as shooting a weapon. You have not shown permission for the Vector Strike to count for a weapon you do not actually have equipped on the model.

Try the search function. You will find numerous threads about this very topic.

You will also see that with very few exceptions everyone agrees that VS does not tell you that one of your specific weapons has fired, only that you count as firing 1 weapon. You may fire 3 weapons after a VS. it doesn't matter if you only have 1.

VS is a weapon. Baleflamer is a weapon. No restrictions are ignored or broken.

 BarBoBot wrote:
Try the search function. You will find numerous threads about this very topic.

You will also see that with very few exceptions everyone agrees that VS does not tell you that one of your specific weapons has fired, only that you count as firing 1 weapon. You may fire 3 weapons after a VS. it doesn't matter if you only have 1.

Except no where does a flyer receive permission to shoot more weapons than it has. Here are the relevant quotes from the Vehicle rules:

"A vehicle that moved at Combat Speed may fire a single weapon using its full Ballistic Skill. The vehicle can also fire Sanp Shots with other weapons if it wishes. Though, of course, it cannot fire any weapons that cannot be fired as Snap Shots."

"A vehicle that moved at Cruising Speed can only make Snap Shots, as above."

"Zooming Flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full Ballistic Skill if they have moved at either Combat or Cruising Speed that turn."

A vehicle (which the Heldrake clearly is) can always fire its full complement of weapons. The vehicle shooting rules tell us how many of them can fire at full BS and how many must snap shoot. Can a flyer with 6 weapons shoot all six? Yes, but two of them will have to Snap Shoot. There is nothing in the flyer rules that gives a vehicle permission to shoot more weapons than it has or limits it to shooting less weapons than it has. Otherwise, a storm raven would never be able to shoot more than 4 weapons.

I agree that VS does not require a specific weapon. On a model with multiple weapons, the owning player may elect which one not to shoot. The problem is that the Heldrake has only one weapon. Since it only has one weapon, the count as fired weapon must be that one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
VS is a weapon. Baleflamer is a weapon. No restrictions are ignored or broken.

Vector Strike is not a weapon. It is a USR which states "When Swooping, this model may savage its prey. At the end of the Movement phase, nominate one unengaged enemy unit the model has moved over that turn. This unit may even be an enemy flyer. That unit takes D3+1 hits, resolved at the model's unmodified Strength and AP3, using Random Allocation. Against vehicles, these hits are resolved against the target's side armour. No cover saves are allowed against these hits. A model that made a Vector Strike in its Movement phase counts as already having fired one weapon in its following shooting phase. However, any additional weapons it fires that turn can choose a different target to that of the Vector Strike."

A vehicle can normally shoot all its weapons. The drake has only a single weapon. If the Heldrake vector strikes, it counts as having fired that single weapon. I have yet to find permission for a Flyer to shoot more or less weapons than it comes equipped with by its rules.

In my opinion "counts as" =/= must replace a weapon. Even though you count VS as firing a weapon where do the rules say that you must replace a weapon in order to fire it. It would be the same as a FMC many do not have shooting weapons (barring psychic powers) and can still VS. You do not replace a weapon with a VS you simply count 1 additional when you enter the shooting phase. Therefore if there were ever a flyer with 4+ weapons and vector strike it could VS in the movement phase, fire 3 weapons at full BS and snap shot (if possible) any remaining weapons.

PanzerLeader wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
Try the search function. You will find numerous threads about this very topic.

You will also see that with very few exceptions everyone agrees that VS does not tell you that one of your specific weapons has fired, only that you count as firing 1 weapon. You may fire 3 weapons after a VS. it doesn't matter if you only have 1.

Except no where does a flyer receive permission to shoot more weapons than it has. Here are the relevant quotes from the Vehicle rules:

"A vehicle that moved at Combat Speed may fire a single weapon using its full Ballistic Skill. The vehicle can also fire Sanp Shots with other weapons if it wishes. Though, of course, it cannot fire any weapons that cannot be fired as Snap Shots."

"A vehicle that moved at Cruising Speed can only make Snap Shots, as above."

"Zooming Flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full Ballistic Skill if they have moved at either Combat or Cruising Speed that turn."

A vehicle (which the Heldrake clearly is) can always fire its full complement of weapons. The vehicle shooting rules tell us how many of them can fire at full BS and how many must snap shoot. Can a flyer with 6 weapons shoot all six? Yes, but two of them will have to Snap Shoot. There is nothing in the flyer rules that gives a vehicle permission to shoot more weapons than it has or limits it to shooting less weapons than it has. Otherwise, a storm raven would never be able to shoot more than 4 weapons.

I agree that VS does not require a specific weapon. On a model with multiple weapons, the owning player may elect which one not to shoot. The problem is that the Heldrake has only one weapon. Since it only has one weapon, the count as fired weapon must be that one.

I don't see how what the rule says makes the heldrake only allowed to shoot once. The entry clearly says it can shoot up to 4 of its weapons.

 CrownAxe wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
Try the search function. You will find numerous threads about this very topic.

You will also see that with very few exceptions everyone agrees that VS does not tell you that one of your specific weapons has fired, only that you count as firing 1 weapon. You may fire 3 weapons after a VS. it doesn't matter if you only have 1.

Except no where does a flyer receive permission to shoot more weapons than it has. Here are the relevant quotes from the Vehicle rules:

"A vehicle that moved at Combat Speed may fire a single weapon using its full Ballistic Skill. The vehicle can also fire Sanp Shots with other weapons if it wishes. Though, of course, it cannot fire any weapons that cannot be fired as Snap Shots."

"A vehicle that moved at Cruising Speed can only make Snap Shots, as above."

"Zooming Flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full Ballistic Skill if they have moved at either Combat or Cruising Speed that turn."

A vehicle (which the Heldrake clearly is) can always fire its full complement of weapons. The vehicle shooting rules tell us how many of them can fire at full BS and how many must snap shoot. Can a flyer with 6 weapons shoot all six? Yes, but two of them will have to Snap Shoot. There is nothing in the flyer rules that gives a vehicle permission to shoot more weapons than it has or limits it to shooting less weapons than it has. Otherwise, a storm raven would never be able to shoot more than 4 weapons.

I agree that VS does not require a specific weapon. On a model with multiple weapons, the owning player may elect which one not to shoot. The problem is that the Heldrake has only one weapon. Since it only has one weapon, the count as fired weapon must be that one.

I don't see how what the rule says makes the heldrake only allowed to shoot once. The entry clearly says it can shoot up to 4 of its weapons.

Up to 4 at full Ballistic Skill. You can't arbitrarily delete half the sentence. As a base rule, vehicles may shoot all their weapons once (barring special rules providing otherwise). The Heldrake counts as having fired one weapon when it vector strikes and has no additional weapons to shoot.

@ Firepainter: I'm not arguing "count as" equals "replace." You simply shoot one less weapon. Further, the VS rule does not specify it has to be a weapon you could normally fire only at full BS. If the Storm Raven had Vector Strike, you could shoot 4 weapons at full BS and Snap Shoot any one weapon eligible to normally do so and simply forgo snap shooting a final weapon to comply with the VS USR. If an FMC has only one shooting weapon and does a vector strike, can it shoot that weapon? No, because it could normally shoot only one weapon and counts as having done so already. The same applies here.

It is not a matter of shooting one less weapon, it is a matter of having one less weapon to shoot.

You may fire up to 4(the full BS part doesn't really matter as it is assumptive in the discussion) as a Base rule, The Vector Strike counts as Firing a weapon; you now have 1 less weapon from the 4 to fire, it does not matter how many weapons the Flyer has.

PanzerLeader,
The last section of your post is where you are encountering the problem: You make the assumption that the weapon 'counted as being fired' has to be the BaleFlamer or Autocannon. It isn't a bad assumption, if this game was based around pure logic it would be 100% correct. This game is not made on logic though, so for this assumption to be correct from a Rule as Written perspective Vector Strike would have to name the weapon being fired in order to prevent it from being selected in the following shooting phase. As the rule simply counts as firing a weapon, and fliers have permission to fire up to four weapons at full ballistic strength, nothing is stopping the Heldrake from selecting the Baleflamer to fire as one of it's 2-4 other weapons.

To try and explain this with a simple question:
A flying monstrous creature with weapons A and B carries out a vector strike, which exact weapon are they forbidden from firing the following shooting phase?

PanzerLeader wrote:
Up to 4 at full Ballistic Skill. You can't arbitrarily delete half the sentence. As a base rule, vehicles may shoot all their weapons once (barring special rules providing otherwise). The Heldrake counts as having fired one weapon when it vector strikes and has no additional weapons to shoot.

Clearly you yourself know your argument is no footing if you are just going to strawman me by arguing the semantics of my question even though it is very obvious what I am saying.

JinxDragon wrote:
PanzerLeader,
The last section of your post is where you are encountering the problem: You make the assumption that the weapon 'counted as being fired' has to be the BaleFlamer or Autocannon. It isn't a bad assumption, if this game was based around pure logic it would be 100% correct. This game is not made on logic though, so for this assumption to be correct from a Rule as Written perspective Vector Strike would have to name the weapon being fired in order to prevent it from being selected in the following shooting phase. As the rule simply counts as firing a weapon, and fliers have permission to fire up to four weapons at full ballistic strength, nothing is stopping the Heldrake from selecting the Baleflamer to fire as one of it's 2-4 other weapons.

To try and explain this with a simple question:
A flying monstrous creature with weapons A and B carries out a vector strike, which exact weapon are they forbidden from firing the following shooting phase?

The owning player may choose A or B because it is not specified. Now, here is my counter question: The same FMC has only weapon A. Can it fire weapon A after making a vector strike?

Yes because as a FMC it may fire 2 weapons in the shooting phase and a vector strike counts as one of the 2.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
It is not a matter of shooting one less weapon, it is a matter of having one less weapon to shoot.

You may fire up to 4(the full BS part doesn't really matter as it is assumptive in the discussion) as a Base rule, The Vector Strike counts as Firing a weapon; you now have 1 less weapon from the 4 to fire, it does not matter how many weapons the Flyer has.

Why wouldn't it matter? The rules no where give a model permission to shoot a weapon it does not have. The full BS part matters in context because as I have demonstrated, a flyer with more than 4 weapons may shoot more than 4 weapons. A flyer with less than 4 weapons cannot possibly shoot 4 weapons.

PanzerLeader,
Using Rules as Written, where are you getting permission to make the chose as to which weapon 'counts as being fired?'

As for your answer:
Yes
The Flying monstrous creature has permission to fire two weapons per each shooting phage, as per the Unit Type entry for Flying Monstrous Creatures. The action of 'Vector Striking' counts as having fired a weapon, as per it's own verbiage, when calculating how many weapons a model can fire during the Shooting Phase. As the flying monstrous creature has permission to fire one additional weapon, and is in possession of a weapon that hasn't yet 'fired,' it has permission to fire said weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PanzerLeader,
It is possible for a model to have permission to fire more weapons then they possess, every 'unarmed' Monstrous Creature comes to mind as their Unit Type clearly states they can fire up to two weapons per Shooting Phase. It isn't the lack of permission which prevents them from carry out a shooting attack, but the simple fact the shooting attack sequence requires a weapon to be selected as part of the process. The number of maximum number of weapons this model can fire hasn't gone down to 'max carried,' it still would be 2 in this case, it is just the lack of a weapon to select which prevents maximum from being reached.

 FirePainter wrote:
Yes because as a FMC it may fire 2 weapons in the shooting phase and a vector strike counts as one of the 2.

The same FMC still only has 1 weapon, and did not vector strike. Can it fire that single weapon twice? After all it can fire 2 weapons in the shooting phase. This is the point Panz is trying to make. You can't fire the same weapon twice, and VS is counted as firing that weapon. (I have no real opinion on it, i'm just trying to help clarify)

 deviantduck wrote:

 FirePainter wrote:
Yes because as a FMC it may fire 2 weapons in the shooting phase and a vector strike counts as one of the 2.

The same FMC still only has 1 weapon, and did not vector strike. Can it fire that single weapon twice? After all it can fire 2 weapons in the shooting phase. This is the point Panz is trying to make. You can't fire the same weapon twice, and VS is counted as firing that weapon. (I have no real opinion on it, i'm just trying to help clarify)

Except that's an invalid point and PL knows it - VS does not say that it replaces firing a weapon - it simply counts as firing a weapon

And since counts as must equal is, we know that Using VS is the same as firing a weapon. We have no permission or requirement to replace a weapon, so it simply counts as firing one of the models weapons. Which weapon? Vector Strike if course.

 deviantduck wrote:

 FirePainter wrote:
Yes because as a FMC it may fire 2 weapons in the shooting phase and a vector strike counts as one of the 2.

The same FMC still only has 1 weapon, and did not vector strike. Can it fire that single weapon twice? After all it can fire 2 weapons in the shooting phase. This is the point Panz is trying to make. You can't fire the same weapon twice, and VS is counted as firing that weapon. (I have no real opinion on it, i'm just trying to help clarify)

The bolded statement is incorrect. VS counts as firing a weapon no where are you required to determine what that weapon is or replace a weapon with VS.

So no, if a FMC has 1 shooting weapon and does not VS it can still only fire that weapon once as per the rules for shooting weapons. You can only shoot a weapons once unless specified in the models or weapons specific rules.

PanzerLeader wrote:
. EDIT: The rule for zooming flyers does not give the Heldrake permission to trade an imaginary weapon that it could shoot if it had one in lieu of its autocannon/bale flamer. The Heldrake must count its assigned weapon as the one utilized in the vector strike.

Please support this statement with rules. Actual rules, including citations. Especially the bolded sentence.

PanzerLeader wrote:
Had a new twist on the Drake's Vector Strike come up yesterday. Curious what people here think. Here is the crux of the discussion we had.

1) The rules for Vector Strike state that a model that makes a Vector Strike counts as firing one weapon
2) The rules for Flyers give permission for a zooming flyer to shoot up to four of "its" weapons at full BS

Possible Conclusion: Since the Heldrake has only one weapon, when it Vector Strikes it must forfeit shooting its weapon in the subsequent shooting phase because it trades its autocannon/bale flamer shots for the Vector Strike hits. EDIT: The rule for zooming flyers does not give the Heldrake permission to trade an imaginary weapon that it could shoot if it had one in lieu of its autocannon/bale flamer. The Heldrake must count its assigned weapon as the one utilized in the vector strike.

1). It COUNTS as firing a weapon. Do the VS rules say that VS replaces a vehicles weapon? Nope. It just counts a firing a weapon. No where in any sentence in the entire rulebook does anything tell you to use the VS in lieu of another weapon. I can see where you're coming from, but it's incorrect.
2). See 1.

The VS rule is: A model that made a Vector Strike
in its Movement phase counts as
having already fired one weapon in its
following Shooting phase. However, any
additional weapons it fires that turn can
choose a different target to that of the
Vector Strike.

If Vector Striking counts as firing a weapon, then vector strike is the "weapon" that has been fired. Since a Zooming Flyer can fire up to four weapons, it can fire three more. If the rule read "already fired on of its weapons in the following shooting phase" then you would be correct, but it doesn't, and you aren't.

For the "replaces a weapon" side, can a FMC with no ranged weapons Vector Strike? If so, what weapon does it replace?

Can a model with no ranged weapons run?

Hell drake does as hell drake pleases. I lol at this argument every time it comes up.

See not only can the hell drake vector strike your rhino, pop it open. It then can flame its contents if in range. It's a daemon possessed flying metal dragon. It doesn't care about logic or word play. It just is. Now the argument has been proved moot. So time to move on.

Lungpickle wrote:
Hell drake does as hell drake pleases. I lol at this argument every time it comes up.

See not only can the hell drake vector strike your rhino, pop it open. It then can flame its contents if in range. It's a daemon possessed flying metal dragon. It doesn't care about logic or word play. It just is. Now the argument has been proved moot. So time to move on.

+1 exaltedness.

PanzerLeader, we understand you don't enjoy getting clawed on the way in and Baleflamed afterwards, but you will just have to accept that the Drake can Vector Strike and then Baleflame (or more rarely unload the Hades AC). The vast majority consensus in friendly and tournament games is against you.

"Counts as having fired 1 weapon" just limits the amount of other weapons a Vector Striking flier could shoot to 3 more.